imperial militarization

[vakundok]

Maintenance may be a vastly less important matter in the SWU; with none of the exposure to the natural elements that afflicts modern military materiel.

With common multi- thousand g accelerations, continuous micro-meteor hits or shield usage? Interesting.
In TESB, the Avenger had quite a quantity of junk, hadn't it?

Yet the Invincible-class was quite competent in service after three thousand years.

As Connor Macleod and SirNitram answered (thanks) that class receieved a major rebuilt and was 'competent' only for a far less demanding task.

The upper limit of the militarization comes from maintenance. All ships has maintenance costs and those are raising exponentially with the age of the ship. And even an extremely well maintained ship has to be scrapped or completely rebuilt after 'some' time.

I think assigning to lower level tasks and solding them for a low amount of money is quite similar to scrapping. While you may be right in that SW ships can last (and still be potent for the original task) longer then the 100 years I assumed (based on that the Katana fleet was quite usable (while not top of the line after ~60 years), it is not clear how longer. So, I think, your question was answered, what about mines?
1.: Do you assume that the mentioned conditions require 'vastly less' (your words) maintenance as the environmental damage on a planet?
2.: Do you assume that the junk the Avenger released was not replenished as maintenance?

[Connor MacLeod]

And of course Primus is overlooking how massively overhauled the Vincies were. A full bloody third of her interior spaces were replaced with engines, just to keep up with smugglers! After all, why did the CSA buy them?

The technology itself is probably identical consistent across millenia (more than one source makes mention of the fact that the saem technologies like weapons, engines and shields have been in existence for thousands of years or more), but the "quality" of the technolgoy seems to differ somewhat between different time periods.

However, the fact that ships decades or even centuries old can be still considered to be fairly effective frontline warships indicates that the "difference" only becomes very noticable over millenia (ie why a Dreadnaught or VSD, which are centuries and decades old designs respectively, can still be viable warships, whereas something like the Invincible is not.) This is probably indicative of the actual rate of "advancement", or rather the improvement of technology in the Star Wars universe - much of the "advances" we typically see are more the result of either changes in application (gravity/repulsor/tractor beam technology applied for gravity well projectors or repulsor weaponry), scale (Death Star's superlaser and hypermatter reactor), or design trade-offs (ISD-1 vs ISD-2, or the "Defender" Star Destroyer.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Couldn't give you a page number, sorry. But it's possible I mixed up the Sovvies as being the new Sector-level command ships, nudging out the planned Executor run.

I don't necceesarily mean a page number. Was it supposedly under the ship entries itself, or did they mention it in one of the early chapters, or what?

Yea, I remembered that. Pity only eight or so got finished, according to the actual sources.

Only eight executors were finished? I've heard varying numbers (one WEG adventure journal estimated at least sixteen, and that was still fairly early in the EU, before WEG went under) - remember that Han argued there were "lots" of command ships, so even assuming only a handful of Executors were ever produced, there are certainly OTHER vessels nearly as large that could also have served in the command-vessel role.

[SirNitram]

Couldn't give you a page number, sorry. But it's possible I mixed up the Sovvies as being the new Sector-level command ships, nudging out the planned Executor run.

I don't necceesarily mean a page number. Was it supposedly under the ship entries itself, or did they mention it in one of the early chapters, or what?

I beleive it was the ship entries.

Yea, I remembered that. Pity only eight or so got finished, according to the actual sources.

Only eight executors were finished? I've heard varying numbers (one WEG adventure journal estimated at least sixteen, and that was still fairly early in the EU, before WEG went under) - remember that Han argued there were "lots" of command ships, so even assuming only a handful of Executors were ever produced, there are certainly OTHER vessels nearly as large that could also have served in the command-vessel role.

I don't debate for a second Executor-sized vessels existed, but the only reputable sources put it at 8 Executor-class. One WEG adventure journal.. The lowest source of the low.. Estimates sixteen, but no other source agrees with this. Certainly, we've only seen eight, and given the importance the Warlord-era placed on them, one would probably notice a whole extra set, let alone dozens of them.

[Illuminatus Primus]

What sources says sixteen were ever built? And its hardly unlikely that a bunch didn't get obliterated in the Imperial civil war after Endor; we are afterall counting for a lot of ships which were wiped out - to meet the Dodonna calc.

And to say only were built because we've only seen eight in the canon is a fallacy. By that logic we can only conclude there are as many Lancer-class frigates in the whole galaxy that we've directly observed. Its an argument from ignorance. We have no data so there could not be any. That's not valid.

Besides:

Executor, Lusankya, Intimidator, Anonymous BLACKSWORDCOM SSD #1, Anonymous BLACKSWORDCOM SSD #2, Brawl (later Iron Fist), Whelm, Aggressor, Terror, Guardian, Vengeance, Razor's Kiss, Reaper, Defiant, Knight Hammer, and Anonymous Isard's SSD.

That's 16. Excluding the definitively post-Endor SSDs gives 13.

Excluding vessels which might technically be (but probably are not) 8 km "Super-class" SSDs gives 9 or 10.

BTW, having scanned DESB three times, there's no such entry, Martin.

[Connor MacLeod]

I beleive it was the ship entries.

I haven't found anything specifically indicating 24 Eclipse or Sovereign per sector group. The closest was the Emperor's intention to build a "fleet" of Sovereigns. That *might* imply hundreds of ships if we based this on the ISB definition of "fleet" but thats hardly the 24 per Sector you were inferring.

I don't debate for a second Executor-sized vessels existed, but the only reputable sources put it at 8 Executor-class.

Do you have a source for that?

One WEG adventure journal.. The lowest source of the low.. Estimates sixteen, but no other source agrees with this.

I've seen figures as low as only four being built, so it varies from source to source. However, unless your reference explicitly mentions only "eight ever being produced" within a certain timeframe, it serves at best as a lower limit. The CTD figure implies much greater numbers (of "battleship/command ships, not neccearily just Executor-class"), and the industrial capacity could certainly cover that.

I would point out as well that we know the Trade Federation could deploy hundreds if not thousands of multi-mile diameter battleships (and being three-fourths of a kilometer in height.) to a single location, which would roughly coincide with the notion of thousands of "battleships' at a minimum. There's also Han's statement about there being alot of "command ships" We know other "Executor-like" vessels existed - Giel's flagship, the Jerec's Vengeance, the 8-mile "Super Star Destroyer", that "Star Dreadnought" Curtis invented for the AOTC-ICS, etc. And the TESB novelization Implied that in addition to the Executor and its escorts, ,Vader had "twenty" other battleships under his command (which were not referring to ISDs, as Needa's image and the image of Vader's escorts were distinctly separate from the "twenty battleship commanders.)

Besides by what is it estimated that the SWAJ are somehow lower on the hierarchy than any other WEG or EU material? I don't buy much into the notion of "fan-ranked" sources.

Certainly, we've only seen eight, and given the importance the Warlord-era placed on them, one would probably notice a whole extra set, let alone dozens of them.

Depends on the era we're talking about, wouldn't it? Prior to Dark Empire we're talking about Palpatine hamstringing the Warlords (including Thrawn - especially Thrawn) as much as he can while he pulls his own forces back into the Deep Core in preparation for his own galaxy-wide assault (which would require *substantial* naval force on his parrt.)

The same logic could be said for the supposed existencec of tens of millions or hundreds of millions of starships that supposedly exist, including the "larger than ISD" types. Even if there were just tens of thousands of ISDs, how is it that your average Warlord might only have a handful?

[Illuminatus Primus]

The four Executor's I believe refers to the "generation" of warship construction to which the Executor, the Brawl, the Lusankya, (and the Terror?) belonged. There were subsequent construction runs.

