Iraqi Forces 'pathetic' say US Commanders

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Iraqi Forces 'pathetic' say US Commanders

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Officials Say Iraq's Forces Founder Under Rebel Assaults

By RICHARD A. OPPEL Jr. and JAMES GLANZ, The New York Times


MOSUL, Iraq, Nov. 29 - Iraqi police and national guard forces, whose performance is crucial to securing January elections, are foundering in the face of coordinated efforts to kill and intimidate them and their families, say American officials in the provinces facing the most violent insurgency.

For months, Iraqi recruits for both forces have been the victims of assassinations and car bombs aimed at lines of applicants as well as police stations. On Monday morning, a suicide bomber rammed a car into a group of police officers waiting to collect their salaries west of Ramadi, killing 12 people, Interior Ministry officials said.

While Bush administration officials say that the training is progressing and that there have been instances in which the Iraqis have proved tactically useful and fought bravely, local American commanders and security officials say both Iraqi forces are riddled with problems.

In the most violent provinces, they say, the Iraqis are so intimidated that many are reluctant to show up and do not tell their families where they work; they have yet to receive adequate training or weapons, present a danger to American troops they fight alongside, and are unreliable because of corruption, desertion or infiltration.

Given the weak performance of Iraqi forces, any major withdrawal of American troops for at least a decade would invite chaos, a senior Interior Ministry official, whose name could not be used, said in an interview last week.

South of Baghdad, where American troops are still trying to drive out insurgents after the recent offensive in Falluja, American officers warn their own troops to be prepared to "duck and cover" to avoid stray shots fired by Iraqi recruits.

In the northern city of Mosul, almost the entire police force and large parts of several Iraqi National Guard battalions deserted during an insurgent uprising this month. Iraqi leaders had to use Guard battalions of Kurdish soldiers to secure the city, kindling ethnic tensions with Arabs. Police stations in western Mosul have perhaps several hundred officers in an area that is supposed to have several thousand.

For those brave enough to come to work, "right now, all they're doing is looking out the window and making sure the bad guys aren't coming to get them," said an American military official in Mosul, who did not want his name to be used.

In a telephone interview on Saturday, Lt. Gen. David H. Petraeus, the American commander overseeing training of the Iraqi security forces, acknowledged the shortcomings in the Iraqis' performance, particularly by the police in Mosul and in Anbar Province, which stretches west from Ramadi to the Syrian border.

But General Petraeus said Iraqi Army, National Guard and police commando units had done well in other places, including Falluja, Najaf, Kut, Hilla, Karbala and much of southern Iraq, where the security situation was not as dangerous.

Iraqi security forces at all levels need better officers to lead the units, he said. "It's all about leadership," he said. "Where you see that, they really do well."

American military and Iraqi government officials, he added, are taking steps to address the weaknesses. Police training courses are being toughened to "focus much more on survival in a very lethal environment," he said. The police are also being provided larger weapons and more secure police stations.

In addition, there will be greater efforts to ensure that the Iraqi police will be backed up by other Iraqi security forces and American troops. "You can't have them feeling that if they're surrounded, no one's coming to the rescue," he said.

There are some bright spots among individual battalions of the Iraqi National Guard troops and Iraqi commandos. When operating under the direct control and oversight of American forces, some have helped in raids and other missions and continue to be used when American commanders want to enter mosques and other culturally sensitive targets, as happened in Falluja.

But places like Mosul are a particular worry for American commanders, who so far have been unable to slow the insurgents' campaign of intimidation. In the past 11 days, the bodies of at least 69 Iraqis have been found around Mosul, some with notes attached condemning their work for the Iraqi forces or with their military identification cards placed atop their bodies.

Even where there have been apparent successes, there are complications. American officials in Mosul, for example, single out the 106th Iraqi National Guard Battalion as performing with professionalism. But in an interview, the battalion commander said half of his troops were Kurdish, not Arab.

American commanders praised the Iraqi commandos who took part in a battle to repel insurgents who attacked a police station here two weeks ago. But an American company commander who joined the fight, Capt. Bill Jacobsen, noted that of a force of slightly more than 100 commandos, 10 had been killed and 27 wounded.

Many of the young Iraqi troops feel they are marked men, even without combat. To prevent insurgents from discovering their identities, many lie to everyone, wives and family included, about their real jobs.

In an interview, one member of the Iraqi 36th Commando Battalion, an elite group trained by the American Special Forces, says he tells his wife that he is a fireman, offering her nothing more to explain weeks-long absences. Another commando says he tells his family that his business requires frequent travel to the Syrian border. Some commandos, from the south, say they tell family members their factory foreman in Baghdad will not let them come home.

"I don't tell anyone," said the Iraqi commando who tells his wife he is a firefighter. "Just my brother, and he doesn't tell anyone because they will attack me."

