The ID Card Bill Has Come

[Admiral Valdemar]

BBC News

Blunkett launches ID cards bill

ID cards will mean people have to give the state less information about themselves, Home Secretary David Blunkett has said.

Launching the Identity Cards Bill, Mr Blunkett said 80% of the public were behind the proposal and it was sad many politicians did not understand them.

Tony Blair said ID cards would "protect rather than erode civil liberties".

Lib Dems have vowed to stop the plans, which they regard as "deeply flawed". The Tories expressed some misgivings.

If the cards are introduced, they would be the first national ID since the Second World War ones ended half a century ago.

'Tackling fear'

The Home Office has said people will pay either £35 for a stand-alone ID card or £85 for a passport and ID card together.

The first cards would be issued in 2008 and Mr Blunkett has suggested it could be decided in 2011 or 2012 whether to make it compulsory for everybody to own the cards, although not to carry them.

The home secretary, who is facing claims about his private life, said the plans were part of a package to tackle people's fears about crime and security, both real and "subliminal".

"Strengthening our identity is one way or reinforcing people's confidence and sense of citizenship and well-being," he told MPs.

"Know your true identity and being able to demonstrate it is a positive plus and is a basic human right which all of us should treasure."

Further safeguards?

Ministers say the cards can help tackle terrorism, make national borders more secure, and prevent abuse of benefits and public services.

Mr Blunkett said he was ready to consider further safeguards for the scheme.

And rather than requiring more information from people, he said the cards would ensure a "less intrusive" way of collecting details than the national census.

But Labour MP Glenda Jackson said most of her constituents opposed the idea as she questioned the cost of checking ID cards.

Non person?

Shadow home secretary David Davis has stopped short of outright opposition but says his party will raise serious questions about the £3bn cost of the plans.

Lib Dem spokesman Mark Oaten said Home Office figures showed 277,421 passports were lost or stolen between 8 December last year and mid-November this year.

He added: "The cost and inconvenience of losing your ID card will be much worse - you will effectively be a non-person until the card is replaced.

"Labour's ID Cards Bill is deeply flawed and must be stopped."

'No silver bullet'

Civil liberties groups complain the cards will compromise fundamental individual freedoms.

But at his monthly news conference, Mr Blair said the cards were not a "silver bullet" to prevent terrorist attacks but nor did they produce "Big Brother" government.

"They will help protect civil liberties, not erode them, because people will be able to produce their own identification," he said.

"I simply point out that without proper security then there can be no opportunity."

Safeguards

Mr Blair told reporters there would be tough penalties for anybody misusing the database for the cards.

Anybody convicted of tampering with the database would face up to 10 years in jail, he said.

And anyone involved in administering the scheme who improperly disclosed information from the database could be jailed for up to two years.

Under the plans, a national database would be created holding personal information such as names, addresses, and biometric information for all those who are issued with a card.

Independent watchdog?

Biometrics include fingerprints, facial scans and iris scans, all of which are unique to each individual.

The bill would ensure that access to "specified public services" would be linked to production of a valid ID card and it will include penalties for those failing to register.

It would also create new criminal offences on the possession of false identity documents.

Mr Blunkett has already promised to allow the whole scheme to be overseen by a new independent watchdog.

So, to the resident residents of the UK; is this a good move do you reckon?

[Zac Naloen]

As long as there is some sort of safeguard if you lose your card i honestly don't have a problem with it. What new things could they learn that they can't get from watching my credit card? or checking my driving license details.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I like the less hassle this thing will bring (hopefully). People complain that the gov't is getting too much information about you with this but, to be frank, the gov't knows everything about you anyway. A single bloody card isn't going to change that, just make the whole thing simpler.

Just to sign up for the 24/7 rental place that opened nearby recently required my driver's licence, NUS card, debit card and a recent utility bill with my name and current address. Yeesh!

[Zac Naloen]

I like the less hassle this thing will bring (hopefully). People complain that the gov't is getting too much information about you with this but, to be frank, the gov't knows everything about you anyway. A single bloody card isn't going to change that, just make the whole thing simpler.

Just to sign up for the 24/7 rental place that opened nearby recently required my driver's licence, NUS card, debit card and a recent utility bill with my name and current address. Yeesh!

yeh exactly, the only way i can see there being a problem with this is if the card is lost your screwed. They need to have clear back ups in case this happens. Like a temporary card that will last you just long enough to get a replacement before dieing and then your screwed! cos your just a lazy bum.

[El Moose Monstero]

I'm for it, but I share the similar worries about what will happen if it gets lost or stolen, and I also have concerns about data security. It took all of 30 minutes for my new phone contract to recieve it's first phone call from someone trying to scam me after going into the shop - somewhere along the lines, that data was leaked or intercepted, there'd have to be serious measures in place to prevent similar occurrences.

I think I'd be more in favour of some sort of chip-implant than a card that can be lost or stolen - at least with that, you know where it is and can't forget it on the way to the airport, but then there's the various problems that go with that to worry about.

[Thunderfire]

I am not a resident of the UK but ID cards mostly benefit the government. It is easier to identify ordinary citizen with ID cards. They offer no protection against criminals or terrorist because they can and will be faked. [/i]

[Admiral Valdemar]

I am not a resident of the UK but ID cards mostly benefit the government. It is easier to identify ordinary citizen with ID cards. They offer no protection against criminals or terrorist because they can and will be faked. [/i]

The cards will have biometric data in them, along with the usual holograms etc. etc. If counterfeiters can fake these, they get my respect.