As for fan-ranking, I used to rank things within the official rankings according to "reliability." But that really is a blanket-treatment. Reliability must be assessed on an individual basis.

As for large calculations, its pretty sensible considering the sheer scale of the galaxy and the size of some member states and private corporations' military apparatus (Publius has noted that TaggeCo. was an equal partner with the strategic forces of the Empire and the local Oversector in the operations following the Battle of Yavin in the Gordian Reach.)

Furthermore, the basic thrust is that many large vessels were very rapidly recalled or trashed in a heat of very intense civil war. If you notice, the warlords we hear about are either survivors and thus those who are mostly likely to be ground down by fighting (Teradoc, Harsk, etc.), or guys on the Outer Rim, which would have a smaller fiefdom to drawn from in the first place (Kaine, Drommel, etc.) or both.

And then there's the Dodonna calc.

[Enforcer Talen]

conner, by the time the warlords starting going, 99% of the military had destroyed itself.

[SirNitram]

I beleive it was the ship entries.

I haven't found anything specifically indicating 24 Eclipse or Sovereign per sector group. The closest was the Emperor's intention to build a "fleet" of Sovereigns. That *might* imply hundreds of ships if we based this on the ISB definition of "fleet" but thats hardly the 24 per Sector you were inferring.

Hrm. Conceeded and withdrawn, until I find where I got such a precise figure. You'd think if my mind was playing tricks on me, it wouldn't give exacting numbers, wouldn't it?

I don't debate for a second Executor-sized vessels existed, but the only reputable sources put it at 8 Executor-class.

Do you have a source for that?

Naming them off, now that I stop and look around for the quote. So yea, it could be sixteen.

One WEG adventure journal.. The lowest source of the low.. Estimates sixteen, but no other source agrees with this.

I've seen figures as low as only four being built, so it varies from source to source. However, unless your reference explicitly mentions only "eight ever being produced" within a certain timeframe, it serves at best as a lower limit. The CTD figure implies much greater numbers (of "battleship/command ships, not neccearily just Executor-class"), and the industrial capacity could certainly cover that.

It does not, so I withdraw the statement they must be only eight. Sixteen isn't too much of a stretch either way, though if you have the exact quote, that'd be grand.

I would point out as well that we know the Trade Federation could deploy hundreds if not thousands of multi-mile diameter battleships (and being three-fourths of a kilometer in height.) to a single location, which would roughly coincide with the notion of thousands of "battleships' at a minimum. There's also Han's statement about there being alot of "command ships" We know other "Executor-like" vessels existed - Giel's flagship, the Jerec's Vengeance, the 8-mile "Super Star Destroyer", that "Star Dreadnought" Curtis invented for the AOTC-ICS, etc. And the TESB novelization Implied that in addition to the Executor and its escorts, ,Vader had "twenty" other battleships under his command (which were not referring to ISDs, as Needa's image and the image of Vader's escorts were distinctly separate from the "twenty battleship commanders.)

As I said, it's not a matter of ships this size being built. As the Trade Fed showed, it's apparently not much to deploy lots of hulls of a given size. Quality of hulls is quite a different story(Isn't there some indication the much smaller Acclamators were doing a number of TradeFed Battleships in the AOTC novel?).

Besides by what is it estimated that the SWAJ are somehow lower on the hierarchy than any other WEG or EU material? I don't buy much into the notion of "fan-ranked" sources.

True, true. Falling into the trap of being a pretentious, arrogant asswipe who thinks he can dictate canon.

Certainly, we've only seen eight, and given the importance the Warlord-era placed on them, one would probably notice a whole extra set, let alone dozens of them.

Depends on the era we're talking about, wouldn't it? Prior to Dark Empire we're talking about Palpatine hamstringing the Warlords (including Thrawn - especially Thrawn) as much as he can while he pulls his own forces back into the Deep Core in preparation for his own galaxy-wide assault (which would require *substantial* naval force on his parrt.)

Definately; just take a look at images of Byss and you'll see a navy that absolutely outstrips every image from the movies or novels. This might, in part, explain why the Imperial economy could support producing millions of Imperators, thousands of Executors, and yet didn't.

The same logic could be said for the supposed existencec of tens of millions or hundreds of millions of starships that supposedly exist, including the "larger than ISD" types. Even if there were just tens of thousands of ISDs, how is it that your average Warlord might only have a handful?

My logic in referring to the warlord era is primarily the amount of fuss the Executor's kicked up. But I do admit I was hasty in declaring that even sixteen would be overmuch.

[SirNitram]

The four Executor's I believe refers to the "generation" of warship construction to which the Executor, the Brawl, the Lusankya, (and the Terror?) belonged. There were subsequent construction runs.

Rather obvious, given we have names for eight Executors...

As for fan-ranking, I used to rank things within the official rankings according to "reliability." But that really is a blanket-treatment. Reliability must be assessed on an individual basis.

Pretentious bullshit. If one applied these standards to real science, people would be throwing out all measurements of Venus movement, because of it's retrograde movement. I don't know where you learned science and logic, but the only theories worth a damn incorporate all evidence, not toss it out.

As for large calculations, its pretty sensible considering the sheer scale of the galaxy and the size of some member states and private corporations' military apparatus (Publius has noted that TaggeCo. was an equal partner with the strategic forces of the Empire and the local Oversector in the operations following the Battle of Yavin in the Gordian Reach.)

No, the sensible thing to do is look for statements from knowledge characters. Like Pelleaon stating, bluntly, there were 25,000 ISD's. While there is obviously a margin for error there(Particularly given the speed at which ISD's were being made and blown up during the height of the fighting), it's pure Psudeocreationist bullshit to go 'Well, it could be this, but it's really this number, alot different.'

Furthermore, the basic thrust is that many large vessels were very rapidly recalled or trashed in a heat of very intense civil war. If you notice, the warlords we hear about are either survivors and thus those who are mostly likely to be ground down by fighting (Teradoc, Harsk, etc.), or guys on the Outer Rim, which would have a smaller fiefdom to drawn from in the first place (Kaine, Drommel, etc.) or both.

I'm still skeptical about lots of Executor-class vessels vanishing with nary a word.

And then there's the Dodonna calc.

...Which is entirely about firepower, not about fleet numbers.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Pretentious bullshit. If one applied these standards to real science, people would be throwing out all measurements of Venus movement, because of it's retrograde movement. I don't know where you learned science and logic, but the only theories worth a damn incorporate all evidence, not toss it out.

Nice hunting for strawmen, dipshit.

His "fan-ranking" remark was in response to your "lowest of the low" remark. You see, you don't actually know that much about SW EU and you just fabricated that bit about WEG Adventure Guides.

You can't find it. Anywhere.

Besides, like it goes without saying that some sources have been less reliable historically than others. WEG for example fucks up their stats on essentially every ship they ever wrote them on if we accept the AOTC ICS paradigm (for example the defense and shield stats are compressed often to within an order of magnitude, just like weapons, where we see in AOTC ICS that the Acclamator is actually many orders of magnitude greater than its diminutive cousins).

No, the sensible thing to do is look for statements from knowledge characters. Like Pelleaon stating, bluntly, there were 25,000 ISD's. While there is obviously a margin for error there(Particularly given the speed at which ISD's were being made and blown up during the height of the fighting), it's pure Psudeocreationist bullshit to go 'Well, it could be this, but it's really this number, alot different.'

Yet the WEG Sourcebooks say it should be higher. Despite your bullshitting to the contrary. And besides, there were thousands of other Star Destroyers, and easily thousands in orbit around Byss alone, if not many more than that.

The fact is that a sector contains 24 ISDs, and there are thousands of these groups. So there must be more the 48,000.