He also complained about equipment shortages. "These weapons are not enough," he lamented. "They didn't give us a pistol. These Kalashnikovs are old and not good for shooting. If we attack, we must have good guns and good weapons. Tell the American government you must give us good weapons."

The Iraqi 36th Battalion worked with American Special Forces to take control of Falluja General Hospital on the first night of the invasion there, encountering no resistance. They often accompany American Special Forces soldiers on raids in Baghdad and other cities.

In October, the commando battalion helped United States troops storm a large mosque in Samarra, where 4 insurgents were killed and 25 captured. A Special Forces sergeant who helped lead the raid said some of the Iraqis "didn't jump in right away, but urged on by the more senior guys, they did."

In the "triangle of death," the area south of Baghdad named for its lawlessness, the police have been the targets of constant attacks and are now absent from the streets entirely, even though Marine bases in the area give police training courses.

John Chapman, a deputy sheriff in Johnson County, Tex., who was hired through the private security firm DynCorp to consult with the marines here, was asked what would count as a success for the recruits in the training program. "Show up for work," Mr. Chapman said. "Anything besides show up on payday."

At a training base in Mahmudiya, Mr. Chapman led a drill for about 40 recruits, many of whom drifted away into the shade for a smoke or giggled during a drill. Marines shouted at the recruits to pay attention. Mr. Chapman pestered them about their slovenly appearance, to little avail.

"To say we're there right now would be misspoken," said Maj. Dan Whisnant, intelligence officer for the Second Battalion, 24th Marine Regiment, which is involved in the training.

Marine officers here maintain that the police are improving. In the current military sweep, called Operation Plymouth Rock, an Iraqi SWAT team was given credit for a series of raids that rounded up numerous insurgent suspects.

But a different assessment was disclosed in a slide that one of those Marine officers presented at a daily briefing just as 150 new Iraqi police recruits were due to arrive by helicopter at an American base at 9 p.m., or in military parlance, 2100 hours:

"2100: Clown Car arrives," the slide said, referring to the helicopters. "2101: Be ready for negligent discharges," the entry continued, warning of accidental shots from the AK-47's carried by many of the recruits. "Recommend 'Duck & Cover,' " it concluded.

Lt. Col. Mark Smith, commanding officer of a Marine task force here, said the slide was a product of frustration among marines over the slow pace of training the police. "You just have to lower your expectations on the timetable on when they're going to get things done," he said.

There is still little police presence amid the devastation in post-invasion Falluja. Down the road, in Ramadi, an American commander said the police had proved useless. There, American troops with the First Battalion of the Army's 503d Infantry are briefed to be just as cautious in dealing with the Iraqi police as they are with anyone else.

The police "are clearly intimidated to the point where they don't want to come to work," said the battalion commander, Lt. Col. Justin Gubler.

He said the Iraqi National Guard, known as the I.N.G., has only a "little bit more training." They also have serious problems of loyalty and competence. Just a few months ago, he believes, the local National Guard force was complicit in the abduction and killing of its own battalion commander west of Falluja.

"That's what you get out of the I.N.G.," Colonel Gubler said. "They gave up their battalion commander, laid their weapons down, and 23 cars and trucks and massive amounts of ammunition went to Falluja. It's just pitiful."

Infiltration remains a problem. After the uprising, the Mosul police chief was quickly dismissed and was later arrested on suspicion of complicity with the insurgents.

When a captain in the Mosul police force, Abu Muhammad, was asked if the police had been penetrated by the mujahedeen, he took a long, deep breath.

"Yes, and this is the problem, and I do believe that they have contacts with senior policemen in Mosul," he said. "There is kind of cooperation between the two parties."

Richard A. Oppel Jr. reported from Mosul for this article and James Glanz from Baghdad. John F. Burns contributed reporting from Baghdad, and Eric Schmitt and an Iraqi employee of The New York Times also contributed.
You know the one thing I found rather telling in this article is that you have a bunch of guys being targetted directly by the insurgents with car bombs, threats, coordinated attacks, etc and US and Iraqi officials acting all 'shocked' that these guys are deserting and getting infiltrated. You dismissed the entirety of the army when you invaded then decided to build a police force and army from scratch and expect in a year's time for them to act like highly trained Western troops. I wonder how well NYPD officers would do if crack dealers began targetting them, blowing up car bombs oputside precincts and targetting their homes and families.

It's another fucking adminstration crack pipe dream to think that Iraqis will be anywhere near ready for self governance in this fucking decade. Let alone by January.

