SSD vs its cost in ISD's

[Illuminatus Primus]

I believe that the 5000 figure refers to the number of individual heavy weapons (e.g., the ISD has 64 weapons). This is a ratio of around 80, which is rather conservative considering the much larger volume ratio (100+).

[Enforcer Talen]

I hoped it could be somehow guessed, or maybe stated in a EU scource

Pellaeon in Darksaber states the cost of building the Executor nearly bankrupted the Empire, if memory serves me correctly.

It was not so much the cost of building it, but the cost of losing it (which allowed the Rebels to win the battle of Endor) that nearly bankrupted the Empire.

again, why would losing it even matter? you could include the death star as well, but if it can be built in secret in 10 months, its not *that* expensive compared to whats available.

[SCVN 2812]

I believe that the 5000 figure refers to the number of individual heavy weapons (e.g., the ISD has 64 weapons). This is a ratio of around 80, which is rather conservative considering the much larger volume ratio (100+).

Well ITW is understandably vague as to just what that can mean. Certainly 5,000 heavy turbos and ions would be more in line with the vast majority of the turret-esque bumps being actual turrets.

I personally preferred to err on the side of conservatism in that regard, mainly because as extreme as they are at a nearly 60:1 ratio of ISDs to Executor in combat value, it does imply that the Rebel Fleet had a shred of a prayer if the Executor 'got serious.' Though the Rebels closing to point blank range where fewer weapons could be brought to bare on a single, smaller target certainly would have played its role.

[Darth Sephiroth]

The figures quoted by Starships of the Galaxy are implausibly low. Strike Force: Shantipole stated that the Nebulon-B frigate (194 million credits) cost less than one-twentieth as much as an Imperial Star Destroyer (more than 3.88 billion credits). According to Starships of the Galaxy, a Nebulon-B frigate would in fact cost some 48.33 million credits more than an Imperial Star Destroyer. As mentioned in "A Billion Here, a Billion There...," a single one of the 37 voting sponsors of the Corporate Sector Authority was required to invest some 50 quadrillion credits, which under the Wizards of the Coast figure would be equivalent to purchase of 343 million Imperial Star Destroyers (the figure is reduced to 13 million Imperial Star Destroyers using the West End Games price).

Simple conversion from the 145.67 million credit price to the 3.88 billion credit price yields a cost of approximately 494.3 billion credits for a Super Star Destroyer (WEG). The WEG figures (3.88 billion and 494.3 billion credits) yields a cost ratio of approximately 127/1 for the Imperial Star Destroyer and Super Star Destroyer, while the WotC figures (145.67 million and 1,143.35 million) yield a ratio of approximately 8/1. Using WEG figures, a voting sponsor could afford to purchase 101,153 Super Star Destroyers, whereas using the WotC figures would allow the same voting sponsor to purchase 43,731,141 Super Star Destroyers.

Most of the problems are fixed in the Erratta

[Praxis]

Pellaeon in Darksaber states the cost of building the Executor nearly bankrupted the Empire, if memory serves me correctly.

It was not so much the cost of building it, but the cost of losing it (which allowed the Rebels to win the battle of Endor) that nearly bankrupted the Empire.

again, why would losing it even matter? you could include the death star as well, but if it can be built in secret in 10 months, its not *that* expensive compared to whats available.

Because it had all the best and brightest officers in the Imperial navy, all the big brass on board, and the Empire of course attributes Palpatine's death to the Rebel attack rather than to Luke Skywalker.

[Lord of the Farce]

It was not so much the cost of building it, but the cost of losing it (which allowed the Rebels to win the battle of Endor) that nearly bankrupted the Empire.

again, why would losing it even matter? you could include the death star as well, but if it can be built in secret in 10 months, its not *that* expensive compared to whats available.

Because it had all the best and brightest officers in the Imperial navy, all the big brass on board, and the Empire of course attributes Palpatine's death to the Rebel attack rather than to Luke Skywalker.

"I can't believe it," Pellaeon said beside her. "Only the Executor was this big -- and that one ship practically bankrupted the Empire."
The context is pretty clear, the "bankrupted" comment is related to the ship's size.

[Enforcer Talen]

It was not so much the cost of building it, but the cost of losing it (which allowed the Rebels to win the battle of Endor) that nearly bankrupted the Empire.

again, why would losing it even matter? you could include the death star as well, but if it can be built in secret in 10 months, its not *that* expensive compared to whats available.