Mike has pointed out that the EU novels are historical sources; and therefore can be viewed in terms of bias and limitation (esp. the further they are from the films - I believe he noted due to the lack of cross-reference with film that the NJO might be highly inaccurate, and likewise with ancient materials like the Great Hyperspace War). We're looking at a book pair that pegs the Republic and Empire only spanning a quarter of the galactic disk. There's a systematic underestimation of scale, and therefore, for the historian behind the book to have fucked up his estimates is hardly surprising.

Especially when a previous source, taking place concurrently with the films seems to agree with the scale of construction seen in the movies more realistically.

Either that, or the ISD is mostly a Rim phenomenon and the gap is filled by other, similar designs. Either way it satisfies common sense.

I'm still skeptical about lots of Executor-class vessels vanishing with nary a word.

Who the fuck cares about your opinion? Strictly speaking there's no evidence regarding possible other Executors, so it would not contradict anything for them to exist. Therefore if they did it would be no more "incorrect" than if they did not exist.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, which is what you are acting when you treat the figure as a limit (its only a lower limit, really).

...Which is entirely about firepower, not about fleet numbers.

Well, moron, you kind of need a lot of ships to fulfill the quote about comparisons to the Death Star's firepower.

[SirNitram]

Pretentious bullshit. If one applied these standards to real science, people would be throwing out all measurements of Venus movement, because of it's retrograde movement. I don't know where you learned science and logic, but the only theories worth a damn incorporate all evidence, not toss it out.

Nice hunting for strawmen, dipshit.

His "fan-ranking" remark was in response to your "lowest of the low" remark. You see, you don't actually know that much about SW EU and you just fabricated that bit about WEG Adventure Guides.

You can't find it. Anywhere.

I fabricated what, a claim I challenged? That'd be pretty impressive. So my psychic powers have developed to the point where I can make Conner make a claim, and then I dispute it, and I made the whole thing up?

No, the sensible thing to do is look for statements from knowledge characters. Like Pelleaon stating, bluntly, there were 25,000 ISD's. While there is obviously a margin for error there(Particularly given the speed at which ISD's were being made and blown up during the height of the fighting), it's pure Psudeocreationist bullshit to go 'Well, it could be this, but it's really this number, alot different.'

Yet the WEG Sourcebooks say it should be higher. Despite your bullshitting to the contrary. And besides, there were thousands of other Star Destroyers, and easily thousands in orbit around Byss alone, if not many more than that.

Thousands of Star Destroyers? Sure. I've personally estimated millions of SD's. Most of them Victories, based on their widespread use by planetary defense groups.

As for the WEG books saying it should be higher, are you using the OOB, the bit stated in the text to be goals, not yet attained? Or what?

The fact is that a sector contains 24 ISDs, and there are thousands of these groups. So there must be more the 48,000.

Nice try. Prove all sector groups are filled. Sorry, I take a statement from an admiral to be higher than fan calculations. While I do not doubt for a second the proposed and planned run for the Imperator was in the millions(Well beyond what's needed to fill the sector fleet requirement), there is zero evidence it got past 25,000. If you have actual evidence to this nature, please post it.

BTW, when was it stated the Empire had thousands of sectors, and not a thousand?

I'm still skeptical about lots of Executor-class vessels vanishing with nary a word.

Who the fuck cares about your opinion? Strictly speaking there's no evidence regarding possible other Executors, so it would not contradict anything for them to exist. Therefore if they did it would be no more "incorrect" than if they did not exist.

Strictly speaking, there's no evidence against a fire-breathing, invisible, massless dragon in my garage. So it would not contradict anything for it to exist. Therefore it is not 'incorrect' for me to claim it does.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, which is what you are acting when you treat the figure as a limit (its only a lower limit, really).

And how many fire breathing dragons do you have?

...Which is entirely about firepower, not about fleet numbers.

Well, moron, you kind of need a lot of ships to fulfill the quote about comparisons to the Death Star's firepower.

Indeed you do! You need 25,000 ISD's capable of performing Base Delta Zero's on aqueaous(sp) planets. Of course, throwing in the millions of Acclamators, Victories, TradeFed BB's, Invincibles, and other such capital ships into the mix just pushes the numbers higher, but if we assume the ISD was the premeire vessel of her day, with the exception of far less numerous craft(A dozen or two Executors, the tiny number of Torpedo Spheres), it covers it nicely.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I fabricated what, a claim I challenged? That'd be pretty impressive. So my psychic powers have developed to the point where I can make Conner make a claim, and then I dispute it, and I made the whole thing up?

No, this:

One WEG adventure journal.. The lowest source of the low..

...is bullshit.

Thousands of Star Destroyers? Sure. I've personally estimated millions of SD's. Most of them Victories, based on their widespread use by planetary defense groups.

Yet Victories are rather sequestered in the remoter regions of the galaxy; the only coreward Victories we saw were those defending Coruscant.

Still, a quiet sector is estimated to have four troublesome worlds. And the Superiority Fleet (numbering six ISDs plus attendant warships) is the minimum takedown force for a planet (EGTVV). Coincidentally, the Sector Group minimum force level is almost exactly four Superiority Fleets plus the attached SGHQ squadrons.

So no, the SG figures should be refering to ISDs by the same sources own context. I admit there may have been some understrength SG, but you require the majority of sectors to be understrength in ISDs.

As for the WEG books saying it should be higher, are you using the OOB, the bit stated in the text to be goals, not yet attained? Or what?

It never says its unattained. That's your consistent fabrication. I've been dealing with your WEG bullshit a long time, and I own the ISB now. And it says NO SUCH THING.

Just like the Soveriegn/Eclipse bullshit.

Just like the AJ are the lowest of the low bullshit.

Since you like to continuously indicate I'm clueless and do not know what I'm talking about (despite the fact most of the particular facts you've mentioned in this thread are simply untrue), let's examine more closely.

While the organization and Order of Battle of a Sector Group has been outlined according to the numbers in these reports, these numbers can at best be considered averages. And in the wake of the Emperor’s command to mobilize the Imperial war machine, they may even be considered minimum levels of force. Also, the forces deployed in a given sector will depend upon the importance, size, and location of that sector.

Alright, average-to-minimum. So that discounts the majority of "thousands" being understrength.

The SGHQ figures show four Superiority Fleets, exactly as I anticipated. Each Superiority Fleet contains two Force Superiorities, that themselves each contain three Battle Squadrons.

Battle squadrons contain an Imperial-class Star Destroyer. There are other ships, but they matter little in the configuration. In addition to the Star Destroyer there are at least three lines, two attack and one pursuit line, for an average of 18 ships. If there is some system in the Empire that must be repressed, some force which must be run down, a battle squadron is the force of choice. Sending a battle squadron on a mission is the Navy’s way of showing that the job is of utmost importance.

This distinction is important - VSDs are described as being assigned to the latter of two types of heavy squadron.

Nice try. Prove all sector groups are filled.

Ah, so the majority of Sector Groups are going to be understrength?

While the organization and Order of Battle of a Sector Group has been outlined according to the numbers in these reports, these numbers can at best be considered averages. And in the wake of the Emperor’s command to mobilize the Imperial war machine, they may even be considered minimum levels of force.

That makes it impossible for the figures to be less than a majority of sectors.

Sorry, I take a statement from an admiral to be higher than fan calculations. While I do not doubt for a second the proposed and planned run for the Imperator was in the millions(Well beyond what's needed to fill the sector fleet requirement), there is zero evidence it got past 25,000. If you have actual evidence to this nature, please post it.

Your stance that the TISB is simply "hypotheticals" is total fabrication with no basis in fact.

And I don't trust the historical source which pegs the NR and Empire only occupying a quarter of the galaxy, in contradiction of EVERYTHING ELSE. The author of that historical document clearly systematically underballs scale.