Given the weak performance of Iraqi forces, any major withdrawal of American troops for at least a decade would invite chaos, a senior Interior Ministry official, whose name could not be used, said in an interview last week.
Wow...I'm sure that's what was sold to us when this whole mess started, right along with Iraqi oil would be paying for the majority of this operation. UGH. What a Mess.
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Post by Enforcer Talen »

best laid plans, eh?
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Enforcer Talen wrote:best laid plans, eh?
If the best laid plans are oft gone agly, what about ones this shitty to begin with?
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Post by Darth Wong »

How would these macho soldiers feel if their wives and children were being directly targeted? It's pretty easy to insult Iraqis for being afraid of retaliation when your own family is thousands of miles away from the hot zone and is only being "targeted" in a very general, ie- non-specific sense. How would our chest-thumping GI Joe feel if Osama Bin-Laden held up a picture of his wife and kids in his next videotape and said "get 'em"? Would he still be so macho? So confident? So brave? Or would a little fear creep into his heart?
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Post by Durandal »

What a shocker. What do Iraqi police officers and soldiers have to look forward to? A potentially short career of fighting their countrymen while putting their family directly in harm's way? What an attractive incentive package.
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Post by frigidmagi »

Mike, most of our troops already believe our families to be at risk for what we do. It's aburd to believe that our families are at anywhere near the same level of risk that Iraqis families of police and solders are at I'll agree.
Iraqi security forces at all levels need better officers to lead the units, he said. "It's all about leadership," he said. "Where you see that, they really do well."
This doesn't bode well, it's more about security than leadership I think. We have to prove we can protect their families, not that we can lead them to victory. They already know US forces and kick the shit outta anything in a straight fight.
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Post by Stormbringer »

frigidmagi wrote:Mike, most of our troops already believe our families to be at risk for what we do. It's aburd to believe that our families are at anywhere near the same level of risk that Iraqis families of police and solders are at I'll agree.
And it's absurd to believe that basic, nebulous threat is anywhere near that of the Iraqi forces. Most US families are far removed from the fighting; Iraqi forces families are in easy reach of the terrorists.
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Post by frigidmagi »

Didn't I just say that, Stormy?
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Post by Stormbringer »

frigidmagi wrote:Didn't I just say that, Stormy?
Yes, but it seems to me anyway, that you're saying the difference in threat makes no difference.
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Post by frigidmagi »

No, it makes a world of difference, which is why the burden of proof is on us to prove we can protect them and their families. No one can be expected to happily line up his children and spouse for the chopping block for a lousy thankless job.

We want them out on the street, so it's on us to do something to achieve that.
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Post by Howedar »

That said, I'm not clear on how attendance has any effect on danger to family. Unless you're attacked by insurgents who personally know you and therefore know who your family is, I don't see why actually showing up will put anyone but you in any extra danger.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Howedar wrote:That said, I'm not clear on how attendance has any effect on danger to family. Unless you're attacked by insurgents who personally know you and therefore know who your family is, I don't see why actually showing up will put anyone but you in any extra danger.
The names of police officers aren't hard to find. Even in this society, it would be fairly easy to target police officers' families if someone wanted to do that. The reason it doesn't happen too often is that our society is fairly well-controlled, unlike the chaos that is Iraq.

Besides, there are informers everywhere in Iraq, including moles in the police forces and the army.
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Post by Howedar »

Forgive me, I wasn't clear. If you've taken the risk to sign up in the first place (and these troops obviously have), I don't see the additional risk in showing up to work. Your name is on the records regardless. Perhaps informers would then look up your family instead of someone else, but I'd think they'd try to strike at anyone (since therefore you won't be safe in the armed forces regardless).

There's a strong possibility I don't think like an Iraqi insurgent, though.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Howedar wrote:Forgive me, I wasn't clear. If you've taken the risk to sign up in the first place (and these troops obviously have), I don't see the additional risk in showing up to work. Your name is on the records regardless. Perhaps informers would then look up your family instead of someone else, but I'd think they'd try to strike at anyone (since therefore you won't be safe in the armed forces regardless).

There's a strong possibility I don't think like an Iraqi insurgent, though.
Keep in mind that a lot of these guys are probably unemployed; it's not as if Iraq has a thriving economy. And there could be rumours spreading throughout the force that it's understandable to sign up for money, but not to actually take arms against fellow Muslims. That would explain the "sign up but shirk your duty" practices we're seeing (and who could blame them?)
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Post by Howedar »

That's a fair conclusion. May or may not be right, but it makes sense.
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Post by HemlockGrey »

The purpose of the militia is not to fight. It's purpose is to filter out heterodox, disloyal, and subverisive elements. This was true in China, in was true in India, it was true in the Old West, it was true in the Phillipines, and it remains true to day. But after they disbanded the Iraqi army and then threw a hastily reconstituted militia against guerrilla fighters...well, what the fuck did they expect? The whole thing was a cockup from the beginning.
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Post by GrandMasterTerwynn »

