Bush's Abstinence-Only Sex Ed Program Full of Baldface Lies.

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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Ooo you are DARK. I bet you LARP Vampire: the Masquerade too.
My role playing habits have no relevance in this argument
teaching about safe sex methods as well is probably better
That it would
At the same time, I don't think Bush is effectively giving kids AIDS.
His policies are. Therefore he is responsible in part.

<snip>

Or it could be that those in the lower income brackets cant generally afford contraceptives :)

It isnt cultural, it is economic in these cases. But f you control other variables, then letting the teens know what options are open to them as far as contraceptives go is preferable to other methods
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Post by Batman »

Uther wrote: Anyway the point is, abstinence only education might work.
Despite countless years of evidence to the contrary. Oh sure.
But a mixed approach, teaching about safe sex methods as well is probably better. At the same time, I don't think Bush is effectively giving kids AIDS.
Then you're ignorant. Not that that surprises me.
All that said, of course, what it comes down to is that this whole sex ed thing is something of a red herring.
Translation:I've talked myself into a corner I can't get out of so let's pretend it doesn't really matter.
How pray tell can sex ed be a red herring in a debate about sex ed?
I REALLY would like to hear your reasoning.
Economic status, social class, attitudes towards familial responsibility and higher education, what's culturally acceptable and what's not, these things are of far greater importance.
Which is relevant to the fact that proper sex ed reduces unwanted pregnancies and STDs how exactly?
I'd like to leave you all with an anecdote that I think illustrates this issue rather nicely.
Oh yes. Anecdotal evidence. We all know how extremely valuable that is.
I went to a public high school that had a nearly even split between hispanic kids and then the white/asian kids. Now, the hispanic kids were mostly first and second generation, they lived in a different part of the city, they spoke both spanish and english, I imagine they were generally in lower economic brackets, and they certainly weren't in any of my AP classes. Now, there were other hispanics who were in accelerated classes, but these were kids whose families had been here a while, were upper middle class etc. The point is, both the upper middle class (UPC) kids like me and the hispanic kids all had to go through the same rigamarole state mandated Health class, which of course included sex ed. Now, my memory is pretty fuzzy but the class mostly emphasized scary STDs and that "absitenence is the only 100% effective method!" but we also learned about condoms and stuff. What's my point? Well, I know of several hispanic girls who got pregnant over the course of the 4 years, and not a single UPC girl did. Granted, this is merely an anecdote, but we had the same sex ed! With different results. Why? Because of what's culutrally acceptable and what's not, and what's expected or OK and what's not, and because all these pretty little UPC girls were going to college, and a lot of the pretty little hispanic girls weren't. That's what it comes down to.
Uh huh. Let me get this straight: there will be differences in the approach to sex depending on social factors anyway so let's not bother with proper sex ed since that wouldn't affect those social differences.
You realise that makes no sense, does it?
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Post by Jalinth »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Here ya go numbnuts

Teen birth rates, you will not it corresponds to the sex ed policy of the vrious states.

and this
Does any site go into the state by state policies? The trend is interesting. Heavily geographic - the southern states have higher rates than northern - note California is also part of this trend. The lowest are the New England and the North Dakota, WI, etc... (does this area have a name?). Interesting that the four northern states near Michigan are a real mixed bag politically - split between Kerry and Bush. Not sure what the common theme for these states are.

It is interesting that every single state with the highest rates voted for Bush -most (with the exceptions of NM and NV) heavily. So obviously values don't transfer to youth that well.
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Post by Uther »

Translation:I've talked myself into a corner I can't get out of so let's pretend it doesn't really matter.
How pray tell can sex ed be a red herring in a debate about sex ed?
I REALLY would like to hear your reasoning.
Oh please. I'm arguing the type of sex ed probably doesn't matter very much, and other factors are of much greater importance. But this godawful debating style of quoting individual sentences and then responding to them with pithy little comments is awesome so let's keep doing it.
Uh huh. Let me get this straight: there will be differences in the approach to sex depending on social factors anyway so let's not bother with proper sex ed since that wouldn't affect those social differences.
You realise that makes no sense, does it?
Did I say that pooper scooper? Did I say that sex ed doesn't have any effect at all? I specifically stated that a mixed approach is probably best. It might have some effect on pregnancy rates. It wouldn't hurt, and it's worth doing. But it's not going to come close to solving the problem. There are bigger issues that need to be addressed here.
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Post by frigidmagi »

Actually, it's somewhat common people to marry young here. I note the graph doesn't seem to factor in wheter or not the lady in question is married?

The fact that alot of kids get married also factors into our high divorce rate has well has you can guess.

I am not suggesting that Abstinence is working all that great. There is still a high rate of unwedd pregency and STDs, that could be prevented with wider degree sex education.

The fact of life is that the majority of people are going to screw like rabbits no matter how you feel about it, it's better to just deal with that fact and limit the damage(again speaking about STDs okay?) it can do.

