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MKSheppard
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Post by MKSheppard »

RedImperator wrote:It does nothing of the sort. I'm not talking about encouraging rural dwellers to come to the city, I'm talking about cutting back sprawl among existing urban dwellers.
And by this, you doom America to losing the rebuilding race after a atomic
war. It's funny, the Republicans were opposed to large scale national
redistribution in the 1950s, because that would mean the government
would control and plan a large part of the economy.

The Interstate highways allowed private industry and market forces
to decentralize and redistribute property and factories away from a few
highly centralized primary targets.
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Post by Ma Deuce »

Patrick Degan wrote:
Jason L. Miles wrote: Isn't one of those named for him?

Checking FAS.org, yep. LHD-8, costing 1.5 billion dollars.

Here's the link. Its in the middle of the page.
Good ol' Trent Loot...

Though as an aside, these ships make far more sense than another nuclear supercarrier.
That information is out of date (not surprising for FAS, who havn't updated their military pages since 2001 when they stole them from globalsecurity.org): LHD-8 will be named USS Makin Island.
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Post by LordShaithis »

I just want McCain's effort to create a national boxing commission to pass. It's been badly needed for a long time.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

MKSheppard wrote:And by this, you doom America to losing the rebuilding race after a atomic
war. It's funny, the Republicans were opposed to large scale national
redistribution in the 1950s, because that would mean the government
would control and plan a large part of the economy.

The Interstate highways allowed private industry and market forces
to decentralize and redistribute property and factories away from a few
highly centralized primary targets.
I know you are pretty nuke-centric, but why would we design our infrastructure on the vastly unlikely event of a nuclear war? Some amount of centralization is not only necessary, but a good idea.
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Post by Beowulf »

Ma Deuce wrote:That information is out of date (not surprising for FAS, who havn't updated their military pages since 2001 when they stole them from globalsecurity.org): LHD-8 will be named USS Makin Island.
OT: FAS didn't steal them, the guy who runs globalsecurity used to work for FAS. It's just the FAS doesn't care enough to hire someone to update them.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

MKSheppard wrote:
RedImperator wrote:It does nothing of the sort. I'm not talking about encouraging rural dwellers to come to the city, I'm talking about cutting back sprawl among existing urban dwellers.
And by this, you doom America to losing the rebuilding race after a atomic
war. It's funny, the Republicans were opposed to large scale national
redistribution in the 1950s, because that would mean the government
would control and plan a large part of the economy.

The Interstate highways allowed private industry and market forces
to decentralize and redistribute property and factories away from a few
highly centralized primary targets.
The United States of America as we know it, our way of life, all these things, will no longer be in a all-out nuclear war.

What emerges out of this land will not be any more recognizable to me than anything rising out of any other land, and almost certainly everyone I know would die.

So excuse me for frankly not giving a shit. Our imperatives should center around avoiding nuclear war at all costs. Fuck preparing for the aftermath; that won't be America anymore anyway. So allow me to concentrate on more pressing and realistic concerns.
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Post by RedImperator »

MKSheppard wrote:
RedImperator wrote:It does nothing of the sort. I'm not talking about encouraging rural dwellers to come to the city, I'm talking about cutting back sprawl among existing urban dwellers.
And by this, you doom America to losing the rebuilding race after a atomic
war. It's funny, the Republicans were opposed to large scale national
redistribution in the 1950s, because that would mean the government
would control and plan a large part of the economy.

The Interstate highways allowed private industry and market forces
to decentralize and redistribute property and factories away from a few
highly centralized primary targets.
I presume you know how to read a map. Suburbanization doesn't come close to distributing assets far enough for them to survive.

And while we're on the subject, market forces my ass. The Interstate highways forced the railroads and public transit to compete directly with the Federal government and companies with lower overhead costs because they didn't have to pay for their own infrastructure. And suburban development has been directly subsidised through home mortgage tax writeoffs, as well as state and municipal governments paying for the inefficient spiderwebs of infrastructure necessary for subdivisions to survive.

EDIT: And let's not forget the crippling restrictions on the railroads leftover from the robber baron days. Every railroad in the Northeast went bankrupt in large part because they legally couldn't lower their rates to compete with trucks.
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Post by Darth Wong »

:wtf: Shep belongs to the long-discredited 1950s school of thought that maintained a nuclear war's consequences could be mitigated through social planning?
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Darth Wong wrote::wtf: Shep belongs to the long-discredited 1950s school of thought that maintained a nuclear war's consequences could be mitigated through social planning?
It's true, though, from a strictly targeting point of view. If you spread a city out over a large area, it requires more nuclear devices to flatten it, considering the destructive effect decreases rapidly with distance. Naturally this means nothing about how those people are going to survive after the attack, but it will either keep them alive, or force the enemy to use more weapons (and thereby incur more expense in their nuclear programmes).
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Post by MKSheppard »