BTW, when was it stated the Empire had thousands of sectors, and not a thousand?

A Sector Group can be expected to contain at least 2,400 ships, 24 of which are Star Destroyers, and another 1,600 combat starships. Thousands of Sector Groups are at the Emperor’s command as he seeks to bring the galaxy firmly under his control.

Sectors are grouped together into larger territorial entities called regions. The Empire has countless regions, which can contain from as few as three to upwards of thousands of sectors.

Strictly speaking, there's no evidence against a fire-breathing, invisible, massless dragon in my garage. So it would not contradict anything for it to exist. Therefore it is not 'incorrect' for me to claim it does.

Look, jackass. All I am pointing out is (your backpeddling notwithstanding), there is no upper limit on Executors. You have clearly championed this idea despite now cowering behind unfalsifiability in another strawman.

Yea, I remembered that. Pity only eight or so got finished, according to the actual sources.

I don't debate for a second Executor-sized vessels existed, but the only reputable sources put it at 8 Executor-class. One WEG adventure journal.. The lowest source of the low.. Estimates sixteen, but no other source agrees with this. Certainly, we've only seen eight,

My point is the SW EU is so incomplete as a true background source that to say, yup, this many appeared, and I'd say that's all that existed is stupid. Like I said, do you champion that the number of Lancer-class's that exist are limited to exactly the number we've seen so far?

The only bit more comical is you actually had precisely NO EVIDENCE during all that babbling.

And how many fire breathing dragons do you have?

Obviously I am not saying that the absence of evidence suggests that more must exist, I'm only saying that the scale of the Empire would make it likely that more could exist, and we obviously don't have the whole picture, so I'm not treating the number observed as an UPPER possible limit.

Like I said, are the only Lancer-class's built those we've seen?

Indeed you do! You need 25,000 ISD's capable of performing Base Delta Zero's on aqueaous(sp) planets. Of course, throwing in the millions of Acclamators, Victories, TradeFed BB's, Invincibles, and other such capital ships into the mix just pushes the numbers higher, but if we assume the ISD was the premeire vessel of her day, with the exception of far less numerous craft(A dozen or two Executors, the tiny number of Torpedo Spheres), it covers it nicely.

No, Ender destroyed your bullshit ages ago, because you warped the quote. Dodonna did not compare "time-averaged reactor output" between the Starfleet and the Death Star. He compared FIREPOWER.

This was already explained to you at length.

[SirNitram]

I fabricated what, a claim I challenged? That'd be pretty impressive. So my psychic powers have developed to the point where I can make Conner make a claim, and then I dispute it, and I made the whole thing up?

No, this:

One WEG adventure journal.. The lowest source of the low..

...is bullshit.

Ahhh. *Shrugs* I overreacted, as I said to Conner. Oh well.

Thousands of Star Destroyers? Sure. I've personally estimated millions of SD's. Most of them Victories, based on their widespread use by planetary defense groups.

Yet Victories are rather sequestered in the remoter regions of the galaxy; the only coreward Victories we saw were those defending Coruscant.

Could this be because politicians favor the Core worlds?

Still, a quiet sector is estimated to have four troublesome worlds. And the Superiority Fleet (numbering six ISDs plus attendant warships) is the minimum takedown force for a planet (EGTVV). Coincidentally, the Sector Group minimum force level is almost exactly four Superiority Fleets plus the attached SGHQ squadrons.

So no, the SG figures should be refering to ISDs by the same sources own context. I admit there may have been some understrength SG, but you require the majority of sectors to be understrength in ISDs.

And this is unrealistic why? I'm simply going with what evidence actually exists. That the fleets aren't filled out totally isn't at all unrealistic, given that the Empire was still militarizing steadily and on a heavy production footing.

As for the WEG books saying it should be higher, are you using the OOB, the bit stated in the text to be goals, not yet attained? Or what?

It never says its unattained. That's your consistent fabrication. I've been dealing with your WEG bullshit a long time, and I own the ISB now. And it says NO SUCH THING.

Just like the Soveriegn/Eclipse bullshit.

Just like the AJ are the lowest of the low bullshit.

Since you like to continuously indicate I'm clueless and do not know what I'm talking about (despite the fact most of the particular facts you've mentioned in this thread are simply untrue), let's examine more closely.

'Consistant fabrication'? Your paranoia is gripping you hard, Primey. I've not brought up the OOB in months, if ever, in this webboard.

While the organization and Order of Battle of a Sector Group has been outlined according to the numbers in these reports, these numbers can at best be considered averages. And in the wake of the Emperor’s command to mobilize the Imperial war machine, they may even be considered minimum levels of force. Also, the forces deployed in a given sector will depend upon the importance, size, and location of that sector.

Alright, average-to-minimum. So that discounts the majority of "thousands" being understrength.

...Once we totally discount the last sentence...

The SGHQ figures show four Superiority Fleets, exactly as I anticipated. Each Superiority Fleet contains two Force Superiorities, that themselves each contain three Battle Squadrons.

No disagreements there.

Battle squadrons contain an Imperial-class Star Destroyer. There are other ships, but they matter little in the configuration. In addition to the Star Destroyer there are at least three lines, two attack and one pursuit line, for an average of 18 ships. If there is some system in the Empire that must be repressed, some force which must be run down, a battle squadron is the force of choice. Sending a battle squadron on a mission is the Navy’s way of showing that the job is of utmost importance.

This distinction is important - VSDs are described as being assigned to the latter of two types of heavy squadron.

Not contested.

Nice try. Prove all sector groups are filled.

Ah, so the majority of Sector Groups are going to be understrength?

It's certainly a possibility. Given we have a concrete statement from a reliable source on the number of ISD's, and a minimum number of ISD's to fill all sector fleets, and they don't match up, the obvious implication is that there's understrength sector groups.

While the organization and Order of Battle of a Sector Group has been outlined according to the numbers in these reports, these numbers can at best be considered averages. And in the wake of the Emperor’s command to mobilize the Imperial war machine, they may even be considered minimum levels of force.

That makes it impossible for the figures to be less than a majority of sectors.

I like how you and the writer of this paragraph(In universe, of course) grant Palpatine some magic ability to say 'The military will be mobilized' and the fleets will fill to the bursting point. The command to mobilize the war machine will of course include increasing production. If the production is not finished, no, these numbers will not be attained.

But hey. I'm just doing the logical thing and including all availiable evidence. This is apparently taboo for you.

Sorry, I take a statement from an admiral to be higher than fan calculations. While I do not doubt for a second the proposed and planned run for the Imperator was in the millions(Well beyond what's needed to fill the sector fleet requirement), there is zero evidence it got past 25,000. If you have actual evidence to this nature, please post it.

Your stance that the TISB is simply "hypotheticals" is total fabrication with no basis in fact.

No, it's the logical outcome of looking at Pelleaon's statement and the ISB's requirements for far more ships than existed.

And I don't trust the historical source which pegs the NR and Empire only occupying a quarter of the galaxy, in contradiction of EVERYTHING ELSE. The author of that historical document clearly systematically underballs scale.

BTW, when was it stated the Empire had thousands of sectors, and not a thousand?

A Sector Group can be expected to contain at least 2,400 ships, 24 of which are Star Destroyers, and another 1,600 combat starships. Thousands of Sector Groups are at the Emperor’s command as he seeks to bring the galaxy firmly under his control.

Thank you.

Sectors are grouped together into larger territorial entities called regions. The Empire has countless regions, which can contain from as few as three to upwards of thousands of sectors.

Strictly speaking, there's no evidence against a fire-breathing, invisible, massless dragon in my garage. So it would not contradict anything for it to exist. Therefore it is not 'incorrect' for me to claim it does.