[Dartzap]

the arguments both for and agaisnt have their points.... We will have too see how the debate goes.. (again)

[Darth Wong]

People can already steal your identity if they have just a few critical pieces of personal information about you, so I don't see how this card makes it any easier. At least you have physical control of the thing; the typical identity thief is a cautious and cowardly person, which is why he relies upon a type of crime which is done by keyboard.

[Sharp-kun]

I am not a resident of the UK but ID cards mostly benefit the government. It is easier to identify ordinary citizen with ID cards. They offer no protection against criminals or terrorist because they can and will be faked. [/i]

Do passports offer no protection against things as they can also be faked? What about driving licenses etc? Are they useless?

Its possible that forged cards may come about at some point, but even if they do, will it offset the benefits by much? From what I've read about the plans, I imagine the effort involved in forging one would be enough to keep most criminals away. Just because something is not 100% successful does not make it worthless.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Aye, plus being a single document, it'll likely have more put into security as it'll be more convenient and important.

[Thunderfire]

The cards will have biometric data in them, along with the usual holograms etc. etc. If counterfeiters can fake these, they get my respect.

No problem. Someone has to collect these data. What happens if a corrupt civil servant gets bribed by terrorists/criminals?

[Keevan_Colton]

The cards will have biometric data in them, along with the usual holograms etc. etc. If counterfeiters can fake these, they get my respect.

No problem. Someone has to collect these data. What happens if a corrupt civil servant gets bribed by terrorists/criminals?

And what if terrorists or criminals could bribe members of the intelligence services into letting them have/do whatever they want?

Ensuring no single person is their own overseer would make it almost impossible to manage. Add to that the usual kind of checks governments tend to do for sensitive civil service positions and you've got as good as is humanly possible, at least in terms of corruption.

[Sharp-kun]

No problem. Someone has to collect these data. What happens if a corrupt civil servant gets bribed by terrorists/criminals?

What happens if the same happens at any one of the places that makes valid forms of ID today?

[Coyote]

I'm not as terrified of national ID cards, since I too believe that anything the gov't wants on me they can already get, or have. Actually, I'm of the impression that the credit card companies and other financial insitiutions have more on me than any government would care.

I'd be willing to go for it.

[Thunderfire]

And what if terrorists or criminals could bribe members of the intelligence services into letting them have/do whatever they want?

Ensuring no single person is their own overseer would make it almost impossible to manage

Germany has ID Cards and the above scenario already happened here. It has been used to smuggle illegal immigrants into germany.

[Sharp-kun]

I'm not as terrified of national ID cards, since I too believe that anything the gov't wants on me they can already get, or have.

They can, there's this thing called the census that covers quite a bit of stuff on you.

[Darth Wong]

And what if terrorists or criminals could bribe members of the intelligence services into letting them have/do whatever they want?

Ensuring no single person is their own overseer would make it almost impossible to manage

Germany has ID Cards and the above scenario already happened here. It has been used to smuggle illegal immigrants into germany.

Good thing the southwestern US doesn't have these ID cards, or they would have an illegal immmigrant problem ... wait a minute ...

[Vendetta]

My issue isn't with the cards themselves, but with the National Identity Register that goes with them.

It's a largely unnecessary, overly centralised, expensive system which, given the fact that our Beloved Government fucks up every single IT project they attempt isn't going to work.

The identity register raises concerns about who will have access to your personal data, how you can control it, and how you can enforce your rights granted by the Data Protection Act.

It's also unnecessary because the concept of the cards, with biometric data stored in an embedded microchip, makes forging them far too expensive to be worth the trouble, and stealing them worse than useless, because the people equipped with card readers and whatever biometric reader-du-jour eventually ends up being used will easily be able to see whether the information on the card matches the individual holding it.

I'm just hoping we get rid of Blunkett and get some more sensible ministers in before the whole thing goes completely baps skyward.

[Prozac the Robert]

The database is the only thing which makes the things remotely useful. I don't think simply forging the cards themselves would be particularly difficult, especially for any kind of large operation.

I have two main worries really. The first is that I'll need the card for absolutely everything by some point. So that loosing it would be a major inconvenience, and I'd have to take it with me everywhere.

The second is a kind of social justice thing. The cards are a kind of regressive tax, even if a very small one. £35 doesn't sound much, but it could matter a lot to some people. They should probably be free to people living below some minimum income.

There should also be a procedure for getting one even if you currently have no documentation to prove you are you to prevent people slipping through the system. And some sort of swift appeals process to smooth out any false matches between people.

[Joe]

While I don't really have a problem with ID cards per se, I don't see why they're so necessary that the state has to compel people to carry them. There's also that little thing about the Mark of the Beast and whatnot, but I think I can live with that.

[The Third Man]

Against. Strongly. The government is there to serve us, the citizens - having government surveilling us is too close to the other way round for my tastes.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Against. Strongly. The government is there to serve us, the citizens - having government surveilling us is too close to the other way round for my tastes.

You mean you object to the gov't having surveillance of the people? I hate to break it to you, pal, but they do that anyway. There is NOTHING this ID card will have that the gov't doesn't already know. MI5, MI6, GCHQ, CID, even Flying Squad has access to this information if need be.

[The Third Man]

You mean you object to the gov't having surveillance of the people? I hate to break it to you, pal, but they do that anyway. There is NOTHING this ID card will have that the gov't doesn't already know. MI5, MI6, GCHQ, CID, even Flying Squad has access to this information if need be.

Don't worry, you're not breaking it to me I know that. The key phrase is "if need be".

[HemlockGrey]

20 seconds on Google yields a plethora of websites which specialize in forging IDs, many of them located in the UK. Let's hope this national ID can overcome such problems.