Has an aside note, Birth Control does not promote promiscuity, puberty does.
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Post by Jalinth »

frigidmagi wrote:Has an aside note, Birth Control does not promote promiscuity, puberty does.
I have to remember that line - excellent. Cuts to the heart of the matter.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Joe wrote:Um, I'm sympathetic, but it doesn't work that way. You have to back up your claim with numbers first, then you can demand that the other guy disproves it.
There's ample statistical data, particularly in Louisiana and Texas - both mandating abstinence only education - showing a strong correlation between high rates of STD infection and teen pregnancy with abstinence education. Several studies have even directly negatively linked condom usage with abstinence education.

People have sex regardless. People told condoms aren't useful aren't going to subject themselves to them, have sex anyway, and get pregnant and get STDs more than the kids who are using them (because they were taught). Some of those kids are going to be acquiring HIV, and are going to die. QED.
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Post by frigidmagi »

I have to remember that line - excellent. Cuts to the heart of the matter.
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Post by jcow79 »

Perhaps we should just stick with the kindergarten policy of sex education. Just tell each sex that the other has cooties. Kindergarten pregnancy rates are extremely low which means it's working!! :D
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Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

jcow79 wrote:Perhaps we should just stick with the kindergarten policy of sex education. Just tell each sex that the other has cooties. Kindergarten pregnancy rates are extremely low which means it's working!! :D
LOL!!!!~!!!1

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Post by Darth Wong »

Uther wrote:I thought the kind of working assumption of this message board was that people are generally pretty stupid?
They are. Attitudes like yours don't help. Only in Idiot-Land can someone seriously believe that ignorance can be fought by spreading misinformation in the hopes of synergistic interaction between one misconception and another.
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Post by Uther »

Destructionator XIII wrote:What, pray tell, specifically are the bigger issues you keep referring to, Uther?
Poverty, class expectations, cultural norms (culture is the sense of trailer park culture, ghetto culture), stuff like that.
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Post by egyptfrk »

Uther wrote:
Destructionator XIII wrote:What, pray tell, specifically are the bigger issues you keep referring to, Uther?
Poverty, class expectations, cultural norms (culture is the sense of trailer park culture, ghetto culture), stuff like that.
"babies having babies" -phenomena common to lower socio-economic areas

Yes, kids raised in low socio-economic areas (ie ghettos, projects, etc) clearly have fewer resources. Many of these kids were also accidents themselves because their parents didn't get the truth about sex from school or anyone else. So why wouldn't an all-encompasing sex ed class in school help prevent that? Obviously there aren't going to be too many people in their neighborhood who could or will give them a truthful and realistic sexual education.
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Post by Uther »

Mrs. CmdrWilkens wrote:
Uther wrote:
Destructionator XIII wrote:What, pray tell, specifically are the bigger issues you keep referring to, Uther?
Poverty, class expectations, cultural norms (culture is the sense of trailer park culture, ghetto culture), stuff like that.
"babies having babies" -phenomena common to lower socio-economic areas

Yes, kids raised in low socio-economic areas (ie ghettos, projects, etc) clearly have fewer resources. Many of these kids were also accidents themselves because their parents didn't get the truth about sex from school or anyone else. So why wouldn't an all-encompasing sex ed class in school help prevent that? Obviously there aren't going to be too many people in their neighborhood who could or will give them a truthful and realistic sexual education.
Because sex education is likely to be about as effective as every other kind of education those kids are getting: not at all.
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Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

Uther wrote:Because sex education is likely to be about as effective as every other kind of education those kids are getting: not at all.
And WHY is is so ineffective, pray tell?
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Post by egyptfrk »

Uther wrote:
Mrs. CmdrWilkens wrote:
Uther wrote: Poverty, class expectations, cultural norms (culture is the sense of trailer park culture, ghetto culture), stuff like that.
"babies having babies" -phenomena common to lower socio-economic areas

Yes, kids raised in low socio-economic areas (ie ghettos, projects, etc) clearly have fewer resources. Many of these kids were also accidents themselves because their parents didn't get the truth about sex from school or anyone else. So why wouldn't an all-encompasing sex ed class in school help prevent that? Obviously there aren't going to be too many people in their neighborhood who could or will give them a truthful and realistic sexual education.
Because sex education is likely to be about as effective as every other kind of education those kids are getting: not at all.
So are you saying then that schools should just stop trying to teach these kids altogether? Chalk them up as a lost cause? sounds like an excuse...

If we know kids in this situation are at a disadvantage, why not specifically target them with programs outside of schools even, to help get the message across. Not to mention most of this stuff happens after school is done for the day and before dinner time (when their parent(s) get home). If they actually had something other to do/somewhere else to go it just might help too....hmmm....but then, they're already a lost cause, so why bother, right?
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Post by Marksist »

Because sex education is likely to be about as effective as every other kind of education those kids are getting: not at all.
So we should just give up? Stop trying, eh? Tell the teachers and students to pack their bags and go home?
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Post by Uther »

Mrs. CmdrWilkens wrote:
Uther wrote:
Mrs. CmdrWilkens wrote: "babies having babies" -phenomena common to lower socio-economic areas

Yes, kids raised in low socio-economic areas (ie ghettos, projects, etc) clearly have fewer resources. Many of these kids were also accidents themselves because their parents didn't get the truth about sex from school or anyone else. So why wouldn't an all-encompasing sex ed class in school help prevent that? Obviously there aren't going to be too many people in their neighborhood who could or will give them a truthful and realistic sexual education.
Because sex education is likely to be about as effective as every other kind of education those kids are getting: not at all.
So are you saying then that schools should just stop trying to teach these kids altogether? Chalk them up as a lost cause? sounds like an excuse...

