Emporer Palpatine was a good guy:

[Enforcer Talen]

just cuz your paranoid doesnt mean there arent really massive alien hordes out to get you. . .

[Solauren]

True, but that was not there intent.
They were created at the suggestion of Grand Moff Tarkin 20 years after the Emperoer seized power. They were part of the Tarkin Docutrine of 'Rule through Fear of Force rather then Force itself'. The Death Star could scare any world into line.

AOTC would cast this in to doubt. Has Palpy even noticed tarkin as of AotC, yet he's still Designing Death Stars.

Ah, but Rogue Planet destroys that

in Rogue Planet, Tarkin is friends with the man that came up with the original idea of Tie Fighters and a moon-sized space station called the 'Expeditionary Battle Planetoid'

At the end of the novel, to save his own butt, Tarkin gives them to Palpatine

[JME2]

True, but that was not there intent.
They were created at the suggestion of Grand Moff Tarkin 20 years after the Emperoer seized power. They were part of the Tarkin Docutrine of 'Rule through Fear of Force rather then Force itself'. The Death Star could scare any world into line.

AOTC would cast this in to doubt. Has Palpy even noticed tarkin as of AotC, yet he's still Designing Death Stars.

Ah, but Rogue Planet destroys that

in Rogue Planet, Tarkin is friends with the man that came up with the original idea of Tie Fighters and a moon-sized space station called the 'Expeditionary Battle Planetoid'

At the end of the novel, to save his own butt, Tarkin gives them to Palpatine

Eh, a lot of the EU is no longer valid thanks to the PT (Black Fleet Trilogy, Darksaber), but I'm fine with it; continuity and consistency are hard to pull off in any medium. Should be interesting, though, how the revamped Essential Chronology is done with all of these contradictions (and even better if KJA is writing it ).

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Eh, a lot of the EU is no longer valid thanks to the PT (Black Fleet Trilogy, Darksaber), but I'm fine with it; continuity and consistency are hard to pull off in any medium. Should be interesting, though, how the revamped Essential Chronology is done with all of these contradictions (and even better if KJA is writing it ).

Huh? I know parts of Darksaber involving Lemelisk and exactly how he designed the Death Star may be affected, but how did the PT affect the Black Fleet Trilogy?

[Ghost Rider]

Eh, a lot of the EU is no longer valid thanks to the PT (Black Fleet Trilogy, Darksaber), but I'm fine with it; continuity and consistency are hard to pull off in any medium. Should be interesting, though, how the revamped Essential Chronology is done with all of these contradictions (and even better if KJA is writing it ).

Huh? I know parts of Darksaber involving Lemelisk and exactly how he designed the Death Star may be affected, but how did the PT affect the Black Fleet Trilogy?

Likely Coruscant and the descriptions of the planet.

[JME2]

Eh, a lot of the EU is no longer valid thanks to the PT (Black Fleet Trilogy, Darksaber), but I'm fine with it; continuity and consistency are hard to pull off in any medium. Should be interesting, though, how the revamped Essential Chronology is done with all of these contradictions (and even better if KJA is writing it ).

Huh? I know parts of Darksaber involving Lemelisk and exactly how he designed the Death Star may be affected, but how did the PT affect the Black Fleet Trilogy?

Likely Coruscant and the descriptions of the planet.

Also that Luke was searching for his mother, who he believed may have been alive -- though I admit now, with Tatooine Ghost, that may work better.

[Tychu]

The Outbound Flight project failed due to disruptions at the edge of the galaxy... however if Palpatine knew why they were stopped (the Vong smacked em ) then he knew they were coming and had time to prepare.

Its pretty much been confirmed that Palpatine destroyed the OutBound Flight Project because there were Jedi aboard.

Like i said in a similar post and many already said, Theres no proof that Palpatine knew of the Vong comming. There was a 25 year gap between his death and the Vong, and many more evil anarchists in the galaxy that he might also have been building up a fleet for.