Because it had all the best and brightest officers in the Imperial navy, all the big brass on board, and the Empire of course attributes Palpatine's death to the Rebel attack rather than to Luke Skywalker.

the emperor's death would matter. best and brightest -shrugs- you spend a lot of them in a war. I dont see how that would make much of a difference.

"ok, we lost everyone who scored perfect on their tests. fortunately, since we have 200 quadrillion people in the academy, finding another 125,000 perfect scores shouldnt be too hard."

[Praxis]

again, why would losing it even matter? you could include the death star as well, but if it can be built in secret in 10 months, its not *that* expensive compared to whats available.

Because it had all the best and brightest officers in the Imperial navy, all the big brass on board, and the Empire of course attributes Palpatine's death to the Rebel attack rather than to Luke Skywalker.

"I can't believe it," Pellaeon said beside her. "Only the Executor was this big -- and that one ship practically bankrupted the Empire."
The context is pretty clear, the "bankrupted" comment is related to the ship's size.

Hm, I seemed to recall him also ranting about how the best and brightest went down with that ship and its loss caused the loss of the Battle of Endor. or maybe that was Heir to the Empire...

[Ghost Rider]

Because it had all the best and brightest officers in the Imperial navy, all the big brass on board, and the Empire of course attributes Palpatine's death to the Rebel attack rather than to Luke Skywalker.

"I can't believe it," Pellaeon said beside her. "Only the Executor was this big -- and that one ship practically bankrupted the Empire."
The context is pretty clear, the "bankrupted" comment is related to the ship's size.

Hm, I seemed to recall him also ranting about how the best and brightest went down with that ship and its loss caused the loss of the Battle of Endor. or maybe that was Heir to the Empire...

That was Heir, he was reminsing the good ol days.

[drachefly]

Getting back to the tactical question...
How many of the SSD's guns can be brought to bear on the weakest portion of its fire arc? One would think that ISD's could run rings around it, so they might be able to ignore the bulk of its firepower by maneuvering appropriately.

[Howedar]

It appears to be in the hundreds.

[Connor MacLeod]

One Executor-class vessel is worth twenty typical star destroyers. (ref: Darksaber) HIMS Executor herself took only a month or two to construct. (ref: Marvel STAR WARS)

You have a quote on this I assume.

[Admiral Drason]

Actually, according to the Starships of the Galaxy book, an Imp Star Deuce and an SSD take roughly the same time period to construct, mainly because of the amount of workers maximum and the way it works, the Impstar Deuce would take about 18 months while the SSD would be 21 months.

SSD cost 1,143,350,000
ISDII cost 145,670,000 (75,500,000 to upgrade an ISD[guessed cost])

These are inaccurate due to the fact that the DSII took six months to be built 60%.

It would take the Empire 10 months to build the DSII which has a 900KM diameter. (Darth Wongs numbers) So the Empire could build Command ships and Star Destroyers in a matter of days.

[Illuminatus Primus]

One Executor-class vessel is worth twenty typical star destroyers. (ref: Darksaber) HIMS Executor herself took only a month or two to construct. (ref: Marvel STAR WARS)

You have a quote on this I assume.

Which? I do not have Darksaber with me, but I distinctly remember this comparison. As for the Marvel STAR WARS figure, one must remember that wildly larger figures are simply impractical: the Yavin system was locked down under blockade from the Executor's lay-down to completion (which was for the purpose of delivering the symbolic coup'd'grace to the rebel base). For this blockade to be sustained for over a year (and longer than the projected completion time of the Death Star II - 60% in six months so 100% in ten months) is absurd.

Anyway, a compilation of chronological information extrapolated from other sources and in fitting together the rather compressed events of Marvel STAR WARS post-ANH here was what made me realize just how quickly the vessels could be constructed from lay-down to completion when there was a pressing need (e.g., Vader saying so).

Assuming this work is accurate (and it so far seems impeccable and checks out based on my knowledge), subtracting the figure of "Three months and two days after the Battle of Yavin" for Vader's conceptualization of the Executor from the date it apparently completes its first combat action "Five months, two weeks and five days after the Battle of Yavin" places an absolute maximum on its construction time: two months, two weeks, and three days. The construction is actually quite obviously less, as the design had to be finalized, and all the bureaucracy rammed through. Additionally, there's the matter of crew training and shakedown cruises.

