The X-wing novels suck

[2000AD]

No, he gave an implausible set of reasons and made the vague point that "We need to keep our tactics fresh, or run the risk of becoming stale like the Empire!"

And they did develope new tatcics, and their escape from Coruscant in Rebel Dream/Stand (whichever it was) showed why they're being pilots as well as commandos was a good idea, in fact their entire escape plan was based on it.

I can point out how it's idiotic, given both professions require SPECIALISED training.

And as i pointed out they did get the specialist training they required, such as Kell when he was a commando, Tyria in the the Antarian Rangers and Donas when he was in the Corellian military.

I was talking about the ROGUE SQUADRON books, for fuck's sake. As evidence for the fact I even mentioned the fucking TITLE.

I've finished reading Wraith Squadron, and then tried reading Iron Fist.

Yup, Wraith Squadron and Iron Fist were Rougue Squadron books, and obviously "Face" Loran, and Kell Tainer were members of Rogue Squadron.

What the fuck are you talking about? You accused me of not having read the WS books, then you point out a quote of me saying I've read the WS books.

The fucking thread title is "The X-wing Books suck!" so obviously I'm going to talk about the RS books.

Can you point out where i accused you of having not read the books? Oh look, no you can't, i accused you of having a piss poor memory dumbass!

And in case you didn't notice, the full title of Wraith Squadron was X-Wing: Wraith Squadron, and this trend fits all the WS books, so when you say "The X-Wing Books Suck" and go on to talk about having read Wraith Squadron and Iron Fist, i assume your talking about WS as well as RS books.

[Darth Sephiroth]

Why is Wedge invincible?

Because he's a damn good pilot, and he's not invincible, his craft has been shot up several times.

Context is everything. I liked Wedge, but there's a point where his exploits become too unfathomable. I was also talking about why the books don't show grunts but instead show superheros in flight suits.

[EDIT] Why is it when I read the TTT Zahn makes a point of showing Wedge not as a supercommando, or a superhero in a flight suit, but as a fucking pilot and as a squadron commander? Is it so much to expect the X-wing books to follow suit?

In NJO didn't they describe Wedge as the person who would go down in history as "Winning even when he tried to lose"?

Also, Corran was sort of responsible for the loss of Ithor

[2000AD]

In NJO didn't they describe Wedge as the person who would go down in history as "Winning even when he tried to lose"?

Also, Corran was sort of responsible for the loss of Ithor

That was due to the NR dropping a fleet (including an SSD) into a battle when he didn't know it was coming. His plan was to lose, with little or no losses, so that the Vong would pit an average commander against him but he ended up demolishing the opponent and thus got one of the best.

[Alyeska]

[*]8 KM 'Super' Star Destroyers. Even if you forget about scaling and going by what the canon movies go by, it's still idiotic to call it a Super Star Destroyer. The comics by Al Williamson and Archie Goodwin gave a name to Vader's flagship, and pointed out how it was the first ship of it's class. It should be an Excutor-class Star Something. Having both the Rebels and Imperials call it a Super Star Destroyer is embarassing.

If your attacking the X-Wing books because of this, then I suggest you go right ahead and flame any SW book that mentions SSDs. This is an error on the part of the authors taking WEG information. Its clear the SSDs they are describing are Executors. Besides, we've seen 3-5KM long ships described as SSDs before. Its a size distinction over your typicaly ISD and Mon-Cal sized ship.

[*]IIRC X-wing laser cannons do kiloton level damage right? Or was that their proton torpedos? Either one, you wouldn't know it from these books, as you'd often have characters destroy something on the ground and it will be showed to be a small explosion that destroys the building but little else. Just saying "I'm turning the cannon power down to make strafing runs" would have been welcome, but no...

Once again your singling out the X-Wing series when this is a common theme in several of the books.

[*]The complete and utter bullshit anti-Imperial bias. Dear fucking god. I hate the Empire and I'm on the Rebel's side, but shit, there's a limit. When I read the TTT you see a skilful contrast and comparison between the two, but if you read the X-wing books then the Imperials are so irredeemably evil that only an idiot could ever support them, and the Rebels are so much better in comparison. Straight out of the Horse's mouth, Lara basically says "OMG, the Empire used a culture of fear on itself while these Rebels are sitting back joking and chilling out!"

All they do is paint a handful of people as evil, and do remember several of these people once worked directly for the Emporer himself. Did you notice how they tended to portray the ship commanders as having morals and integrity? If you read Solo Command you would never note that Solo works together with an Imperial Admiral in the hunt for Zsinji.