Look, jackass. All I am pointing out is (your backpeddling notwithstanding), there is no upper limit on Executors. You have clearly championed this idea despite now cowering behind unfalsifiability in another strawman.

It really smarts when I simply quote your words back at you to show the stupidity of them, don't it? With lack of evidence for more Executors, there is no reason to assume more. This is trivially simple logic.

Yea, I remembered that. Pity only eight or so got finished, according to the actual sources.

I don't debate for a second Executor-sized vessels existed, but the only reputable sources put it at 8 Executor-class. One WEG adventure journal.. The lowest source of the low.. Estimates sixteen, but no other source agrees with this. Certainly, we've only seen eight,

My point is the SW EU is so incomplete as a true background source that to say, yup, this many appeared, and I'd say that's all that existed is stupid. Like I said, do you champion that the number of Lancer-class's that exist are limited to exactly the number we've seen so far?

If there were statements that those were all they had? Yep, I would.

The only bit more comical is you actually had precisely NO EVIDENCE during all that babbling.

You're confusing our positions again, Primey. You're the one who thinks you can claim fleets of Executors without evidence.

And how many fire breathing dragons do you have?

Obviously I am not saying that the absence of evidence suggests that more must exist, I'm only saying that the scale of the Empire would make it likely that more could exist, and we obviously don't have the whole picture, so I'm not treating the number observed as an UPPER possible limit.

I do not dispute that they could manufacture thousands if they put their nose down to it. I simply point out that there's no indication they did that, and some indications otherwise. Re: the statement about 16 Conner found.

Like I said, are the only Lancer-class's built those we've seen?

Are there fifteen more Suncrusher's sitting around?

Indeed you do! You need 25,000 ISD's capable of performing Base Delta Zero's on aqueaous(sp) planets. Of course, throwing in the millions of Acclamators, Victories, TradeFed BB's, Invincibles, and other such capital ships into the mix just pushes the numbers higher, but if we assume the ISD was the premeire vessel of her day, with the exception of far less numerous craft(A dozen or two Executors, the tiny number of Torpedo Spheres), it covers it nicely.

No, Ender destroyed your bullshit ages ago, because you warped the quote. Dodonna did not compare "time-averaged reactor output" between the Starfleet and the Death Star. He compared FIREPOWER.

Who are you confusing me with? Besides, how is it not discussing firepower to talk about the figures a BDZ gives an ISD's entire weapon complement?

This was already explained to you at length.

Apparently you're confusing me with someone else, Primey.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Ahhh. *Shrugs* I overreacted, as I said to Conner. Oh well.

Yet you bitched at me AFTER THE FACT anyway. How sincere of you.

Could this be because politicians favor the Core worlds?

In order to have the vast majority of SDs be VSDs, they'd need to be a bit more uniformly distributed than almost always only the Rim.

And this is unrealistic why? I'm simply going with what evidence actually exists. That the fleets aren't filled out totally isn't at all unrealistic, given that the Empire was still militarizing steadily and on a heavy production footing.

In other words, your "the ISB is unfilled hypotheticals" is your conclusion, which you're using as evidence for why I should discount the ISB figures as definitive.

In other words, you made it up (you like this wishful thinking in the place of evidence thing, don't you?). Thanks for clarifying that, buddy.

Circular logic, anyone? Anyway, you're requiring the majority of the SGs to be curiously understrength, despite the fact the Empire can construct at a rate of hundreds of millions of ISDs per month. "They're still militarizing" isn't a good excuse with an entity that militarizes this quickly.

'Consistant fabrication'? Your paranoia is gripping you hard, Primey. I've not brought up the OOB in months, if ever, in this webboard.

You have consistently claimed the OoB is "hypotheticals." Since this is never found and is actually often counter-intuitive, you must have made it up. Or fabricated it, as in, its a fabrication. Don't get all twisted up over diction.

As for the WEG books saying it should be higher, are you using the OOB, the bit stated in the text to be goals, not yet attained?

Except it never says that.

You claimed the same thing here awhile back.

And there you did discuss the OoB.

...Once we totally discount the last sentence...

How? Does that change that at lowest, the 24 ISD figure is an AVERAGE? It would have to be much below 24 ISDs on average if there were only 25,000 ISDs in thousands of Sectors.

This is obvious.

It's certainly a possibility. Given we have a concrete statement from a reliable source on the number of ISD's, and a minimum number of ISD's to fill all sector fleets, and they don't match up, the obvious implication is that there's understrength sector groups.

But then the average across thousands could not be 24 per sector if there's only 25,000.

Your diatrabe is a long-winded way of saying, "The ISB is inaccurate and should be ignored."

I like how you and the writer of this paragraph(In universe, of course) grant Palpatine some magic ability to say 'The military will be mobilized' and the fleets will fill to the bursting point. The command to mobilize the war machine will of course include increasing production. If the production is not finished, no, these numbers will not be attained.

The Empire builds at the rate of hundreds of millions of ISDs. Why would this take decades or something?

But hey. I'm just doing the logical thing and including all availiable evidence. This is apparently taboo for you.

You're a bullshit artist. You're entire argument depends on tossing out the ISB, which you do by making it describe things which do not exist (see: "hypothetical") and ignoring the fact that the average (and bordering on minimum, which is even worse for you) sector in 1000s of sectors contains 24 ISDs. Therefore the 25,000 figure DOES NOT FIT with the ISB.

No, it's the logical outcome of looking at Pelleaon's statement and the ISB's requirements for far more ships than existed.

Again, treating the ISB as if it describing "hypothetical" warships, when in fact it was describing the average to minimum EXISTING SECTOR GROUPS as 24 ISDs.

In order for their to be only 25,000 ISDs across 1000s of Sectors, the average had to be below 24. So you're just using a long-winded way of throwing out YOUR unfavored source. Don't give me these pretentions of superiority. You're throwing out the ISB and being dishonest about it to boot.

I'm sorry, but simply saying "I do not accept the evidence" and "I don't think it is refering to real things" both reduce its evidential weight to zero. You're accomplishing the same goals with more pretention and by dressing it up in a clownsuit.

It really smarts when I simply quote your words back at you to show the stupidity of them, don't it?

Given how many times I've done it to you in this thread, I'll wave this off as projection.

With lack of evidence for more Executors, there is no reason to assume more. This is trivially simple logic.

I'm sure all those quotes I've given are articulating just that. Backpeddler.

If there were statements that those were all they had? Yep, I would.

Except they don't exist! Maybe the AJ does, but you've provided no evidence.

You're confusing our positions again, Primey. You're the one who thinks you can claim fleets of Executors without evidence.

Except I'm not. I'm reserving judgement on the number that could exist because no one's produced a quote saying "n were ever constructed." Y'know, quotes, since you consistently fuck up your memory unable to remember things and substituting your inventions in place of actual recalled facts where curiousity convienent.

I do not dispute that they could manufacture thousands if they put their nose down to it. I simply point out that there's no indication they did that, and some indications otherwise. Re: the statement about 16 Conner found.

Given the amount of hearsay bullshit that's flown around in this thread, I'm withholding til I see the quote.

Are there fifteen more Suncrusher's sitting around?

No, only one place could build them and Qwi Xux said there were none others. Like I said, I'm waiting on the source.

Who are you confusing me with? Besides, how is it not discussing firepower to talk about the figures a BDZ gives an ISD's entire weapon complement?

This'll be rich: Big Corellian Ships

Deal with the Dodonna calc, he informs me. Yet even a conservative SD count, with the ISB ratio, will yield a fleet of ten million ships, and an average firepower of E26W per vessel. Between big ships like the Executor, and the fact even an Acclamator or VSD can perform a Base Delta Zero operation, there is no pressing need from Dodonna's briefing to up the fleet counts.

