Meta-Stable Metallic Hydrogen

[drachefly]

For all we know, 'Durasteel' is what they call MSMH... after all, it could be that the current theoretical estimates of its properties are far too conservative.

Or whatever. It is, to put it mildly, speculation. That is, in large part, what these fora are for.

[Ghost Rider]

And since they don't explain it...it would be best not to presume as such.

For all I could say it's an unknown element we have no knowledge of, and thus is just on par with your explaination.

They don't go beyond the explaination except they infuse it with Neutronium.

Beyond that anyone can make a billion assumptions and unless backed with something from canon is no different then saing it's made from pink fairies. Trying to insert pet theories is nice for assuming but doesn't mean it comes any closer to a real answer.

[drachefly]

Well, 'unknown element' was OK back in the day when we didn't have a pretty comprehensive list of the elements, like in 1910 or something. Unless the nuclear valence closure expected around atomic number 130 (or wherever it was) is several orders of magnitude more stable than expected, then whatever it is, we've seen it already.

In any case, it's one thing to say, "Gee, this is a plausible explanation. And so is that. And so is that." which resembles the original point of this thread... and it's another thing to say "Aha! This kind of makes sense, so it must be true!", which is what you seem to think it was.

[Ghost Rider]

Well, 'unknown element' was OK back in the day when we didn't have a pretty comprehensive list of the elements, like in 1910 or something. Unless the nuclear valence closure expected around atomic number 130 (or wherever it was) is several orders of magnitude more stable than expected, then whatever it is, we've seen it already.

And you do understand since we aren't in the Star Wars universe that would be most presumptious.

We don't know their science or most things...the best we can do is make a best guess assumption of how things work based upon our knowledge of physics and chemistry.

If they found a metal that does this and does not exist on our chart...it is so.

No different then when Trek makes up a metal. It somehow exists, we have to rationalize what it does, and go from there...not try to go "How is this realistic"

In any case, it's one thing to say, "Gee, this is a plausible explanation. And so is that. And so is that." which resembles the original point of this thread... and it's another thing to say "Aha! This kind of makes sense, so it must be true!", which is what you seem to think it was.

Backed with canon helps given it's all we have. Saying it might be this or that is pointless unless one observes it in action first by some way. Making possibilites doesn't help anything except give the ideas of unfounded possibilties.

[Ghost Rider]

Ultimately my argument is saying this

So you're building entire moons out of metal. Load-bearing legs of AT-AT walkers out of metal. Fleets of enormous, mile-long starships out of metal. That's a lot of metal. So rather than using Unobtainium, why not build it out of a real theoretical material: Metastable Metallic Hydrogen,

Is rather presumptious given they have said they use something they call durasteel.

They can apparently produce enough of it to have the levels of which are to number trillions upon trillions of starships and no shortage of it after 25,000 years.

They have their material, and going and adding something out of the blue is the same as going "It's obvious that their weapons are faulty...they should be using Pu-139 rounds instead!"

[thelenocist]

Actually, my line of thinking is pretty rational and straightforward:

1. They have, as you've said, a near limitless source of building material.

2. The heavier an element, the less there is of it, based on the fact that you need more supernovas to create the heavy stuff. If there was an even better substance that we don't know about yet--even farther down the periodic table--it'd be very, very rare.

3. Those ships look like they're built out of metal and not polymers. Durasteel is quite obviously the name of a metal, since its got 'steel' in the name, which we all know to be a metallic alloy.

So:

1. 90% of the normal matter of the universe is hydrogen. That's a lot. Way, way, way more than iron and far, far more than, say titanium or any other heavier element.

2. Occam's Razor: The Star Wars universe appears similar to our own. Rather than postulate what would be in our universe to be highly unlikely (An abundant supply of some kind of superheavy mystery element) let's try to figure out how it could work using some basic knowledge of astronomy.

3. Durasteel is an alloy, based on its name (Again, steel is an alloy). Now, it could just be a coincidence, but we assume that turbolasers are lasers, right? As an alloy, it could be made out of any substance, somehow treated with neutronium (Fine as a catalyst or alloying agent but so extremely uncommon, given the small number of neutron stars, that we can't assume trillions of ships are built out of it.)