[*]The villains. For fuck's sake. This is what I alluded to in the above point, but it deserves it's own section. Zsinj has a crewman executed because he was disobeying orders, yet it was shown he was a proficient pilot. His solution was: test him to see if he's a worthy pilot, then execute him for disobeying orders. Yep. Right. That makes sense. Zsinj need to twirl a moustache, right there.

Just like Vader executing people who fail to accomplish orders that were impossible. I really like where your going with this.

And Isard? "Oh, I'll release a virus into Coruscant, because I'm Evil. With a capital E. And I'll torture Tycho and Corran, because I need to prove I'm EEEEEEvil. Just in case you haven't figured it out yet, I also slept with the Emperor, so I'm also a tremendous Slut too."

I guess you forgot the little bit where Isard was trying to bankrupt and splinter the New Republic from within with the Krytoss Virus.

Jesus. Where is the Imperial version of the Desert Fox? The guy who the Rebels fought but without 'hate'?

So far you've encountered one insane inteligence director who took control of the Empire and one rather pompous Warlord. The X-Wing books actualy spend very little time dealing with the Empire itself directly, and when Allston does, he repeatedly shows examples of Imperial commanders who have integrity.

Ugh. So the EU sucks. I could have just believed that and chose not to waste tens of dollars on it. I still need to check out the Crispin trilogy, but right now I'm no longer holding out any hope.

The EU doesn't suck. Some authors are bad, some are good. You made blind statements about the X-Wing series and didn't even hit on everyones favorite gripe about it, Corran Horn the super hero.

[Knife]

And as i pointed out they did get the specialist training they required, such as Kell when he was a commando, Tyria in the the Antarian Rangers and Donas when he was in the Corellian military.

Its not that easy. They type of training we're talking about here is very time consuming. To be Either a pilot or a commando means you are constantly practicing those skills. To be both means that you'd have to make room for the other skills, which in turn means you turn out to be medicore in both.

You don't just go to sniper school and then you can shoot like a Wiz for the rest of your life. Those skill sets need constant practive to keep them sharp. Patroling and other special ops skill sets need practice or you become sloppy, you also need to practice them with the people you intend to work with so you're SOP's are straight.

Introducing another skill set that is just as time consuming as the original means you won't have time to practice each to satifactory levels.[/i]

[Illuminatus Primus]

It's the obvious example of needless evil, is it not?

"Oh, I'll release a virus into Coruscant, because I'm Evil. With a capital E."

"Oh, I'll destroy the planet because I'm Evil. With a capital E." Similar, no?

You're just a fanatical idiot if you pretend - however reprehensible the morality of the action - that the destruction of Alderaan did not accomplish political goals for the Galactic Empire.

[2000AD]

And as i pointed out they did get the specialist training they required, such as Kell when he was a commando, Tyria in the the Antarian Rangers and Donas when he was in the Corellian military.

Its not that easy. They type of training we're talking about here is very time consuming. To be Either a pilot or a commando means you are constantly practicing those skills. To be both means that you'd have to make room for the other skills, which in turn means you turn out to be medicore in both.

You don't just go to sniper school and then you can shoot like a Wiz for the rest of your life. Those skill sets need constant practive to keep them sharp.

Which is why Donos is shown to be practicing his sniping in both Wraith Squadron and Iron Fist and Grinder slices into the Fondor space dock for practice. Flight sims have gratuitious mention. they don't just let their skills stagnate.

Plus it's even pointed out that most of them are medicore at piloting, by Wedge, Janson and Phanan.

Patroling and other special ops skill sets need practice or you become sloppy, you also need to practice them with the people you intend to work with so you're SOP's are straight.

And it's shown that they do get sloppy, such as Castin Donn in IF underestimating Zsinj's security and the whole team getting caught by a factories security in WS.

I'm not saying they're perfect at both, it's clear that they're not, but i am saying that it is useful to have a second set of skills that may come in useful if the op goes tits up.

[Rogue 9]

It's the obvious example of needless evil, is it not?

"Oh, I'll release a virus into Coruscant, because I'm Evil. With a capital E."

"Oh, I'll destroy the planet because I'm Evil. With a capital E." Similar, no?

You're just a fanatical idiot if you pretend - however reprehensible the morality of the action - that the destruction of Alderaan did not accomplish political goals for the Galactic Empire.

And he's pretending that the Krytos virus did not do the same for Isard. Two can play that game.

[Illuminatus Primus]

It's the obvious example of needless evil, is it not?
"Oh, I'll destroy the planet because I'm Evil. With a capital E." Similar, no?

You're just a fanatical idiot if you pretend - however reprehensible the morality of the action - that the destruction of Alderaan did not accomplish political goals for the Galactic Empire.

And he's pretending that the Krytos virus did not do the same for Isard. Two can play that game.