Oh gee, look at that, the "No Math!" argument. By using this, you can downplay the massive difference and make yourself look more reasonable then the fool you are.

Hey numbnuts: Lets be extremely generous here, and say that every ship has a firepower of 1E30 watts.

At a bare minimum the Superlaser was 3.4E38 joules and fired for .21 seconds. Realistically, the energy should be far higher since it was thermal and that number is the resultant kinetic energy.

So converting joules to watts, that is 1.62E39 watts, and with the basic division, thats 1,620,000,000 ships. More realistically, with an average firepower of 1e25 (for every executor there are hundreds of gamma asssault shuttle Nitram) you are looking at 162,000,000,000,000

And you think that the destroyers, the "workhorses of the navy" make up 0.0015% - 0.0000000154% of it respectivly

And later...

The calculations to derive the time-averaged firepower of the DS1 and throw it up against a fleet of ten million capital ships are painfully easy.

Time-averaged firepower(From 1E38 shot and the presumed two-shots-per-day from Canon): ~1E33W

From here it's barely even being awake. 25,000 ISD's give an average of 4E28W, a little high. Ten million ships give 1E26W, and ten million is fairly consistant with ISB's '1,400 combat vessels per Star Destroyer'(Actually, 35 million is the result, but the math is trivially easy to do, and 35 million may be counting non-capital ships.).

Well see here's the thing Nitram; see, since unlike you I know what I am talking about (as was wonderfully demonstrated earlier in the thread where you tried to bluff your way about the navy, I notice you still lack the balls to concede that bit), I know what is said in the movie: He says FIREPOWER not Time averaged reactor power. The latter was used to derive exceptionally low end estimates and does nto reflect the movies.

In otherwords, I was right, and you don't know how to use a dictionary.

This was already explained to you at length.

Apparently you're confusing me with someone else, Primey.

You're right; I was confusing you with someone with enough brains to have a memory and to have enough sense to use that cute little SEARCH icon with the magnifying glass.

[SirNitram]

...Wow. Talk about beyond pathetic. You keep notes from threads over a year old just for these little vendettas?

And as much as you strawman, I'm not throwing out the ISB OOB. I'm simply stated that it didn't get filled. It was planned, it wasn't finished. That's my position. THat's not 'Throwing it out', it's 'looking at all the evidence'.

But I'm sure in 2005, November, you'll haul out selective quoting from your little notepad of greivances.

[Illuminatus Primus]

...Wow. Talk about beyond pathetic. You keep notes from threads over a year old just for these little vendettas?

No, not really. I just knew that this was a familiar argument, and I keep links to Ender's Dodonna calc because he only ever posted it twice (and its kind of an important figure), and I could never find the first time. If you can, by all means, help me out.

I'm still trying to find where he broke it down by ship type, too.

I'm sure you would've prefered me not to trot you out giving the EXACT same argument and having it knocked down for the same reason. Funny also I, despite my EVIL VENDETTA did not quote my arguments against you, like you might think - nope, because those are useless to the point.

Whatever, you fucked up.

And as much as you strawman, I'm not throwing out the ISB OOB. I'm simply stated that it didn't get filled. It was planned, it wasn't finished. That's my position. THat's not 'Throwing it out', it's 'looking at all the evidence'.

No it isn't, Nitram. You're reducing its evidential weight to zero by saying that it does not represent reality in the SWU (even though it explicitly claims to represent the average (and rapidly becoming minimum) outfitting of existing sectors, as much you try to bullshit.

Saying "I do not accept it" and "it describes stuff that doesn't exist despite the fact it claims to" are functionally identical. They both make the ISB have zero weight on the actual figures.

What you are doing is called "looking at the evidence, deciding a prefered conclusion, and determining an excuse to devalue the less prefered piece of evidence."

But I'm sure in 2005, November, you'll haul out selective quoting from your little notepad of greivances.

So sad, poor loser. I suppose in order for you to save face I was supposed to waste my time in a shouting match for two or three pages? How about no.

[Enforcer Talen]

http://www.daltonator.net/fanfics/essays/impfleet.txt this what your looking for?

[Connor MacLeod]

Hrm. Conceeded and withdrawn, until I find where I got such a precise figure. You'd think if my mind was playing tricks on me, it wouldn't give exacting numbers, wouldn't it?

Not always. My mind is pretty good at remembering tidbits like that most of the time, but I've had it happen to me too sometimes. Even though I have alot of my sources on hand most of the time and I generally remember most of it, memory isn't perfect

Naming them off, now that I stop and look around for the quote. So yea, it could be sixteen.

Or more. I believe we both can accept that its possible there are more Executors, even though its not really important or neccessary for them to actually have built thousands or even hundreds. All that's really important is to note that they probably have thousands of battleship/command ship types, right?

It does not, so I withdraw the statement they must be only eight. Sixteen isn't too much of a stretch either way, though if you have the exact quote, that'd be grand.

Not on hand. I was working of memory there too, but I can dig around some people I know and see if they can find it.

As I said, it's not a matter of ships this size being built. As the Trade Fed showed, it's apparently not much to deploy lots of hulls of a given size. Quality of hulls is quite a different story(Isn't there some indication the much smaller Acclamators were doing a number of TradeFed Battleships in the AOTC novel?).

The novel mentions a space battle going on but they don't specify which ships were involved. Given though that there wer eonl a dozen Acclamators at Geonosis (3 or more of which were at least on the ground deploying troops, if not more), and at LEAST sixty Trade Fed warships, it seems probable they had more naval assets present, especially since the Acclamators suck at space combat.

Personally, I do suspect that there were other warships present including the Acclamators. And i don't think the TF battleships are TOTALLY outclassed.. those guns are pretty large, which implies they probably have some pretty hefty punch (larger than the QTLs on an Acclamator I think), although I do agree they probably aren't equal to a dedicated "Imperial" battleship, or probably even a battlecruiser. Both because they serve dedicated ground assault and carrier functions and are converted merchant ships. On the other hand, the only given stats I've seen for Trade Fed ships are for the Droid control ship - a "battleship" might be something else (although still not the equal of a dedicated military warship, since it is still converted.) Its somewhat open to debate I imagine.

Definately; just take a look at images of Byss and you'll see a navy that absolutely outstrips every image from the movies or novels. This might, in part, explain why the Imperial economy could support producing millions of Imperators, thousands of Executors, and yet didn't.

Yep. Another thing to consider is the scope of conflict as we are witnissing it officially. Its virtually impossible for us to see the entirety of any given conflict in any given timeframe, be it canon or official. So invariably, there is tremendous wiggle room as to what "happened" to other vessels. Its a pretty fucking big galaxy, after all.

It might also be worth noting that the ongoing civil war could very well have disrupted warship construction, particualrily post Endor (when things were breakign down) on one or both sides.. so big warships, which take more time and resources to produce, could also become highly valuable to all sides and might be "conserved" - smaller ships (like ISDs and Mon Cal cruisers) coudl be built more rapidly and replaced more easily, and thus could be sacrificed more readily.

My logic in referring to the warlord era is primarily the amount of fuss the Executor's kicked up. But I do admit I was hasty in declaring that even sixteen would be overmuch.

Well, thats all that concerned me. As I said, I don't see the exact number of Executors being buitl as being all that important anyhow - the point I was trying to convey more was that its probable there are thousands of "battleship" or "Command ship" type vessels - be they Executors, Giel's ship, or a Clone-War era Mandator.

[Illuminatus Primus]

We're looking for a quote, if any exists, firmly establishing the number of Executors constructed by the Empire.

[SirNitram]

Hrm. Conceeded and withdrawn, until I find where I got such a precise figure. You'd think if my mind was playing tricks on me, it wouldn't give exacting numbers, wouldn't it?

