Meta-Stable Metallic Hydrogen

[thelenocist]

So you're building entire moons out of metal. Load-bearing legs of AT-AT walkers out of metal. Fleets of enormous, mile-long starships out of metal. That's a lot of metal. So rather than using Unobtainium, why not build it out of a real theoretical material: Metastable Metallic Hydrogen,

Hydrogen's a metal, but it requires tremendous pressure to reach that state. MSMH is metallic hydrogen (Like that found in Jupiter and the cause of Jupiter's massive magnetic field) that remains metallic once entering that state, in the way that carbon remains stable as a diamond. Being the most abundant element in the galaxy, it would resolve any supply problems, but it would also explain some other Star Wars effects:

-The energy dissipation in ESB when the AT-AT's leg is hit by the rebel cannon. MSMH has been predicted to be a room temperature superconductor.

-The location of the Death Star construction in ROTJ around a gas giant. You'd still need to ship in massive quantities of supplies and equipment for something as large as the Death Star, but you just use the gas giant itself to provide you with basic structural material. Though Yavin was a command base, this would also make sense if they were to manufacture fighters or ships there.

Not knowing anything concrete about the functional usage MSMH, it would likely be alloyed for certain engineering tasks and used in pure form for others (Like most metals). But, given the sheer amount of metal used throughout Star Wars as well as some of the effects seen with energy dissipation, it would stand to reason that a superconducting metal made from the most prevalent material in the universe would be used extensively, and with more ease than anything made in molecular furnaces.

And yes, I did say "real theoretical" without spontaneously combusting.

[The Silence and I]

That's a neat idea; without knowing the mechanical properties of this form of hydrogen I cannot say if it is a good idea or not, but it is neat.

[thelenocist]

Yeah, that's what I thought, too. I only know about MSMH from Wikipedia and various other low-level scientific sources, but it sounds right. When I found out some guys thought it might be a room temp superconductor, that's when I figured it was just too perfect a fit. Another thing to think about is the combustability of vessels made out of pure hydrogen, or even light alloys. Maybe that's why those ships explode (And the occasional downed AT-AT--Heck, maybe that's why that TIE was on fire in ROTJ). You'd expect a 25,000-year old culture to have figured out a way to make MSMH pretty damned stable, but the occasional explosive failure's bound to happen, and it's a small price to pay, really, if it means you have an almost limitless supply of building material.

I'd love to hear some kind of expert metallurgical analysis of MSMH, like what kind of alloys you could make, how strong it'd be (Wikipedia states that it would have "the tensile strength of aluminum and a third its weight.") and whether it would be feasible to build a moon-sized, planet-destroying space station out of it.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The strength and various properties are FAR too low.

[thelenocist]

Too low for what? What various properties? Could you be more specific?

Edited to add that aluminum has a higher yield strength and ultimate strength than structural steel and that the significantly reduced weight as well as the truly enormous quantities of MSMH (Assuming an ability to produce it by mining gas giants or even stars) would allow for extravagant architectural solutions for load-bearing structures. Heck, it makes Rearden Metal look like cast iron. And that's without alloying.

[Sarevok]

Well Star Wars hulls can take direct hit from gigaton level weaponry and survive. I dont think meta stable metallic hydrogen has the structural strength to do that. As soon as it is heated to a few hundred degrees above abosulute zero it will be vaporized, nevermind the incredible temperatures a heavy turbolaser blast will generate.

[thelenocist]

Well Star Wars hulls can take direct hit from gigaton level weaponry and survive. I dont think meta stable metallic hydrogen has the structural strength to do that. As soon as it is heated to a few hundred degrees above abosulute zero it will be vaporized, nevermind the incredible temperatures a heavy turbolaser blast will generate.

Then it wouldn't be metastable if its evaporating at that temperature. The assumption for MSMH is that its stable (Though, presumably with good force-field technology you could also apply enough pressure to create regular ol' metallic hydrogen) However, if it was a superconductor, wouldn't that change the manner in which damage from energy weapons is calculated? If the entire hull of a Star Destroyer is superconducting, what effect would that have? Also, are the direct hits from heavy turbolasers against shielded or unshielded hulls?

[The Silence and I]

On the structural strength issue, I am not certain this is an issue. The strength of aluminum is more than enough for the majority of low load bearing structures in the galaxy, and for starships, well, I am beginning to think Star Wars uses SIFs just like Startrek.

My reasoning? A) The material strengths required are so high it may as well be magic, no chemical bond is strong enough to hold the bigger ships together. B) In AOTC the Senator's shiny new ship is blown apart on the landing pad, but when the landing gear break and the ship crashes a meter or two to the surface, the "wings" fail utterly upon impact with the edge of the pad. Unobtainium would have survived without a dent, but this acted more like modern materials. This vessel must have high accelerations like other SW vessels, and it is supposedly more combat survivable than the former royal ship, so it's materials should not be many, many orders of magnitude below that of combat vessels. Hence SIF. So far I am liking the idea.