Look, wrenchfuck, this is not a SoD debate; the point is Stackpole, being a lame fuck, couldn't help himself but show an Imperial leader getting their jollies off of killing lots of people. They had to show it again and again - they could not possibly show a different kind of Imperial leader, even in terms of degrees.

[Kuja]

Wraith Squadron was the most silly of the three, but the trilogy was a hell of a lot better than Stackpole's contribution. Just for killing off characters with more than two sentences of backstory and development. Does anyone remember anything that Gavin's wingman said in the three ad a half books that occured before he was shot down?

It's my pet theory that Stackpole didn't write much about Riv Shiel because he and Gavin were lovers.

Which would be where Gavin picked up his penchant for furries.

[Alyeska]

And as i pointed out they did get the specialist training they required, such as Kell when he was a commando, Tyria in the the Antarian Rangers and Donas when he was in the Corellian military.

Its not that easy. They type of training we're talking about here is very time consuming. To be Either a pilot or a commando means you are constantly practicing those skills. To be both means that you'd have to make room for the other skills, which in turn means you turn out to be medicore in both.

You don't just go to sniper school and then you can shoot like a Wiz for the rest of your life. Those skill sets need constant practive to keep them sharp. Patroling and other special ops skill sets need practice or you become sloppy, you also need to practice them with the people you intend to work with so you're SOP's are straight.

Introducing another skill set that is just as time consuming as the original means you won't have time to practice each to satifactory levels.

Its a common brainbug in scifi, and frankly, a relatively minor one. Might as well bitch the main characters in SW are so uber at so many things. Luke, Jedi and Pilot. Mara, Commando, Jedi, and Pilot. Han, Brawler, smuggler, pilot, pistol marksman. Chewie, Lando, etc...

[Illuminatus Primus]

Its a common brainbug in scifi, and frankly, a relatively minor one. Might as well bitch the main characters in SW are so uber at so many things. Luke, Jedi and Pilot. Mara, Commando, Jedi, and Pilot. Han, Brawler, smuggler, pilot, pistol marksman. Chewie, Lando, etc...

On that last point, I always thought that the X-wing books were supposed to show the GRUNTS of the Rebellion/Empire, books like the Thrawn Trilogy show the Big Guys, like GADM Mitt'hraw'nurodo and Jedi Knight Skywalker, or Counselor Organa, or Talon Karrde.

[Rogue 9]

You're just a fanatical idiot if you pretend - however reprehensible the morality of the action - that the destruction of Alderaan did not accomplish political goals for the Galactic Empire.

And he's pretending that the Krytos virus did not do the same for Isard. Two can play that game.

Look, wrenchfuck, this is not a SoD debate; the point is Stackpole, being a lame fuck, couldn't help himself but show an Imperial leader getting their jollies off of killing lots of people. They had to show it again and again - they could not possibly show a different kind of Imperial leader, even in terms of degrees.

What the hell is your problem? I used that example because it's entirely analogous. I was counting on him objecting that Tarkin had other motives, at which point I would make him acknowledge Isard's, but he chose to admit that the perceived problem of wanton brutality was widespread among Imperial leaders, which also works for me. Either way, his position is now consistent. Victory.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Yes, such a hollow, empty victory for the little Rebel fanwhore.

[Rogue 9]

Yes, such a hollow, empty victory for the little Rebel fanwhore.

I take what I can get.

[Illuminatus Primus]

What the hell is your problem? I used that example because it's entirely analogous. I was counting on him objecting that Tarkin had other motives, at which point I would make him acknowledge Isard's, but he chose to admit that the perceived problem of wanton brutality was widespread among Imperial leaders, which also works for me. Either way, his position is now consistent. Victory.

You still don't get it. The central point is that Stackpole simply could not resist having a ruthless, mustache-twirling megalomaniac as an Imperial leader.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Yeah, as I said before, there's a difference between just being a villian and being Snidely Whiplash.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The whiny cocksucker won't get it though.

[Rogue 9]

What the hell is your problem? I used that example because it's entirely analogous. I was counting on him objecting that Tarkin had other motives, at which point I would make him acknowledge Isard's, but he chose to admit that the perceived problem of wanton brutality was widespread among Imperial leaders, which also works for me. Either way, his position is now consistent. Victory.

You still don't get it. The central point is that Stackpole simply could not resist having a ruthless, mustache-twirling megalomaniac as an Imperial leader.

And neither could Lucas. So if that's such a problem for you, you're a Wars fan why?