Not always. My mind is pretty good at remembering tidbits like that most of the time, but I've had it happen to me too sometimes. Even though I have alot of my sources on hand most of the time and I generally remember most of it, memory isn't perfect

Better'n mine. Nothing like having the top layer of your Cortex fried off in infancy to destroy your ability to remember a quote.

Naming them off, now that I stop and look around for the quote. So yea, it could be sixteen.

Or more. I believe we both can accept that its possible there are more Executors, even though its not really important or neccessary for them to actually have built thousands or even hundreds. All that's really important is to note that they probably have thousands of battleship/command ship types, right?

Of course. Hell, I suspect if we assigned a mere hundred ships to every breed of 'Above ISD' wedge-shaped ship seen, we'd have thousands by the end. And a hundred-unit run isn't that much by any standard.

It does not, so I withdraw the statement they must be only eight. Sixteen isn't too much of a stretch either way, though if you have the exact quote, that'd be grand.

Not on hand. I was working of memory there too, but I can dig around some people I know and see if they can find it.

As I said, it's not a matter of ships this size being built. As the Trade Fed showed, it's apparently not much to deploy lots of hulls of a given size. Quality of hulls is quite a different story(Isn't there some indication the much smaller Acclamators were doing a number of TradeFed Battleships in the AOTC novel?).

The novel mentions a space battle going on but they don't specify which ships were involved. Given though that there wer eonl a dozen Acclamators at Geonosis (3 or more of which were at least on the ground deploying troops, if not more), and at LEAST sixty Trade Fed warships, it seems probable they had more naval assets present, especially since the Acclamators suck at space combat.

Alright, this is why I asked.

Personally, I do suspect that there were other warships present including the Acclamators. And i don't think the TF battleships are TOTALLY outclassed.. those guns are pretty large, which implies they probably have some pretty hefty punch (larger than the QTLs on an Acclamator I think), although I do agree they probably aren't equal to a dedicated "Imperial" battleship, or probably even a battlecruiser. Both because they serve dedicated ground assault and carrier functions and are converted merchant ships. On the other hand, the only given stats I've seen for Trade Fed ships are for the Droid control ship - a "battleship" might be something else (although still not the equal of a dedicated military warship, since it is still converted.) Its somewhat open to debate I imagine.

Quite. But it's still hard for me to imagine a TF-BB being much of a match for the Republic's ships pre-Army Buildup; remember the quotes from TPM regarding how they couldn't stick around if the blockade wasn't legal.

Definately; just take a look at images of Byss and you'll see a navy that absolutely outstrips every image from the movies or novels. This might, in part, explain why the Imperial economy could support producing millions of Imperators, thousands of Executors, and yet didn't.

Yep. Another thing to consider is the scope of conflict as we are witnissing it officially. Its virtually impossible for us to see the entirety of any given conflict in any given timeframe, be it canon or official. So invariably, there is tremendous wiggle room as to what "happened" to other vessels. Its a pretty fucking big galaxy, after all.

Definately. I was just referring to this class' unique tendency to draw masses of attention. It's like the writer's stick huge SHOOT ME signs on the Executors.

It might also be worth noting that the ongoing civil war could very well have disrupted warship construction, particualrily post Endor (when things were breakign down) on one or both sides.. so big warships, which take more time and resources to produce, could also become highly valuable to all sides and might be "conserved" - smaller ships (like ISDs and Mon Cal cruisers) coudl be built more rapidly and replaced more easily, and thus could be sacrificed more readily.

This is the primary thing behind my thoughts. All quotes indicate only a few ISD's churned out, but we have to remember it was a turmoiled time. Not to mention Palpy's vast number of 'Special Projects', which would have an effect on the Imperial Economy similar to that of a black hole.

My logic in referring to the warlord era is primarily the amount of fuss the Executor's kicked up. But I do admit I was hasty in declaring that even sixteen would be overmuch.

Well, thats all that concerned me. As I said, I don't see the exact number of Executors being buitl as being all that important anyhow - the point I was trying to convey more was that its probable there are thousands of "battleship" or "Command ship" type vessels - be they Executors, Giel's ship, or a Clone-War era Mandator.

Agreed on this, unconditionally. If there weren't thousands of Mandators and the like, I'd be quite dissapointed with KDY.

[SirNitram]

...Wow. Talk about beyond pathetic. You keep notes from threads over a year old just for these little vendettas?

No, not really. I just knew that this was a familiar argument, and I keep links to Ender's Dodonna calc because he only ever posted it twice (and its kind of an important figure), and I could never find the first time. If you can, by all means, help me out.

I'm still trying to find where he broke it down by ship type, too.

I'm sure you would've prefered me not to trot you out giving the EXACT same argument and having it knocked down for the same reason. Funny also I, despite my EVIL VENDETTA did not quote my arguments against you, like you might think - nope, because those are useless to the point.

Whatever, you fucked up.

Riiiiight. Because I dared to incorporate more than one peice of evidence at a time, because I actually pointed out that there's plenty of firepower to be accounted for outside ISD's(Your mind must have mentally skipped over references to SSD's and their similarly huge cousins, and the things like Torpedo Spheres.), I'm the one that fucked up. Suuuure, kiddo.

And as much as you strawman, I'm not throwing out the ISB OOB. I'm simply stated that it didn't get filled. It was planned, it wasn't finished. That's my position. THat's not 'Throwing it out', it's 'looking at all the evidence'.

No it isn't, Nitram. You're reducing its evidential weight to zero by saying that it does not represent reality in the SWU (even though it explicitly claims to represent the average (and rapidly becoming minimum) outfitting of existing sectors, as much you try to bullshit.

So your answer is to completely disregard all other evidence? We have Pelleaon's quote, and, of course, the SW Encyclopedia doesn't think the ISD was evenly distributed amongst the sectors..

"All told, the empire built more than 25,000 Star Destroyers, holding half of them on reserve in the Galactic Core to protect key military, industrial, and politicla systems."

Could this link to what I alluded to early about political influence swaying where SD's were going? Could be. But you skipped over it in your desperate need to quote old threads.

Pointe blank: More sources claim ~25,000 ISD's than claim enough to fill the OOB. The logical result is to conclude 'This is what was laid down and said must be filled. But there is a difference between 'We must have this' and 'We have this'.' That you strawman this into 'Ignore the ISB OOB' is not my fault nor my problem. Just you flailing away.

BTW, how many Torpedo Spheres does the OOB claim, again?

There are only six Torpedo Spheres currently in service. They perform only one function, but it is an important one in these times of open rebellion.

Saying "I do not accept it" and "it describes stuff that doesn't exist despite the fact it claims to" are functionally identical. They both make the ISB have zero weight on the actual figures.

And if the evidence indicates it doesn't describe things as they stand? I'm not going to take your route, which is 'Toss out all evidence except this one peice, which I've deified'.

But I'm sure in 2005, November, you'll haul out selective quoting from your little notepad of greivances.

So sad, poor loser. I suppose in order for you to save face I was supposed to waste my time in a shouting match for two or three pages? How about no.

You'll be back. Your obsession with me has continued since your little clubhouse days when I declined invitation. I'm sure you'll continue to strawman, exclude evidence you don't like, and skirt the edge of the vendetta rules. I really don't care. My debate has been with Conner over whether Executors are numerous or not, or whether most command ships would be the more prolific 'Battleships', like the Five Mile SD.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Riiiiight. Because I dared to incorporate more than one peice of evidence at a time, because I actually pointed out that there's plenty of firepower to be accounted for outside ISD's(Your mind must have mentally skipped over references to SSD's and their similarly huge cousins, and the things like Torpedo Spheres.), I'm the one that fucked up. Suuuure, kiddo.