Still, a little over two and a half months is a very good construction rate. The fall of Yavin, lead by Vader aboard Executor, occured at six months after the Battle of Yavin. The construction duration at the very most (assuming that projected dating in the thread linked above is highly flawed) must still be significantly less than that figure.

EDIT:

Cronus smiled, his expressive face showing his obvious enjoyment at her reaction - but it was Pelleaon who answered. "It's a Super Star Destroyer."
Cronus nodded eagerly. "Worth twenty Imperial Star Destroyers," he said, his eyes flashing with pride.
(bolded emphasis mine)

[Lord Darkblade]

The ISDs.

In the Rouge Squadron books 300 Proton Torpedo Launchers (and concussion missle tubes) is a serious threat to an SSD.

ISDs if memory serves carry 60 Proton Torpedo launchers. So assuming that SSD > 5 ISDs in cost the the SSD will lose.

However the SSD and the other huge star destroyers (SSD being 8KM and the others slightly more, with the ISD at 1.6) were not designed to be cost effective but weapons of terror... most fleets did not carry 5+ ISDs and the SSD could easily smash smaller ships due to volumes of fire. SSDs were powerful however not overly powerful as they were still pretty easily killable (every ISD thats been fought so far in the books/movies has been a pretty easy kill).

[consequences]

The ISDs.

In the Rouge Squadron books 300 Proton Torpedo Launchers (and concussion missle tubes) is a serious threat to an SSD.

ISDs if memory serves carry 60 Proton Torpedo launchers. So assuming that SSD > 5 ISDs in cost the the SSD will lose.

However the SSD and the other huge star destroyers (SSD being 8KM and the others slightly more, with the ISD at 1.6) were not designed to be cost effective but weapons of terror... most fleets did not carry 5+ ISDs and the SSD could easily smash smaller ships due to volumes of fire. SSDs were powerful however not overly powerful as they were still pretty easily killable (every ISD thats been fought so far in the books/movies has been a pretty easy kill).

300 capital concussion missiles, fired on tracking data provided by others so that they didn't have to use active sensors to give themselves away to PD.
Arguing based on Rogue Squadron is like basing real world combat on Rambo. For one thing, the length of the SSD is wrong(and you will get a strip torn off of you by others for making that mistake, canon visuals make it 17.6 km), and Stackpole admitted that he used the X-wing game mechanics as a basis for his writing. The man is a hack, who did exactly the same thing with the B-tech novels, straight game mechanics, with no common sense or thinking on how the world really works.

On a side note, an ISD mark one or two has zero missile tubes listed in the available literature, although models produced twenty or so years after Endor are known to have at least fifteen missiles worth of capability, and that's fifteen missiles total, one three round launcher, fired five times. Not a three hundred missile simultaneous swarm.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The ISDs.

In the Rouge Squadron books 300 Proton Torpedo Launchers (and concussion missle tubes) is a serious threat to an SSD.

Context is important. The Lusankya, blithely ignorant, sailed right into targeting and fire range of the missile tubes (which are all heavy capital grade weapons) next to the space station, and thus was promptly fucked. Such an enormous salvo at close-range would overtax both the shielding systems and the point defenses (though Bacta War clearly implies that the point defenses aboard Lusankya were deficient, either by reason of poor maintanence, poor crew quality, or other extenuating circumstances. It is clear that they did not play a significant role in protecting the Lusankya against missile attack.

In a combat situation with an Executor not buried under Coruscant for about seven years and promptly isolated in a small area of the galaxy deprived of its typical logistical support train and repair yards. It is also likely that it would have a superior crew and officers, and more capable point defenses.

Speaking of crew quality - I believe Kaz hypothesized that the Lusankya's crew was a combination poorly trained and caught off-guard that resulted in poor coordination and use of point defenses, shield allocation, and damage control that largely doomed Lusankya.

ISDs if memory serves carry 60 Proton Torpedo launchers. So assuming that SSD > 5 ISDs in cost the the SSD will lose.

First of all, it is important to determine what type of warhead we are discussing. "Proton torpedo" is about as useful as "explosive missile," We are denied discussion of yield, the focused nature of the detonation, speed, etc.

And secondly, to my knowledge only refitted New Republic ISDs Emancipator, Liberator, and Chimaera were endowed with significant missile fire capability.