[UCBooties]

As cool as it would be for Palpy to have pulled a Treiz style make-myself-the-badguy-in-order-to-do-what-will-save-the-world move, it just doesn't scan with all of his shown actions and motivations. Palpatine's actions led to a system arguably worse able to deal with the Vong threat than the OR. If he had the forsight to know the Vong were coming, he should have know that by the time they got there in earnest, he would be gone, the galazy would be splintered as a result of his own actions and the effects of the war against him, and his power structure would be demolished. Palpy may have known the Vong were coming, but he certainly didn't seize power in an altruistic move to make the Galaxy a safer place. If he did increase the military in response to an impending Vong threat, it would be to ensure the survival of his own reign, not the protection of the Galaxy. Palpatine was a heinous and corrupt evil wizard clinging to power and slipping further and further into delightfuly Hitler-esque paranoid psychosis as his power was splintered and his support base was corrupted by his tightfisted and wastful rule. Fun idea, but not one which can be supported outside the realm of the what-if.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Palpatine's actions led to a system arguably worse able to deal with the Vong threat than the OR.

The OR at its peak? Maybe. The OR during the days in which he was in power, who cannot even effectively challenge the Trade Federation's blockade with military force? I doubt it. (Note that I'm comparing its performance with the Empire in this scenario, not the NR. Even with the OR Splintered Galaxy, it would have done better than the NJO NR)

If he had the forsight to know the Vong were coming, he should have know that by the time they got there in earnest, he would be gone, the galazy would be splintered as a result of his own actions and the effects of the war against him, and his power structure would be demolished.

While I don't really buy into this theory (and I'm an Imperial Apologist by this board's spectra), I must point out how improper it is to assume that his precognition would be perfect, rather than him just getting some glimpses which he acts on. He was mostly meticulous. By all rights he should have succeeded even through his (admittedly arrogant) mistakes and showoffs.

Palpy may have known the Vong were coming, but he certainly didn't seize power in an altruistic move to make the Galaxy a safer place. If he did increase the military in response to an impending Vong threat, it would be to ensure the survival of his own reign, not the protection of the Galaxy. Palpatine was a heinous and corrupt evil wizard clinging to power and slipping further and further into delightfuly Hitler-esque paranoid psychosis as his power was splintered and his support base was corrupted by his tightfisted and wastful rule. Fun idea, but not one which can be supported outside the realm of the what-if.

I'd mostly agree. If he had good intentions to start with, they were increasingly washed out as time progressed.

[Illuminatus Primus]

If he had the forsight to know the Vong were coming, he should have know that by the time they got there in earnest, he would be gone, the galazy would be splintered as a result of his own actions and the effects of the war against him, and his power structure would be demolished.

This is the stupidest thing I have ever read in this forum.

It is basic and self-evident that Palpatine did not know what he would be vanquished and killed at any time. And there's no evidence he knew about the YV.

[PainRack]

If he had the forsight to know the Vong were coming, he should have know that by the time they got there in earnest, he would be gone, the galazy would be splintered as a result of his own actions and the effects of the war against him, and his power structure would be demolished.

This is the stupidest thing I have ever read in this forum.

It is basic and self-evident that Palpatine did not know what he would be vanquished and killed at any time. And there's no evidence he knew about the YV.

As someone who has a tendency to have his posts misread, I think you misread what he wrote.

He appeared to be saying that if palpatine knew the YV was coming, he would also know that he was dead by then and his Empire destroyed.

[UCBooties]

If he had the forsight to know the Vong were coming, he should have know that by the time they got there in earnest, he would be gone, the galazy would be splintered as a result of his own actions and the effects of the war against him, and his power structure would be demolished.

This is the stupidest thing I have ever read in this forum.

It is basic and self-evident that Palpatine did not know what he would be vanquished and killed at any time. And there's no evidence he knew about the YV.

Despite your being a prick, I'll concede that part of the point because the lack of clarity in Jedi (and therefor, we presume, Sith) forsight has been commented on by Yoda. As for whether he knew about the YV, there are some hints in NJO that he may have had some idea that they or someone like them would present a threat from outside the Galaxy. But my point that if he did know they were coming and he did bolster his military as a result of said knowledge, it would be for the purpose of maintaining his own power, not for the protection of the people and worlds under his authority.

[Illuminatus Primus]

That's bullshit. You're asserting he would have done something without any evidence and then holding him accountable for your unprovable suppositions. That makes no sense.

[UCBooties]

That's bullshit. You're asserting he would have done something without any evidence and then holding him accountable for your unprovable suppositions. That makes no sense.

