The ID Card Bill Has Come

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2004-11-30 09:00am

How about ID chip implants? Those could be specifically coded (only one code per chip, so a duplicate somewhere would set off alarm bells), and they'd be harder to lose or steal. Set it up like a store or airport scanner -- you walk through, and your ID is known. Heck, could see the Army making something like that madatory, since we already have "smart" ID cards with chips

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-11-30 10:23am

HemlockGrey wrote:20 seconds on Google yields a plethora of websites which specialize in forging IDs, many of them located in the UK. Let's hope this national ID can overcome such problems.

Doesn't that only prove the point that the lack of a national ID is hardly preventing it, so it can't really make it any worse? And seriously, anyone who thinks that the existing system limits problems should try fixing a bad credit report sometime.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-11-30 12:29pm

I already have a state ID. I don't see what the big deal is to get a national one.

Thunderfire · Post by **Thunderfire** » 2004-11-30 04:21pm

Darth Wong wrote: Good thing the southwestern US doesn't have these ID cards, or they would have an illegal immmigrant problem ... wait a minute ...

A ID Cards turns an illegal immigrant into a legal citizen. ID Cards can be a security problem if people trust them to much.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2004-11-30 05:15pm

Thunderfire wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: Good thing the southwestern US doesn't have these ID cards, or they would have an illegal immmigrant problem ... wait a minute ...
A ID Cards turns an illegal immigrant into a legal citizen. ID Cards can be a security problem if people trust them to much.

What are you smoking?

An ID card turns an illegal immigrant into an illegal immigrant with a fake ID.

If you'd been paying attention to this aswell, it'll be 10 years jail time for anyone caught messing with the register or creating fake ID's and posessing a fake ID will carry the same time...that means you'd need a very desperate corrupt civil servant that was very sure of their success and very high up to pull this off....and of course a fuckload of money.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-12-01 02:24am

Doesn't that only prove the point that the lack of a national ID is hardly preventing it, so it can't really make it any worse? And seriously, anyone who thinks that the existing system limits problems should try fixing a bad credit report sometime.

Well, the false IDs these sites specialize in aren't really identity theft; it's more like fake driver's licenses and stuff. I'm just saying that I hope the national ID has some serious fucking safeguards to stop them from being manufactored in someone's garage.

Pcm979 · Post by **Pcm979** » 2004-12-01 02:32am

As someone who currently lives in a place with ID cards and is soon moving to the UK, I don't have a problem with it.

Hokalus · Post by **Hokalus** » 2004-12-01 07:54am

I don't really have a problem with the card as such... I do however disagree with having to pay for something which I seriously doubt will make any real difference. The data protection implications are of some concern, but as AV has said government agencies know practically everything about you anyway.

As for the IT core of the ID card scheme, I’ll believe it when it comes in on time, on budget, and IF it actually works. After the fiasco at the DWP last week, one of many UK Gov. IT fuckups, I don't have high hopes that this will happen.

Plekhanov · Post by **Plekhanov** » 2004-12-01 10:28am

I’m very much against ID cards in Britain for a number of reasons:

1. The cost, the government currently thinks this scheme will cost about £3 billion, I fully expect this to be hopelessly optimistic like most British Gov ID projects.

3 billion is a hell of a lot of money, many of posters in the thread effectively seem to have effectively shrugged their shoulders and “said might as well then, I don’t really have a problem” if we are going to spend 3 billion of taxpayers (ie our) money on something we need to have a damn good reason why

2. Civil liberties implications, this is yet another step in the rise of a surveillance state in Britain, the government is already mooting making cards compulsory and I have no doubt they will be within a decade or so if introduced. They will also be an additional hassle to everyday life even when the police aren’t asking to look at them, loosing them will mess you around big time if all government services are rationed through them and a replacement will be very expensive. Just think how many times you lost your credit card now just imagine you had to pay £35 every time to replace it because that’s how much ID cards are projected to cost.

3. Will they even work at all? Numerous ambitious gov IT projects haven’t in the past and none were anything like as extraordinarily ambitious this one.