Therefore, I consider it reasonable to posit that the alloy contains large quantities of MSMH. Treated, alloyed and/or constructed in such a way as to have the capabilities seen in Star Wars.

That's a rational solution, can you present a more suitable choice for the makeup of Durasteel?

[thelenocist]

And since they don't explain it...it would be best not to presume as such.

And, really, if we take this line of thinking, what's the point of all of the articles on this site? What's the point of this board?

[Ghost Rider]

Yes, but you keep compounding with later assumptions.

Saying that it might be made of this is no different then anyone going "They use a element called Protious!"

You then compound as the topic goes on that it's get alloyed into whatever they alloy the material with, and one mentiones eariler that it's unlikely to be a good alloy given how Hydrogen bonds.

It has the following of at least a possibility...yes, it does.

Thus if you want to go "well it's just a theory!" One should at least try to see if one can use something with a hint of backing from canon instead of adding something that is never inferred or mentioned in canon by any capacity. With that idea I can pretty much take any good sounding theory and claim it has a possibility/

[Illuminatus Primus]

There's no evidence.

And quite frankly, all the metal ever seen in all the films is infintesimally small in astronomical terms; there's probably that much metal and a lot more in our star system.

[Ghost Rider]

And since they don't explain it...it would be best not to presume as such.

And, really, if we take this line of thinking, what's the point of all of the articles on this site? What's the point of this board?

Observations from canon...so I ask again...does your theory have ANY backing within Canon.

[thelenocist]

Saying that it might be made of this is no different then anyone going "They use a element called Protious!"

I've never heard of an element called Protious. Metallic Hydrogen exists, it's the interior of Jupiter and the cause of its massive magnetic field. No one has ever seen Protious, no scientist has ever theorized anything about Protious. Hydrogen makes up almost all the normal matter in the universe. I consider these to be fundamental differences.

You then compound as the topic goes on that it's get alloyed into whatever they alloy the material with, and one mentiones eariler that it's unlikely to be a good alloy given how Hydrogen bonds.

Yep, if you can't alloy MSMH, then you'd have to treat it somehow. Sure, that may be impossible, but maybe it isn't. We're talking about a 25,000 year-old space-faring society. Maybe they figured it out, along with that whole FTL thing.

Thus if you want to go "well it's just a theory!" One should at least try to see if one can use something with a hint of backing from canon instead of adding something that is never inferred or mentioned in canon by any capacity. With that idea I can pretty much take any good sounding theory and claim it has a possibility/

I don't use the hint of backing from canon, I use the indisputable quantity of starships. You'd need a common material to build that many. How many skyscrapers and cars are built out of titanium? Rubendium? Protious? No, they use steel and aluminum, not because these materials are better, but because their constituent elements are very, very common.

And the existence of MSMH is a scientific theory, not an X-Files theory or a "Wow, wouldn't it be cool if" theory, so it's a little more credible, to me. As I recall, lambasting a thing for being a theory is the kind of wrong-headed argument used by proponents of creationism, because "evolution is just a theory".

[Ghost Rider]

You are adding something that has no backing in canon. So you have to have the burden of proof that your theory is any better then others. Just because it exists is not proof that it's used in SW any more then their version of fusion is hydrogen based.

You do not know how the stuff is made and have theorized they MIGHT be using this.Without a canonical backing this is no different then saying they are all made of Iron, and somehow their process produces the properties we see.

Thus unless you can prove it has canonical backing this is no different then saying they use a super unknown metal they discovered and we do not know of yet or will ever.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Look, we've been understanding, and now you're just another case of Clinging to the Hypothesis.

Its not in canon so its not compelling. And no, the quantity of starships and their mass does not imply the necessity of lower, more plentiful elements. You grossly overstimate the amount of material we know of in the Star Wars galaxy in astronomical terms. Especially when the vast majority of each ship's weight is ultra-dense reactant which is refined (probably) from stellar corpses.

[thelenocist]

You are adding something that has no backing in canon. So you have to have the burden of proof that your theory is any better then others. Just because it exists is not proof that it's used in SW any more then their version of fusion is hydrogen based.