You are, as usual, just looking for any oppurtunity to be a dick. We know Palpatine was evil. He was obsessed with maintianing his own power and increasing that power over others. He ruled a totalitarien government of fear and filled his top ranks with sociopaths like Tarkin. His actions durring the PT were deliberately conniving and evil; he manipulated galactic tensions to start a huge war so he could take power and consolidate his control. He used the situation to build up a military that he could then use to suppress and subjugate once they finished wiping out the Sepparatists. In the OT he disolved the Senate, bringing all control into his direct power structure. He ordered and built note one but two mobile battle stations specificly designed to destroy entire planets which threatened his control. How then, is there anything in the movie cannon, not even touching his spaz-go-nuts evil in the Dark Empire cycle, to dispute the contention that Palpy was nothing but a power mad Sith? What are you arguing here? Or are you just looking for an excuse to throw around pointless vitriol because you're pissed at me? You aren't refuting anything, you're just complaining, and it's not even clear what you are complaining about. Are you trying to say that we can't use observations of Palpatine motives and actions from the five released movies and EU material to infer what his motivation and actions would be at the introduction of a new variable, ie knowledge of a coming invasion? Palpatine has repeatedly shown himself to be a power hungry and manipulative despot, we can use this knowledge to contend that further actions on his part would be more of same. Stop being such a bitch.

[Illuminatus Primus]

That's bullshit. You're asserting he would have done something without any evidence and then holding him accountable for your unprovable suppositions. That makes no sense.

You are, as usual, just looking for any oppurtunity to be a dick. We know Palpatine was evil. He was obsessed with maintianing his own power and increasing that power over others. He ruled a totalitarien government of fear and filled his top ranks with sociopaths like Tarkin. His actions durring the PT were deliberately conniving and evil; he manipulated galactic tensions to start a huge war so he could take power and consolidate his control. He used the situation to build up a military that he could then use to suppress and subjugate once they finished wiping out the Sepparatists. In the OT he disolved the Senate, bringing all control into his direct power structure. He ordered and built note one but two mobile battle stations specificly designed to destroy entire planets which threatened his control. How then, is there anything in the movie cannon, not even touching his spaz-go-nuts evil in the Dark Empire cycle, to dispute the contention that Palpy was nothing but a power mad Sith? What are you arguing here? Or are you just looking for an excuse to throw around pointless vitriol because you're pissed at me? You aren't refuting anything, you're just complaining, and it's not even clear what you are complaining about. Are you trying to say that we can't use observations of Palpatine motives and actions from the five released movies and EU material to infer what his motivation and actions would be at the introduction of a new variable, ie knowledge of a coming invasion? Palpatine has repeatedly shown himself to be a power hungry and manipulative despot, we can use this knowledge to contend that further actions on his part would be more of same. Stop being such a bitch.

Uh huh. And this proves that he would not have put a thought toward repelling the YV into his militarization.

Right.

[UCBooties]

no, it proves, as I said before, that such thought towards repelling the YV in his militirization would be done with an eye towards consolidating his own power, not protecting his charges. Like I said earlier. So nice of you to concede the point. Now feel free to drag this out with more whining and flailing.

[Illuminatus Primus]

no, it proves, as I said before, that such thought towards repelling the YV in his militirization would be done with an eye towards consolidating his own power, not protecting his charges. Like I said earlier. So nice of you to concede the point. Now feel free to drag this out with more whining and flailing.

This coming from a guy who is trying to demonstrate that Palpatine is a bastard by asserting what he probably would have done based on the presumption that Palpatine is a bastard.

[UCBooties]

I have already given examples of how Palpatine is a bastard. You have yet to refute them. In fact, you have yet to make clear just what your contention is. You have yet to do anything nearing reasonable debate.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I have already given examples of how Palpatine is a bastard. You have yet to refute them. In fact, you have yet to make clear just what your contention is. You have yet to do anything nearing reasonable debate.

That's a nice Mike-impression you've put together in your two months here. I'm quite impressed.

Anyway, you cannot butress your opinion - Palpatine is a bastard - with things that hadn't happened yet and supported by circular logic; i.e., Palpatine is a bastard because he could have known about the Yuuzhan Vong and he would only have militarized against them with an eye toward protecting his own power - because he's a bastard.