Darth Wong wrote::wtf: Shep belongs to the long-discredited 1950s school of thought that maintained a nuclear war's consequences could be mitigated through social planning?
Now now, surely you can see the advantages of suburbia; in moving
industries and population away from the easily targeted and killed
Country A to country B, which can rebuild Country A after the war.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Oh yes, and don't forget to keep your yard nice and clean, and maintain
a bucket of high gloss white paint by your windows at all time.
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Post by Symmetry »

Joe wrote:
Gil Hamilton wrote:As much as I like the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, I don't see why they should be getting $350k from the government. Congratulations, people who voted Bush because they thought he was fiscally conservative! You got what you wanted.
What, would pork barrel spending have grinded to a sudden halt if only Kerry had been elected President? :roll:
At least there's the chance that he'd actually veto a spending bill once in a while. Its the whole "divided government" thing.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Look on the bright side; it'll be hard as hell for the Republicans to blame the Democrats for whatever happens in the next 4 years. Not that Sean Hannity won't do it of course, but one has to hope that there's a limit to what even Joe Six-Pack will accept.
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Post by RedImperator »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Darth Wong wrote::wtf: Shep belongs to the long-discredited 1950s school of thought that maintained a nuclear war's consequences could be mitigated through social planning?
It's true, though, from a strictly targeting point of view. If you spread a city out over a large area, it requires more nuclear devices to flatten it, considering the destructive effect decreases rapidly with distance. Naturally this means nothing about how those people are going to survive after the attack, but it will either keep them alive, or force the enemy to use more weapons (and thereby incur more expense in their nuclear programmes).
Of course, since most suburban construction is cheap and flimsy, any weapons used over the suburbs will be more effective than those detonated over the cities. And as you said, even if those people aren't killed outright, they're not exactly going to be growing enough food to survive on their front yards. Calling the suburbs the B country is flatly laughable; one of the characteristics of the B country is that the B country can sustain its own population.
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Post by The Dark »

RedImperator wrote:EDIT: And let's not forget the crippling restrictions on the railroads leftover from the robber baron days. Every railroad in the Northeast went bankrupt in large part because they legally couldn't lower their rates to compete with trucks.
Holy fuck. I thought I was the only one on this board that knew/cared about that.

According to the CAGW (Citizens Against Government Waste), there was another great provision in the budget...a line giving the chairman of the Appropriations Committee full access to any citizen's tax returns. The estimated pork this year is $22.9 billion, including such things as recreation improvements at North Pole, Alaska and renovating a Coca-Cola building in Macon, Georgia. Alaska, Hawaii, and DC have the highest per-capita pork. Alaska is $808 per person, Hawaii $393, and DC $321. The lowest is New Jersey, at only $12 per person. The nationwide pork level is $31 per person.
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Post by Joe »

I heard about the tax return provision - there is no justification for any politician, Republican or Democrat, to not be absolutely furious about it.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Joe wrote:I heard about the tax return provision - there is no justification for any politician, Republican or Democrat, to not be absolutely furious about it.
It was removed, thankfully, though god knows what else is in there.

Literally, most of the representatives do not even read the entire bills.

It's clear that the only way the situation could be fixed is if bills are written up by a different entity who's job is to write out clear, concise measures. These could then be submitted to congress and their job would be to read them and then either pass them on to the President or veto them. But it would require a constitutional amendment, so it will never happen. "I want pork!" and all that.
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Post by The Dark »

Well, of course not. Those bills are proposed with last-minute amendments added and without adequate time for anyone to read through it for revisions.

While it would not be as effective as what Marina proposed, another idea would be to require a delay between the proposal of a budget and actually voting on the budget. Add an item, reset the time needed before the vote. It would take some working on to prevent a "filibuster through alteration" on the budget, but it is a method that could possibly pass muster (though not likely...congressmen depend on pork barrel for re-election).
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Post by Durandal »

Since no one else has jumped on it ...
For instance, there was $50,000 to control Missouri's wild-hog problem, $1 million for the Norwegian American Foundation in Seattle, $335,000 to protect North Dakota's sunflowers from blackbirds, $4 million for the International Fertilizer Development Center in Alabama.
Of course a pork budget is going to include wild hogs!

Wakka wakka wakka!