You do not know how the stuff is made and have theorized they MIGHT be using this.Without a canonical backing this is no different then saying they are all made of Iron, and somehow their process produces the properties we see.

Thus unless you can prove it has canonical backing this is no different then saying they use a super unknown metal they discovered and we do not know of yet or will ever.

Alright. On the one hand, I agree that no book or movie has a Star Wars character stating the equivelent of, "They're trying to knock out the MSMH refinery orbiting the Deneb supergiant." I considered the point of this thread to be more along the lines of, 'This would make sense' rather than, 'I've figured it out and I demand it's accepted as canon!!' (The latter would require much frothing on my part)

On the other hand, to just dismiss this, as if I'd shown up with some ill-thought out fan fiction about the discovery of Protious by early scientists is just silly. Hydrogen is more plentiful and more available and much better for building (In this form) than iron (The universe, by mass, is 75% hydrogen and 25% helium, with the remaining, barely mentionable amount being any heavier element). And iron's pretty frickin' common in comparison to heavier elements.

So, no, it's not like saying, "All Star Wars ships are made out of iron and somehow their processes introduce these properties". It's more like saying, "I think an advanced society with several thousand millenia of experience with various building material would be attracted to the convenience and abundance of Hydrogen." and "The same society that regularly juants around the galaxy at ludicrous speeds and creates weapons that can put out teratons of power might also find a way to make such an abundant building material more resilient."

Anyway, I concede that it's not canon, I just thought it was a decent explanation, but maybe a better approach would be to estimate the amount of mass we're dealing with here. We're talking trillions of ships, right? Do we have a mean tonnage? Any SWAGs? Some references:

Iron, by mass, is the tenth most abundant element in the universe, which isn't saying too much in comparison to helium and hydrogen. 1,100,000ppb or 1 gram of every kilogram of normal matter in the universe is iron. Compare that to 750g out of every kilo for hydrogen. Neutron star matter, in comparison, is very rare.

So, Iron's 34% of the Earth, so that's, roughy, a sextillion (21 zeroes worth of) metric tons of iron in the Earth (Mostly the core, natch). Mercury's got a big core for such a small planet, but Mars doesn't--who cares--let's assume the same for every terrestrial planet, plus the core of each of the gas giants, so that's 8 sextonnes of iron. So, sure, a trillion ships worth if every ship is a billion metric tonnes of iron. Does that sound right?

Now, that implies cracking every terrestrial planet open as well as somehow clearing out the hydrogen mess around the gas giants (An act that's contradicted by canon, as I understand it, because the Suncrusher was hid in a gas giant, implying that's not the kind of place Star Wars vessels could go.)

In comparison, Jupiter has, roughly, half a septillion (24 zeroes) metric tonnes of hydrogen. And it's right there, on the surface. You just need a big vacuum. Seems more convenient (Maybe that's what happened to ol' Endor...) and you're not cracking open terrestrial planets all the time, which seems like a messy operation that the Old Republic EPA would have protested.

Of course, if the someone mined Endor clean at some point*, it would be at odds with hiding the Suncrusher in a gas giant, because at some point it would be mined, too. As a counter, though, considering how much material you get from a single gas giant (Not to mention how much you'd get from a supergiant), they'd probably be millenia-long operations taking place all over the galaxy, so hiding the Suncrusher in a random gas giant would look more like hiding treasure in an old salt mine (Not a bad analogy from a literary standpoint...).

*Even more MSMH wild-ass guessing: Maybe Endor was mined out recently, and the Emperor hid a sufficient store of MSMH in the system (Diverted from the final load from Endor, a huge amount but trivial in comparison to the amount coming from such an operation) for the future creation of his Death Star...

[Ghost Rider]

All the raw materials of the second Death Star were shipped to the Endor moon by Xizor's shipping company(SoTE).

Thus no mining was involved at Endor.

As for hiding the Suncrusher...possibly because Kyp thought it would be a good place...given how close the Falcon could approach neutron stars...and the durability of the Suncrusher...this would a trival act to enter a gas giant.

Also the point is you are now saying that they were using MSMH, which why should we assume given we have no idea from canon of how the hell Durasteel is in fact created nor what are it's components. So asking it makes sense should have some observation from canon rather then presuming because this material sounds good, they are using it. Or as you proposed in the beginning they should be using instead.