Except those do not work, as shown above. You need a rather enormous number of large ships to average out with a comparatively paltry number of mid-range and small vessels like 25,000 ISDs in order to satisfy the calc. Let me know when you do the math.

And Torpedo Spheres do not have much absolute firepower - they are highly specialized toward affecting shields, and then only in areas of fluctuation.

So your answer is to completely disregard all other evidence? We have Pelleaon's quote, and, of course, the SW Encyclopedia doesn't think the ISD was evenly distributed amongst the sectors.

How will this satisfy an avg. of 24 ISDs per sector, again?

"All told, the empire built more than 25,000 Star Destroyers, holding half of them on reserve in the Galactic Core to protect key military, industrial, and politicla systems."

Could this link to what I alluded to early about political influence swaying where SD's were going? Could be. But you skipped over it in your desperate need to quote old threads.

How will this satisfy an avg. of 24 ISDs per sector, again? If you aim to just disregard that, fine.

Pointe blank: More sources claim ~25,000 ISD's than claim enough to fill the OOB. The logical result is to conclude 'This is what was laid down and said must be filled. But there is a difference between 'We must have this' and 'We have this'.' That you strawman this into 'Ignore the ISB OOB' is not my fault nor my problem. Just you flailing away.

That's the problem; the OOB says "this much exists" and Pelleaon says "this much exists." Just ADMIT YOU'RE DISCARDING THE ISB OOB. Because now you're arguing to do it based on volume of sources supporting the 25k claim. That's fine. But at least admit it instead of resorting to this sea of sophistry.

BTW, how many Torpedo Spheres does the OOB claim, again?

There are only six Torpedo Spheres currently in service. They perform only one function, but it is an important one in these times of open rebellion.

What does this have to do with anything?

And if the evidence indicates it doesn't describe things as they stand? I'm not going to take your route, which is 'Toss out all evidence except this one peice, which I've deified'.

Look, you only had one piece of evidence from a source which systematically underestimates everything. I'm willing to reconsider since you have corroboration. But this absurd dressing up of overriding the ISB is pathetic. I was willing a page ago to suggest there may have been other classes of Star Destroyer comparable to the ISD which filled the discrepency, but you simply ignored that bit.

You'll be back. Your obsession with me has continued since your little clubhouse days when I declined invitation.

I tried to mend any harsh feelings. You declined on the grounds you don't like me. My vendetta indeed.

I'm sure you'll continue to strawman, exclude evidence you don't like, and skirt the edge of the vendetta rules. I really don't care. My debate has been with Conner over whether Executors are numerous or not, or whether most command ships would be the more prolific 'Battleships', like the Five Mile SD.

Whatever, Nitram. Your narcissism is quite honestly pathetic.

And you'll need those big ships if you only 25,000 ISDs and the Dodonna calcs needs millions of ships with ISD firepower in order to be met.

[SirNitram]

So your answer is to completely disregard all other evidence? We have Pelleaon's quote, and, of course, the SW Encyclopedia doesn't think the ISD was evenly distributed amongst the sectors.

How will this satisfy an avg. of 24 ISDs per sector, again?

It. Does. Not. The OOB is not yet filled. That has been my point for some time now. It is a goal, not yet reached.

If you actually debated instead of this stupid 'I'll repeat my question over and over and act like a fucking retard', you'd know I very simply showed that 'The Emperor commanding the military to mobilize' and 'The fleet rosters filling up' do not just happen.

Pointe blank: More sources claim ~25,000 ISD's than claim enough to fill the OOB. The logical result is to conclude 'This is what was laid down and said must be filled. But there is a difference between 'We must have this' and 'We have this'.' That you strawman this into 'Ignore the ISB OOB' is not my fault nor my problem. Just you flailing away.

That's the problem; the OOB says "this much exists" and Pelleaon says "this much exists." Just ADMIT YOU'RE DISCARDING THE ISB OOB. Because now you're arguing to do it based on volume of sources supporting the 25k claim. That's fine. But at least admit it instead of resorting to this sea of sophistry.

Do you actually know what Sophistry is, you ingrate? Sophistry would be saying 'They're all right' and 'I'm right and you're right and that's fine.'. This is actually looking at the evidence in context. YOU invented the strawman that saying the OOB isn't filled yet is discarding it. And for what? So you can dredge up your vendetta from a year ago? Seriously, do you just sit around in this forum, sitting in your own feces, waiting for me to post so you can cackle and jump around in glee?

In case your wondering what emotion to read into that paragraph, it's contempt. If this is in any way like how you behave in the real world, get used to it. You'll feel it your whole life.

BTW, how many Torpedo Spheres does the OOB claim, again?

There are only six Torpedo Spheres currently in service. They perform only one function, but it is an important one in these times of open rebellion.

What does this have to do with anything?

If there is a difference between the ISB statement of how many TS's exist, and the OOB's statement of how many TS's exist, my theory that the OOB is not yet filled is supported, by the source of the OOB itself. So. Please. Answer the question and let me know if I'm correct in my remembering of how many TS's are in the OOB.

And if the evidence indicates it doesn't describe things as they stand? I'm not going to take your route, which is 'Toss out all evidence except this one peice, which I've deified'.

Look, you only had one piece of evidence from a source which systematically underestimates everything. I'm willing to reconsider since you have corroboration. But this absurd dressing up of overriding the ISB is pathetic. I was willing a page ago to suggest there may have been other classes of Star Destroyer comparable to the ISD which filled the discrepency, but you simply ignored that bit.

You're bloody obsessed. You're a bloody zealot. You can't fathom that, in context, the OOB is not necessarily iron-clad truth, but a goal. Stop strawmanning my statement from 'The OOB is a goal being worked towards during the Rebellion era' into 'The OOB is worthless'. Because at no point am I saying this. You can yell and stamp your feet, but I'm not saying that. The closest you can get to that is saying 'The OOB is worthless for stating the exact number of ships present now.' The OOB still holds use, however, especially for anyone wanting to think about what the Empire could have done if it beat the Rebellion.

You'll be back. Your obsession with me has continued since your little clubhouse days when I declined invitation.

I tried to mend any harsh feelings. You declined on the grounds you don't like me. My vendetta indeed.

Wow, we don't get along. Jesus Christ, there's a news flash. You only leapt into a conversasion I had with Conner and started dredging up year-old threads at the first opportunity. At least I ignore you most of the time. Yes, your vendetta. Dragging up past threads fits the definition well. I'm not the one desperately trying to assail the other with strawmen and past greivances, or leaping into the first thread in my domain with a certain name in it.

I'm sure you'll continue to strawman, exclude evidence you don't like, and skirt the edge of the vendetta rules. I really don't care. My debate has been with Conner over whether Executors are numerous or not, or whether most command ships would be the more prolific 'Battleships', like the Five Mile SD.

Whatever, Nitram. Your narcissism is quite honestly pathetic.

As predictable as Newtonian physics.

And you'll need those big ships if you only 25,000 ISDs and the Dodonna calcs needs millions of ships with ISD firepower in order to be met.

Yep. Now what would really help the figures is if I could find any evidence my half-remembered thoughts of an ISD 'test bed' for a ship-mounted superlaser was Official and not fan-made. If there is evidence the Empire constructed a mini-SL in such a way, it would massively ramp up things. Much like the quake device(Can't recall the name for it) SSD's and the like could equip. Couldn't they shake apart small moons or something? Gods, now I have to find HDS' notes, he pointed them out...

[Executor]

Can someone please tell me where it states that the Naval OoB in the ISB is what they want to have? I've had the ISB for 12 years and have yet to see where this is stated. They only point that mentions forces below the OoB is under they Army where it states 8% or below but 15% are above