[Winston Blake]

The energy dissipation in ESB when the AT-AT's leg is hit by the rebel cannon. MSMH has been predicted to be a room temperature superconductor.

Doesn't the whole superconductivity thing for AT-ATs and BSG armor refer to some kind of thermal superconductivity rather than this stuff's room-temp electrical superconductivity?

But, given the sheer amount of metal used throughout Star Wars as well as some of the effects seen with energy dissipation, it would stand to reason that a superconducting metal made from the most prevalent material in the universe would be used extensively, and with more ease than anything made in molecular furnaces.

What on earth's a molecular furnace?

Maybe that's why those ships explode (And the occasional downed AT-AT--Heck, maybe that's why that TIE was on fire in ROTJ).

Except theres no oxygen available in space for it to burn in, and the flames couldn't exist like that in space either.


Also, metastable =/ stable. Ever dropped a seed crystal into a supersaturated solution? I have a feeling if you hit this stuff too hard, it'll spontaneously disintegrate or something.

met·a·sta·ble ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mt-stbl)
adj.
Of, relating to, or being an unstable and transient but relatively long-lived state of a chemical or physical system, as of a supersaturated solution or an excited atom.

[Pcm979]

It also could be that the Nabooians (What are they called, anyway?) make crap style-over-substance spaceships, and it being "significantly more combat capable than the previous one" is like saying that a guy with a baseball bat is more combat-capable than a small orange.

[Winston Blake]

I think they're called "The Naboo". Yes, I know it sounds stupid.

[Pcm979]

Kinda like Sheep? Hrm. I think you're right. "The Councillor for Naboo" etc.

[thelenocist]

First off, I will never mention that flaming TIE Fighter again. Ever. It's a silly, silly thing and I cannot even begin to conceive of a legitimate reason for it, except that maybe it was flying through the atmospheric remnants of a cracked capital ship while the pilot was smoking... And the MSMH hull...

Doesn't the whole superconductivity thing for AT-ATs and BSG armor refer to some kind of thermal superconductivity rather than this stuff's room-temp electrical superconductivity?

I'm sorry, what are these two forms of superconductivity that you're differentiating? I was only aware of one.

Edited to add that I think you're talking about heat conductivity, which real superconductors are pretty bad at (And likely, MSMH would suffer from the same failing).

What on earth's a molecular furnace?

A sci-fi whatzit that allows you to break down atoms and build new ones according to recipe.

Also, metastable =/ stable. Ever dropped a seed crystal into a supersaturated solution? I have a feeling if you hit this stuff too hard, it'll spontaneously disintegrate or something.

Not quite the same thing. Ever drop an ice cube in a cup of molten magma? Diamond is a metastable material, and it's pretty darned tough. You can still cook it, of course, but you can cook anything given the right temp. I have a feeling this will be Galactic Iron.

met·a·sta·ble ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mt-stbl)
adj.
Of, relating to, or being an unstable and transient but relatively long-lived state of a chemical or physical system, as of a supersaturated solution or an excited atom.

Metastability is the ability of a non-equilibrium state to persist for a long period of time. Usually metastability is due to a relatively slow phase transformation. For example at room temperature diamonds are metastable because the phase transformation to the stable graphite form is extremely slow. At higher temperatures the rate of phase transformation is increased and the diamond will transform to graphite. The bonds between the building blocks of polymers such as DNA, RNA and proteins are also metastable.

Assumably, at least to me, Imperial Metastable Metallic Hydrogen would have a higher temp before it broke down (Particularly if alloyed, in which case it could be a very high temp). It's really just a somewhat scientific Unobtainium at that point, since we only theoretically know how MSMH would work (Especially its possibility/plausibility) much less whether you could alloy it or otherwise tweak it to create a more capable material. But I think it's got potential.

[Illuminatus Primus]

If its tensile strength is only that of aluminum - that alone damns it and sinks it. It doesn't work.

[Winston Blake]

Also, metastable =/ stable. Ever dropped a seed crystal into a supersaturated solution? I have a feeling if you hit this stuff too hard, it'll spontaneously disintegrate or something.

Not quite the same thing. Ever drop an ice cube in a cup of molten magma? Diamond is a metastable material, and it's pretty darned tough. You can still cook it, of course, but you can cook anything given the right temp. I have a feeling this will be Galactic Iron.

Ok, it could have a helluva long lifetime and resistance to perturbation.

What's with the magma? Why is magma metastable?

met·a·sta·ble ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mt-stbl)
adj.
Of, relating to, or being an unstable and transient but relatively long-lived state of a chemical or physical system, as of a supersaturated solution or an excited atom.

Metastability is the ability of a non-equilibrium state to persist for a long period of time. Usually metastability is due to a relatively slow phase transformation. For example at room temperature diamonds are metastable because the phase transformation to the stable graphite form is extremely slow. At higher temperatures the rate of phase transformation is increased and the diamond will transform to graphite. The bonds between the building blocks of polymers such as DNA, RNA and proteins are also metastable.