[thelenocist]

All the raw materials of the second Death Star were shipped to the Endor moon by Xizor's shipping company(SoTE).

Thus no mining was involved at Endor.

I've heard this but I've never read Shadows, is the claim made by a reputable source?

Also the point is you are now saying that they were using MSMH, which why should we assume given we have no idea from canon of how the hell Durasteel is in fact created nor what are it's components. So asking it makes sense should have some observation from canon rather then presuming because this material sounds good, they are using it. Or as you proposed in the beginning they should be using instead.

I never said they're using MSMH. Christ, I couched the first few posts with enough qualifiers (Even making fun of myself for saying "real theoretical") to choke a horse. I don't understand, though, why you're so combatively against the idea, you've made no real arguments against it that I can argue with (Such as Illuminatus Primus's point about the quantity of material on the astronomical scale), all you've said is it's not canon, so you won't listen. Great.

So what, exactly, is the alternative stance? I understand that you think Durasteel doesn't have anything to do with MSMH. So what is it? Neutronium (The material I assume Illuminatus Primus is referring to when he refers to an "ultra-dense reactant which is refined (probably) from stellar corpses")? Mystery element? Smurfmetal?

[Ghost Rider]

No one knows...that is the point. The SW universe has said zilch, and that is the point.

We only can go it displays this property and has this level of strength in the low to high end range. As to what it is made of, no one within that universe gives much if any mention. It does what it has to and virtually no stories are about any architects or engineers within the SW universe thus no discussion at what are the elements that are the make up of Durasteel or Duracrete or even Plastisteel or anything they use as common goods. We can only make observations on what we have read and seen, and they have made vitrually no mention of the material that go into construction.

And as for Shadows it's an offical source...so unless a canon source contradicts it, it stands.

[thelenocist]

Well, I am new to this kind of thing, so I kinda figured this is how you went about filling in those blanks. I didn't mean to step on anyone's toes.

As to the SoTE, I know it's canon, but if it was Xizor himself bragging about it, then that's not so reliable (He is a Sith crimelord, after all, he'd probably claim he started the Jedi order, if he thought anyone would believe him). Maybe the Black Sun just shipped the (still enormous quantity of) systems and non-structural material...

By the way, if we're saying that the Empire uses neutron star material then that's support for MSMH, because neutronium would, by necessity, need to be in a metastable state if it remains as dense as it does when removed from the enormous gravitational pressure of a neutron star. Support for subatomic metastability among building material would lend credence to support for the less complex (And actually observed) atomic metastability.

[Sarevok]

thelenocist Star Wars hull alloys cant be MSMH. Firstly their hull is solid even when very close to the sun (orbiting planets like Tatooine, Naboo etc). From what I understand MSMH occurs only at very low temperatures.

Secondly MSMH does not have the strengths required for Star Wars hulls. Star Wars ships can accelerate at thousandas of gees. I doubt a MSMH hull can withstand such acceleration.

Thirdly Star Wars hulls can take massive damage from gigaton level weaponry. Again a MSMH hull does not have the necessary properties to even come close to surviving such hits.

[thelenocist]

thelenocist Star Wars hull alloys cant be MSMH. Firstly their hull is solid even when very close to the sun (orbiting planets like Tatooine, Naboo etc). From what I understand MSMH occurs only at very low temperatures.

It's never happened. But Metallic Hydrogen occurs at extremely high temperatures and pressures, such as those found inside a gas giant. MSMH is only theoretical but wouldn't be so delicate.

Secondly MSMH does not have the strengths required for Star Wars hulls. Star Wars ships can accelerate at thousandas of gees. I doubt a MSMH hull can withstand such acceleration.

Thirdly Star Wars hulls can take massive damage from gigaton level weaponry. Again a MSMH hull does not have the necessary properties to even come close to surviving such hits.

Granted. A big aluminum cruiser wouldn't be able to handle either of those. My assumption would be that they'd use this material as their basis and use architectural techniques, various field generation techniques and metalurgical techniques to achieve the kind of resiliency necessary for such activities. Not that there's any support for any of this, just speculating.