You see? Not only is the whole point hypothetical and shaky at best, its also based on assuming the conclusion it is to support as a premise.

[UCBooties]

Let me clarify. Palpatine is a bastard. He is a bastard because of all the things we observe in the movies. He is a despot and power hungary and all of his actions in the movies are done in order to gain or maintain his control. I take this knowledge and apply it to the question of, what if Palpatine knew the Vong were coming? When I examine his past actions in light of the new question, I maintain that Palpatine remains a bastard and if he was, in fact bolstering his forces to repel said invasion, it in now way lessens the extent to which he is a bastard since his goal would remain the consolidation of his power. I hope that is a bit clearer. What is your problem with this contention?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Let me clarify. Palpatine is a bastard. He is a bastard because of all the things we observe in the movies. He is a despot and power hungary and all of his actions in the movies are done in order to gain or maintain his control. I take this knowledge and apply it to the question of, what if Palpatine knew the Vong were coming? When I examine his past actions in light of the new question, I maintain that Palpatine remains a bastard and if he was, in fact bolstering his forces to repel said invasion, it in now way lessens the extent to which he is a bastard since his goal would remain the consolidation of his power. I hope that is a bit clearer. What is your problem with this contention?

Palpatine's actions led to a system arguably worse able to deal with the Vong threat than the OR. If he had the forsight to know the Vong were coming, he should have know that by the time they got there in earnest, he would be gone, the galazy would be splintered as a result of his own actions and the effects of the war against him, and his power structure would be demolished.

Palpatine obviously did not know he was going to be destroyed, so this is buillshit.

Palpy may have known the Vong were coming, but he certainly didn't seize power in an altruistic move to make the Galaxy a safer place. If he did increase the military in response to an impending Vong threat, it would be to ensure the survival of his own reign, not the protection of the Galaxy.

This is actually just bitching that his motives for militarization - however effective they obviously would have been - are not earnest. Who cares? That's not the conclusion - the conclusion is that his choices made a weaker galaxy. It does not follow. This is not logically connected to the previous bits anyay.

You don't have a logical argument here.

[UCBooties]

I already conceded the first point, there was no reason to bring that back up.

As to the second, since the title of the thread and the OP contend that Palpatine was a good guy, it is permissible for me to attempt to prove he is not, in fact, a good guy. This makes motivation for actions both observable and infered fair game to the debate. I have merely repeated that we consistently observe Palpy to be a bad guy, and even if you want to add more variables for consideration, Palpy remains a bad guy.

[Illuminatus Primus]

As to the second, since the title of the thread and the OP contend that Palpatine was a good guy, it is permissible for me to attempt to prove he is not, in fact, a good guy. This makes motivation for actions both observable and infered fair game to the debate. I have merely repeated that we consistently observe Palpy to be a bad guy, and even if you want to add more variables for consideration, Palpy remains a bad guy.

The second is not an argument. What's the premise? Palpatine is a jerk? Ok. What's the conclusion? He did not want to defend against extragalactic invasion? Clearly false. Palpatine wasn't altruistic? DUH. This is just a repeat of the premise, which is my whole point.

Its just a jumble of phrases articulated a general feeling that Palpatine is a meanie.

[UCBooties]

Uh huh. I disagree with OP, Palpatine is in fact a bastard. Even if we take x situation into account, Palpatine is still a meanie, and any action he may have taken because of situation x would not change the fact that he was a meanie, they would in fact be taken because he was a meanie.

The OP wants us to believe that Palpy was good because

1. He could see the Vong coming
2. He made a government and army to stop them

I say Palpy is still bad because of what we have observed of his actions in the movies. This is not changed by the fact that he may have seen the Vong coming. Even if he did, and made a move to counter it, his motivation is still that of gaining and consolidating power and so, contrary to the OP, Palpy is a meanie.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Even if he did, and made a move to counter it, his motivation is still that of gaining and consolidating power and so, contrary to the OP, Palpy is a meanie.

You have no evidence. What his motivation would be is being speculated because he's a meanie, and used to prove the same thing - because he's not an altruist, he's a meanie.

Its circular logic, bub.