If we know kids in this situation are at a disadvantage, why not specifically target them with programs outside of schools even, to help get the message across. Not to mention most of this stuff happens after school is done for the day and before dinner time (when their parent(s) get home). If they actually had something other to do/somewhere else to go it just might help too....hmmm....but then, they're already a lost cause, so why bother, right?
I know it's nice to talk about after school programs where we empower all the kids with a full knowledge of how their bodies work and how bad it would be for them to have unprotected sex and all that jazz. And it's not necessarily a bad idea. But you have to accept the norms of what you're dealing with: most of these kids are born into single parent households. A huge percentage of them don't know their own fathers. Their experience with the public education system sucks, they don't have a lot of money, no one really expects them to go to college and they don't expect to either. A whole sub culture glorifies being a "gangsta" and abhors "acting white," which is usually associated with academic success; it objectifies women. Kids having kids happens all the time, and it's not looked on as an aberration. In the face of all of this, you think a sex ed program, even a well designed and comprehensive one, is going to have an appreciable impact? Think again.

I'm not advocating giving up, but I don't think this is the way to go about dealing with the problem.
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Post by egyptfrk »

Uther wrote: I know it's nice to talk about after school programs where we empower all the kids with a full knowledge of how their bodies work and how bad it would be for them to have unprotected sex and all that jazz. And it's not necessarily a bad idea. But you have to accept the norms of what you're dealing with: most of these kids are born into single parent households. A huge percentage of them don't know their own fathers. Their experience with the public education system sucks, they don't have a lot of money, no one really expects them to go to college and they don't expect to either. A whole sub culture glorifies being a "gangsta" and abhors "acting white," which is usually associated with academic success; it objectifies women. Kids having kids happens all the time, and it's not looked on as an aberration. In the face of all of this, you think a sex ed program, even a well designed and comprehensive one, is going to have an appreciable impact? Think again.

I'm not advocating giving up, but I don't think this is the way to go about dealing with the problem.
I never said an afterschool program would/should solely focus on sex ed, nor do I believe it would change everything over night.

What then, would help? hmmm....
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Post by pellaeons_scion »

Uther wrote:
<snip>
Isnt this a bit of a generalisation? I mean, where are the numbers to prove this statement? Also, how can you be so sure that a well structured sex ed system wouldnt benefit those kids? Maybe there should stop being such a puritanical attitiude towards sex, and maybe you might be able to have kids that are well educated and understand what awaits them, rather than living on the knowledge gained from the schoolyard. Kids are going to have sex, you cannot stop it. Better to have them educated about it than living in the dark.
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Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

Marksist wrote:
Because sex education is likely to be about as effective as every other kind of education those kids are getting: not at all.
So we should just give up? Stop trying, eh? Tell the teachers and students to pack their bags and go home?
I think that's what he's saying. After all, uneducated kids>>higher birthrate>>more potential conscripts for the Oil Wars. :roll:
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Post by frigidmagi »

I think that's what he's saying. After all, uneducated kids>>higher birthrate>>more potential conscripts for the Oil Wars
Actually the mordern solder has to be educated in order to properly maintain, deploy and use his ever more complex tools and tactics. Undereducated conscripts that will have to taught everything from the ground up are worst than worthless, they're a gaping hole devouring resources that the military just doesn't have to spare if it's going to sucessfully fight constant, low insenstity, wars.
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Post by Uther »

Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:
Marksist wrote:
Because sex education is likely to be about as effective as every other kind of education those kids are getting: not at all.
So we should just give up? Stop trying, eh? Tell the teachers and students to pack their bags and go home?
I think that's what he's saying. After all, uneducated kids>>higher birthrate>>more potential conscripts for the Oil Wars. :roll:
I'm not advocating giving up, but I don't think this is the way to go about dealing with the problem.
No.
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Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

frigidmagi wrote:
I think that's what he's saying. After all, uneducated kids>>higher birthrate>>more potential conscripts for the Oil Wars
Actually the mordern solder has to be educated in order to properly maintain, deploy and use his ever more complex tools and tactics. Undereducated conscripts that will have to taught everything from the ground up are worst than worthless, they're a gaping hole devouring resources that the military just doesn't have to spare if it's going to sucessfully fight constant, low insenstity, wars.
Good point. Some people don't see it your way tho...
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Post by frigidmagi »

Good point. Some people don't see it your way tho...
Those being the same jackasses who never fought in a mordern war, never bothered to study the reports and studies of said wars, but feel perfectly able and ready to decide what the mordern military needs and should do?
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