*Dodges tomatoes*
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Post by HemlockGrey »

And let's not forget the crippling restrictions on the railroads leftover from the robber baron days. Every railroad in the Northeast went bankrupt in large part because they legally couldn't lower their rates to compete with trucks.
If that were lifted, would there be any hope of a revived railroad industry without government subsidies to get it started?
I heard about the tax return provision - there is no justification for any politician, Republican or Democrat, to not be absolutely furious about it.
What, uh, exactly does it mean?
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Post by Vympel »

Durandal wrote:Wakka wakka wakka!
Wakka wakka wakka? I would've thought the ba-doom-boom-*tsing* drum backup of crappy comics eveywhere would've been better :)

What's a waaka waaka waaka?
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Post by RedImperator »

HemlockGrey wrote:
And let's not forget the crippling restrictions on the railroads leftover from the robber baron days. Every railroad in the Northeast went bankrupt in large part because they legally couldn't lower their rates to compete with trucks.
If that were lifted, would there be any hope of a revived railroad industry without government subsidies to get it started?
Unknown. By the time it was lifted, those railroads had already been reoganized into Conrail, which needed heaps and piles of Federal money in the early years to restore the infrastructure and rolling stock it had inherited from its predacessors (which had been allowed to go to shit because those railroads couldn't afford to operate, let alone conduct maintenence). Though it's interesting to note, as soon as the feds finally lifted those restrictions, Conrail went into the black and stayed there for about 20 years, until CSX and Norfolk Southern bought it out and split its assets.
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Post by Mayabird »

Vympel wrote:
Durandal wrote:Wakka wakka wakka!
Wakka wakka wakka? I would've thought the ba-doom-boom-*tsing* drum backup of crappy comics eveywhere would've been better :)

What's a waaka waaka waaka?
Someone didn't watch the Muppet Show as a kid. :wink:

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Vympel wrote:
Durandal wrote:Wakka wakka wakka!
Wakka wakka wakka? I would've thought the ba-doom-boom-*tsing* drum backup of crappy comics eveywhere would've been better :)

What's a waaka waaka waaka?
In the TV show "Muppet Babies," the character Fozzie would always make horribly bad jokes and follow them up with "Wakka wakka wakka!" At that point, tomatoes would be hurled out of nowhere and he'd have to dodge them.
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Post by RedImperator »

RedImperator wrote:
HemlockGrey wrote:
And let's not forget the crippling restrictions on the railroads leftover from the robber baron days. Every railroad in the Northeast went bankrupt in large part because they legally couldn't lower their rates to compete with trucks.
If that were lifted, would there be any hope of a revived railroad industry without government subsidies to get it started?
Unknown. By the time it was lifted, those railroads had already been reoganized into Conrail, which needed heaps and piles of Federal money in the early years to restore the infrastructure and rolling stock it had inherited from its predacessors (which had been allowed to go to shit because those railroads couldn't afford to operate, let alone conduct maintenence). Though it's interesting to note, as soon as the feds finally lifted those restrictions, Conrail went into the black and stayed there for about 20 years, until CSX and Norfolk Southern bought it out and split its assets.
To clarify, since it's obvious I shouldn't be posting at 7:30 AM:

Conrail was formed out of virtually every railroad in the Northeast, including the Reading, the Jersey Central, and PennCentral (itself formed out of the Pennsylvania Railroad, the New York Central, and the New Haven Railroad). It consolidated all those separate management structures into one corporation, shed dozens of unprofitable subsidiaries like hotels and insurance companies, and was allowed to dump off all those roads' intracity passenger operations (which were bleeding money) onto Amtrak. Later it was allowed to sell its commuter rail operations, also losing money, to state and municipal agencies. Conrail had virtually no competition in its home territory, the Northeast, and was a major player in the upper midwest. Despite all of this, and despite the fact that the money to rebuild its rolling stock and infrastructure came directly from the United States treasury, didn't make a dime in profit off operations from 1976 to 1980, the years it was operating under Federal price controls.

In 1980, those controls were lifted. By June of 81, Congress stopped Federal funding of the railroad. By the end of FY 1981, it had turned its first profit, and turned a profit every year until it was dissolved by CSX and Norfolk Southern in 1999.

So, yeah, the Feds did a real swell job screwing the railroads into the ground, as evidenced by how they performed once price controls were lifted. At the same time all that was going on, trucking companies were enjoying taxpayer funded infrastructure and Federal policy that ensured steady access to cheap fuel (which benefitted trucks more than trains because trucks are far less efficient per unit of cargo per mile). The railroads were also hobbled by much stricter labor rules (when the Southern Railroad dieselized in the 1950s, the union successfully fought to preserve the fireman's position on every locomotive, despite the fact that a fireman's job is to shovel coal into the boiler). These rules, too, were loosened, and railroads became more competitive because of them.

Of course, it's largely too late to restore the railroads to their former glory, and to a certain extent that would be impossible no matter what the government did unless it chose to artificially hobble trucks as it once did trains. American society is organized around interstate trucking carrying a large percentage of the cargo from distribution point to manufacturing and retail locations. The only outfits that recieve raw materials directly by rail anymore that I can think of off the top of my head are chemical plants, oil refineries, and coal fired power plants. What railroads do now is haul cargo to distribution centers. When I was in Wyoming, several times a day I would see mile-long Union Pacific autocarrier trains, hauling brand new cars from West Coast ports to points east, where they'd be unloaded at distribution lots and reloaded onto trucks to be hauled to dealerships.
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