4. Why do we need them, what purpose will they serve? Anyone introducing such an invasive and expensive scheme had better have some damn reasons why backed up with good hard data, the government simply hasn’t made the case.

Ministers talk about cards aiding the fight against terrorism (Blunkett opportunistically just happened to relaunch ID cards in the aftermath of the bombing of the trains in Spain) without explaining how they will do this. As I’m sure you know the 9/11 guys had valid ID, Spain has ID cards, in these cases we knew exactly who the perpetrators were the problem was that we didn’t know they were terroists.

They talk of ID cards stopping fraud but can’t specify the ways exactly which kinds of fraud, and how much this is supposed to save. They attempt to give the impression that ID cards will be some kind of a cure all for fraud despite that fact that a very large proportion of fraud is committed through misrepresenting your circumstances and through corrupt companies ID cards will do nothing to effect this.

For example I was in an informal debate with a low ranking home office minister (Caroline Flint MP) last Friday and amongst other things she cited the problem of people stealing the details of your cash card on rigged cash machines and then emptying your account, the only problem with that argument is that ID cards will do absolutely nothing to stop this crime. She then cited the example of Denmark where ID cards are often used when making purchases as some kind of a positive example of how ID cards combat fraud. However when challenged she had absolutely no data to show the relative levels of fraud between Denmark and the UK. She said that they’d help stop illegal immigration, gang masters and so forth (ie cockle pickers) oblivious to the fact that seeing as illegal already work in the unregulated black economy for people who know they’re illegals ID cards will do fuck all to address this problem.

So basically I’m against ID Cards because they are very expensive, they further erode our civil liberties, there’s a good chance they won’t even work and above all else because no ones ever actually set out the problems they will solve.

Thunderfire · Post by **Thunderfire** » 2004-12-01 11:00am

Keevan_Colton wrote:
What are you smoking?

An ID card turns an illegal immigrant into an illegal immigrant with a fake ID.

If you'd been paying attention to this aswell, it'll be 10 years jail time for anyone caught messing with the register or creating fake ID's and posessing a fake ID will carry the same time...

Well it is 10 years(max) jail time in germany too and it still happend. How are you going to distinguish a legal from a fake ID - if the process to make them is the same?

Prozac the Robert · Post by **Prozac the Robert** » 2004-12-01 11:12am

As to fraudulent ID cards:
Firstly you would need to scan in your biometric details, expensive but do-able.

Then you have to sneak into a government building and add your fake details to the database. If you didn't bother with this step it would be a bit like making a fake credit card out of plastic and expecting it to work.

I do have concerns as to exactly what the cards are for though.

I suspect that the government are hoping that they will save more money from health tourists, people trying to claim benefits more than once etc. than they spend on the cards. (Meaning that the cost of the cards themselves, £35, would be a sort of new tax.)

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2004-12-01 11:13am

Thunderfire wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:
What are you smoking?

An ID card turns an illegal immigrant into an illegal immigrant with a fake ID.

If you'd been paying attention to this aswell, it'll be 10 years jail time for anyone caught messing with the register or creating fake ID's and posessing a fake ID will carry the same time...
Well it is 10 years(max) jail time in germany too and it still happend. How are you going to distinguish a legal from a fake ID - if the process to make them is the same?

By using a process people will have difficulty replicating.
Is there some huge problem with counterfit money that is totally indistingishable from real money that I've been missing for example....?

Thunderfire · Post by **Thunderfire** » 2004-12-01 11:39am

Keevan_Colton wrote: By using a process people will have difficulty replicating.

You miss my point the people who make the real ID cards are involved in the crime.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2004-12-01 12:45pm

Thunderfire wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote: By using a process people will have difficulty replicating.
You miss my point the people who make the real ID cards are involved in the crime.

Says you...

You have independent people to watch over them to guard against that.

Do we have people running off a couple of extra batches of £20 notes on the presses when they're about to head off for lunch?

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The ID Card Bill Has Come

ID cards: Yay or Nay?