And, really, maybe I should've started this topic in a different section, since it's more of a general sci-fi principle and the friction seems to be caused by applying it to Star Wars more than the principle itself.

[Ghost Rider]

Well, I am new to this kind of thing, so I kinda figured this is how you went about filling in those blanks. I didn't mean to step on anyone's toes.

As to the SoTE, I know it's canon, but if it was Xizor himself bragging about it, then that's not so reliable (He is a Sith crimelord, after all, he'd probably claim he started the Jedi order, if he thought anyone would believe him). Maybe the Black Sun just shipped the (still enormous quantity of) systems and non-structural material...

The Emperor ordered this. I doubt he was implying some sort of hyperbole. And he ordered for raw materials alone.

By the way, if we're saying that the Empire uses neutron star material then that's support for MSMH, because neutronium would, by necessity, need to be in a metastable state if it remains as dense as it does when removed from the enormous gravitational pressure of a neutron star. Support for subatomic metastability among building material would lend credence to support for the less complex (And actually observed) atomic metastability.

It adds the possibility like everything else. But unless somehow in someway confirmed that is how it's even convcieved of...it's still at best a nice hypothesis. In the end...it sounds more that you want this thing to exist in some form in SW because you like it.

In the end we don't know because nothing has been said...so your thoughts on the matter fall under speculative possiblities.

[Winston Blake]

3. Durasteel is an alloy, based on its name (Again, steel is an alloy). Now, it could just be a coincidence, but we assume that turbolasers are lasers, right?

No, we don't, because turbolasers, like durasteel, have properties beyond science as we know it. Anyway, trying to explain things based on their name is almost pointless.

As an alloy, it could be made out of any substance, somehow treated with neutronium (Fine as a catalyst or alloying agent but so extremely uncommon, given the small number of neutron stars, that we can't assume trillions of ships are built out of it.)

Therefore, I consider it reasonable to posit that the alloy contains large quantities of MSMH. Treated, alloyed and/or constructed in such a way as to have the capabilities seen in Star Wars.

You hypothesised that SW materials are made of MSMH, probably just because you found it on Google and thought 'gee cool!'. It was pointed out that it isn't even close to the properties required by known SW materials such as durasteel. You then said 'well maybe with their superscience alloying/treating methods they could have made it really strong, etc'. The point we're making is that if MSMH needs outlandish superscience to achieve the properties observed, then it's no better than just saying they make their ships out of something like plain iron (wow, an even more realistic material!), specially alloyed/treated with superscience.

That's a rational solution, can you present a more suitable choice for the makeup of Durasteel?

And since they don't explain it...it would be best not to presume as such.

And, really, if we take this line of thinking, what's the point of all of the articles on this site? What's the point of this board?

We're NOT trying to explain the technology of SW, but merely quantify it. There's a big difference. Speculate all you want, but i think you've run this one into the ground.

[thelenocist]

The Emperor ordered this. I doubt he was implying some sort of hyperbole. And he ordered for raw materials alone.

So in SoTE, the Emperor stated that Black Sun did all this?

It adds the possibility like everything else. But unless somehow in someway confirmed that is how it's even convcieved of...it's still at best a nice hypothesis. In the end...it sounds more that you want this thing to exist in some form in SW because you like it.

In the end we don't know because nothing has been said...so your thoughts on the matter fall under speculative possiblities.

Agreed. And I wouldn't lose any sleep if Lucas showed up tomorrow and confirmed that Imperial starship hulls are built out of smurfmetal. I just thought it was a cool idea.

[thelenocist]

We're NOT trying to explain the technology of SW, but merely quantify it. There's a big difference. Speculate all you want, but i think you've run this one into the ground.

Oh. My mistake. Didn't mean to piss in your Wheaties.

[Winston Blake]

thelenocist Star Wars hull alloys cant be MSMH. Firstly their hull is solid even when very close to the sun (orbiting planets like Tatooine, Naboo etc). From what I understand MSMH occurs only at very low temperatures.

You might be thinking of normal metallic hydrogen. According to the wikipedia article, MSMH could be used to make lighter cars, so it's resilient enough to handle high (ie room) temp/pressure.