However the SSD and the other huge star destroyers (SSD being 8KM and the others slightly more, with the ISD at 1.6) were not designed to be cost effective but weapons of terror... most fleets did not carry 5+ ISDs and the SSD could easily smash smaller ships due to volumes of fire. SSDs were powerful however not overly powerful as they were still pretty easily killable (every ISD thats been fought so far in the books/movies has been a pretty easy kill).

The book portrayal of ISDs and SSDs is often highly suspect. First of all, these are written sources and under suspension of disbelief, as both Mike and Dr. Saxton have noted, are probably subject to intrinsic bias for the winners (i.e., the Rebels). The ISD and SSD depictions are suspect in many ways - continually the Rebels win by gimmick or skin-of-their-teeth, and the ISD and SSD alike are said to have weapons systems highly incongruent with that depicted in the films, and often their shield and especially point defense capabilities are highly and unrealistically understated (AOTC ICS points out the correlation between volume and probable available shield strength and the ubiqituous small defense weaponry (which is easily observable in the films, especially TESB and the Falcon chases).

The SSDs are also not inefficient. As pointed out, they probably take less than two and a half months to build at a yard like Fondor at Vader's whim, and certainly much less than six months. They mass over one hundred times that of an ISD, but appear to carry about 80 times the weapons at a cost of only 20x, and less than 10x the crew needs. These seem to be the earmarks of a highly efficient weapon, being almost across the board more-bang-for-your-buck on a pound-for-pound basis when compared to the common ISD.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Speaking of crew quality - I believe Kaz hypothesized that the Lusankya's crew was a combination poorly trained and caught off-guard that resulted in poor coordination and use of point defenses, shield allocation, and damage control that largely doomed Lusankya.

Actually, the poor quality bit was pretty much from a universal pile. I can honestly take no credit for inventing it, and I don't even know who invented this idea first. I think it is one of those consensus that just kinda "came".

[Illuminatus Primus]

Yeah, but the specificity in discussing poor tactics in shield allocation and damage control especially was an idea espoused by you.

[drachefly]

(I hope this isn't old enough to count as necromancy)
(link extracted to render text visible in quote)

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/exec.detail.html:
It appears to be in the hundreds.

That's the weakest fire arc listed, yeah, but I don't see anything in the ventral aft arc. Though there is a good dorsal aft density, they can't very well fire through the tail at anything just below their horizon. Of course, a lot of the ventral guns could fire along the surface if it's far down enough, but looking at the geometry, there appears to be a significant region to the direct aft in which there is no coverage.

How did this happen? Is it because the drive emissions themselves constitute a strong enough weapon to deter ships from flying there (a la Niven)? Were SSDs never intended to go unescorted, with ships devoted to keeping their six clear?

Or is the SSD just much faster and more capable of turning than suspected? Certainly it managed to cover quite a bit of distance quickly without any intentional effort when it went out of control and crashed into the DS2.

[Wicked Pilot]

An SSD could probably take out several ISDs before it loses shields, thus taking out the number of guns than can be brought to bare against it, while maintaining it's own. Plus, the SSD's lower surface area to volume ratio gives it quite the shielding advantage.

[Serapindal]

An Imperial Class-I Star Destroyer has...

60 Borstel NK-7 Ion Cannon Batteries

60 Taim and Bak XX9 Heavy Turbolaser Batteries


A Imperial Class-II Star Destroyer has...

50 heavy turbolaser batteries

50 heavy turbolaser cannons

20 ions cannons


A Super Star Destroyer has...

250 heavy turbolaser batteries

250 turbolaser batteries

250 concussion missile tubes

250 ion cannons

Draw your own conclusions people!

[Illuminatus Primus]

Did you even read the previous pages? And your stats - however unrealistic they are - don't give us the variable of price ratio, so it doesn't help at all.

[Wicked Pilot]

Those stats are bullshit, and even if the SSD had fewer guns total than her weight in ISDs, than still doesn't mean much sinse the firepower associated with each individual weapon could be greater than those on the ISD due to the SSDs greater volume to surface area ratio. In other words, the SSD may have less guns to do it's lower surface area compared to the ISDs, but sinse the power out put is the same, the guns are individually more powerful.

[The Original Nex]

Serapindal, buddy, those stats have been torn to pieces many times, don't just come in and post them like they're the answer to all our problems.