Ok, it's transformation time could be very long, to the point of practical stability. It's just when i think 'metastable', i immediately think short, precarious transitions, this super long diamond thing is new to me.

Assumably, at least to me, Imperial Metastable Metallic Hydrogen would have a higher temp before it broke down (Particularly if alloyed, in which case it could be a very high temp). It's really just a somewhat scientific Unobtainium at that point, since we only theoretically know how MSMH would work (Especially its possibility/plausibility) much less whether you could alloy it or otherwise tweak it to create a more capable material. But I think it's got potential.

Sure, i agree it's got potential as a scifi material.

Nitpick: alloying doesn't improve thermal properties.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Nitpick: The DSII wasn't built around a gas giant, but around a moon. According to Lucas in the books, for some reason Endor had disappeared or evaporated, leaving only the moons.

At least, that's what I remember. Its been a long time.

[Ghost Rider]

Nitpick: The DSII wasn't built around a gas giant, but around a moon. According to Lucas in the books, for some reason Endor had disappeared or evaporated, leaving only the moons.

At least, that's what I remember. Its been a long time.

Disappeared...but right track.

Also of note if the substance is about the strength of Aluminim...near pointless in SW universe unless used for the weakest of things literally.

[drachefly]

Well, so would every other material that actually exists. And considering how we use Aluminum for most things that we don't like to be heavy, like cars and airplanes, a three-fold improvement in those properties would be pretty nifty.

They may not make the armor out of the stuff, but it may be in extensive use for a wide variety of devices, including the non-armor portions of warships.

As for alloying -- I don't think MSMH would play nice with other metals. First off, if the mix is poor in Hydrogen, then the special bonding effect disappears and you just have metal impregnated with H. That's really weak. Then, if you're doping other metals in, it's still a mess due to the collossal radius ratio. There goes any hope of a lattice. No mere perturbations for the prevention of crystal formation... it would be a train wreck.

[Ghost Rider]

Well, so would every other material that actually exists. And considering how we use Aluminum for most things that we don't like to be heavy, like cars and airplanes, a three-fold improvement in those properties would be pretty nifty.

They may not make the armor out of the stuff, but it may be in extensive use for a wide variety of devices, including the non-armor portions of warships.

Given most of what we've seen from regular building material...that's my point...simple aluminum is probably not what they use. Their variation of it, but given that apparently slaves can find substances in enough quantites on a backwater planet to construct racers out of metal much stronger and the vehicles as well....normal alumminum is likely not their material of choice.

Fuck warship/military applications.

[thelenocist]

So, then, what do they use to build all these things? What's the Death Star built out of? Carbon Nanotubes?

[Ghost Rider]

So, then, what do they use to build all these things? What's the Death Star built out of? Carbon Nanotubes?

Durasteel.

[drachefly]

Whatever the fuck that is.

[Ghost Rider]

Whatever the fuck that is.

And your point is?

[thelenocist]

And your point is?

I think it's pretty obvious that his point is Durasteel is just Unobtainium, which is pretty unsatisfying from the standpoint of people ostensibly trying to explain the Star Wars universe. Unless we know anything about Durasteel (Which is likely an alloy, given the name is a play on another alloy), you might as well say that Star Destroyers are built out of Smurfmetal, derived from Smurfington ore and spun using magic and Leprechauns.

Otherwise, where do the vast quantities of Durasteel come from? A 900km Death Star, 25,000 ISDs at least plus their complement of AT-ATs plus everything else in the vast universe. Where do they mine it? Is it an iron-based alloy? Is it a composite? A pure element? What's its tensile strength?

[Ghost Rider]

And your point is?

I think it's pretty obvious that his point is Durasteel is just Unobtainium, which is pretty unsatisfying from the standpoint of people ostensibly trying to explain the Star Wars universe. Unless we know anything about Durasteel (Which is likely an alloy, given the name is a play on another alloy), you might as well say that Star Destroyers are built out of Smurfmetal, derived from Smurfington ore and spun using magic and Leprechauns.

Ah so you want to know something that has never ONCE been explained in canon in any form beyond it's name and properties we have observed.

Too bad.

They say it's durasteel...live with it.

Otherwise, where do the vast quantities of Durasteel come from? A 900km Death Star, 25,000 ISDs at least plus their complement of AT-ATs plus everything else in the vast universe. Where do they mine it? Is it an iron-based alloy? Is it a composite? A pure element? What's its tensile strength?

We don't know how they mine, we don't know it's iron based, and we have not much knowledge except what is OBSERVED in the movies and EU.

This is how you derive information from personal presumptions is the worst way to go. You go from observations and build upon that...not form a conclusion and expect the obsrvations to match conclusions.

All we know is that they can obtain an vast amount of the substance and it can have many properties of a fantastic steel if not better. Beyond that we have no recorded observations from canon or EU sources.

Thus to add a point to your original post...Durasteel is established BY CANON. Yours isn't. Thus you are making a possiblity without knowing anything except it's a nice idea...at best.