HemlockGrey wrote:The purpose of the militia is not to fight. It's purpose is to filter out heterodox, disloyal, and subverisive elements. This was true in China, in was true in India, it was true in the Old West, it was true in the Phillipines, and it remains true to day. But after they disbanded the Iraqi army and then threw a hastily reconstituted militia against guerrilla fighters...well, what the fuck did they expect? The whole thing was a cockup from the beginning.
Yes, not to mention almost all of the Iraqi officer corps and every soldier recruited used to live under a regime where an excess of military competence and independent thought tended to be rewarded with disappearing from one's home at night and waking up dead the next morning. It will probably take at least a decade for the proud Hussein-instilled Iraqi tradition of military incompetence to fade to the point where the Iraqis can field anything resembling a proper army without requiring lots of careful supervision.
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Post by MKSheppard »

HemlockGrey wrote:The purpose of the militia is not to fight. It's purpose is to filter out heterodox, disloyal, and subverisive elements. This was true in China, in was true in India, it was true in the Old West, it was true in the Phillipines, and it remains true to day.
Actually, false. The milita in the old west fought, because there were people
who wanted to kill you all; namely the Indians. Meanwhile, the milita
at Bladensburg, et al in the war of 1812 helped offer a speedbump
to the British forces alllowing the President to escape Washington in
time.

Militas are also enumerated in the US Constitution Milita
as civilian reserves for the armed forces "Congress shall have power to provide for calling forth the militia", etc.
The whole thing was a cockup from the beginning.
Do I need to remind you of the dismisal performance of the US Army at Kasserine Pass in 1942?

It takes time to create an effective fighting force, and signs are beginning to show that
an Iraqi NCO corps is forming.
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Post by MKSheppard »

And to be brutally frank, trying to create an effective fighting force
out of Arabs is a hard thankless task. I'm glad I'm not those guys
training them. I'd much rather be working as a consultant in France,
trying to motivate the french to fight. :D
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Post by Darth Wong »

MKSheppard wrote:I'd much rather be working as a consultant in France, trying to motivate the french to fight. :D
If we rename them back to the Gauls, would people take them more seriously again?
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Post by MKSheppard »

Darth Wong wrote:If we rename them back to the Gauls, would people take them more seriously again?
Hmm no, the Gauls get phowned by the Romans in RTW
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Post by HemlockGrey »

Actually, false. The milita in the old west fought, because there were people who wanted to kill you all; namely the Indians. Meanwhile, the milita at Bladensburg, et al in the war of 1812 helped offer a speedbump to the British forces alllowing the President to escape Washington in time.
I ought to have been clearer. By "militia" in that context I refer to militia comprised of indigenous peoples organized by a foreign or imperial overlord. In the Old West (and in Florida as well) I am referring to Indian scouts, guides, and trackers, who, while they did aid in warfare to a greater extant than the militias in the other examples I gave, more importantly did not fight against white settlers or join up with Indian warleaders.
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Post by frigidmagi »

I ought to have been clearer. By "militia" in that context I refer to militia comprised of indigenous peoples organized by a foreign or imperial overlord. In the Old West (and in Florida as well) I am referring to Indian scouts, guides, and trackers, who, while they did aid in warfare to a greater extant than the militias in the other examples I gave, more importantly did not fight against white settlers or join up with Indian warleaders.
The Cherokee in Floridia fought quite well for Jackson thank you. Certain units even bore the greater part of the cost in several battles. One of them even saved his life and why not? The 5 tribes had adopted European dress, traditions, arts and regilion. The Cherokee even created a written language.

Not that that stopped Jackson from stabbing us in the back... Bastard.
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Post by HemlockGrey »

The Cherokee in Floridia fought quite well for Jackson thank you. Certain units even bore the greater part of the cost in several battles. One of them even saved his life and why not? The 5 tribes had adopted European dress, traditions, arts and regilion. The Cherokee even created a written language.
Obviously that wasn't supposed to be a catch-all statement, my point was that in the history of imperialism (and make no mistake, Iraq is imperialism, if only a softer version), the purpose of the indigenous militia has not been chiefly to "fight the enemy".
Not that that stopped Jackson from stabbing us in the back... Bastard.
He was a son of a bitch, no doubt about that.
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Post by frigidmagi »

Thing is in Flordia the 5 civilized tribes provided the indain units, who did fight and had the high causality rate to prove it. I might grant you the Indains in the west, but tribal hatreds ran high over there at times. Crows often being happy to murder Souix for Uncle Sam and vis versa.

Has for India, Muslem units could be counted on to destroy Hindu rebels and Hindu units to kill musliums. Of course they did at times make common cause has several mutinies showed.

Militia in imperialism are often an example of playing local hatreds against each other.
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