[Illuminatus Primus]

What the hell is your problem? I used that example because it's entirely analogous. I was counting on him objecting that Tarkin had other motives, at which point I would make him acknowledge Isard's, but he chose to admit that the perceived problem of wanton brutality was widespread among Imperial leaders, which also works for me. Either way, his position is now consistent. Victory.

You still don't get it. The central point is that Stackpole simply could not resist having a ruthless, mustache-twirling megalomaniac as an Imperial leader.

And neither could Lucas. So if that's such a problem for you, you're a Wars fan why?

BECAUSE THAT'S THE CENTRAL STORY, SHITBOX! IF YOU'RE GOING TO EXPAND THE UNIVERSE, THAN YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE THE SAME APED STEREOTYPES OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

[Knife]

Which is why Donos is shown to be practicing his sniping in both Wraith Squadron and Iron Fist and Grinder slices into the Fondor space dock for practice. Flight sims have gratuitious mention. they don't just let their skills stagnate.

Plus it's even pointed out that most of them are medicore at piloting, by Wedge, Janson and Phanan.

They do a good deal of mentioning the flight sims, and that they do it alot, which should give you an idea of how much time if not more, they should invest in the flight sims to hone their skills. To add ontop of that the practice time they'd need to hone their commando skills, you'd run out of hours of the day.

And it's shown that they do get sloppy, such as Castin Donn in IF underestimating Zsinj's security and the whole team getting caught by a factories security in WS.

I don't deny that Allaston introduced a certain amount of realism in respects to who died and how many times the team gets compermised.

I'm not saying they're perfect at both, it's clear that they're not, but i am saying that it is useful to have a second set of skills that may come in useful if the op goes tits up.

Its usefull to have a second set of skills, as long as managing those skills doesn't make you lax at your primary skill set. In the Wraiths, you have two primary skill sets that are competing for time and there isn't enough time in the day to practice both to adaquate levels.

It would be like being a high price defense attorney, working 12-14 hours a day there, then getting off and go on duty as a Doctor at the Emergency Room. How good a Doc are you going to be? How good of a Lawyer? Each job is very demanding, and you wouldn't have enough time a day to work/practice each job to make you a competent Doc/Lawyer.

[The Original Nex]

I'll take this as a sign to not read these books then....

[Aaron]

I'll take this as a sign to not read these books then....

I'm with you. I've only read Truce at Bakura, Trawn Trilogy and Courtship of Princess Leia. And after reading this thread, I'm not touching another EU book.

[The Original Nex]

I've reasd the all the Zhan books and actually finished the NJO.

Survivor's Quest was hardly Zhan's best, and there were several letdowns in the NJO, but so-far, my EU experience has been relatively good.

The two reasons I like the NJO were mainly the Vong and the Empire. THe Jedi really sucked, as did the New Republic. The Vong were, IMO, good as villains, and the Empire was finally portrayed in the light I've always wanted (especially in the Force Heretic Trilogy).

Then, I recieve a copy of the Crystal Star. It read about thirty pages, and haven't picked it up since.

Lets just hope Denning does his job in the Dark Nest trilogy.....

[Stofsk]

And they did develope new tatcics, and their escape from Coruscant in Rebel Dream/Stand (whichever it was) showed why they're being pilots as well as commandos was a good idea, in fact their entire escape plan was based on it.

I wasn't talking about the NJO, but about the X-wing books in the Bantam era.

And these glorious tactics, please read Lord Poe's comment earlier in this thread.

I can point out how it's idiotic, given both professions require SPECIALISED training.

And as i pointed out they did get the specialist training they required, such as Kell when he was a commando, Tyria in the the Antarian Rangers and Donas when he was in the Corellian military.

Yes, no SHIT. The point I was trying to make was that this doesnt. MAKE. SENSE. They're supposed to be grunts. Grunts! Not superheros. The entire premise behind the X-wing books was, to my mind, to show the war from the ground level. Cut out the Jedi/Sith/Grand Admirals, and show the grunts fight a battle for a change. Well, what kind of grunt knows how to pilot SEVERAL different vessels, while having a variety of intrusion and subversion skills, or knowing how to snipe or plant demolitions, when specialising in these fields requires constant practice?

Can you point out where i accused you of having not read the books? Oh look, no you can't, i accused you of having a piss poor memory dumbass!

that book you said you read but don't seem to remember anything about.

Backhanded, snide comment from one person who *has* read the books against someone he accuses of "not remembering anything about them" which is functionally no different from saying "You didn't read them properly" which is again, not far from saying "You didn't read them at all."

Which isn't justified, motherfucker. As my 'piss poor memory' was in relation to the RS books which I readily conceded to someone else, whereas I have read Wraith Squadron recently and it was fresh in my mind. So when you say "oops, the books you OBVIOUSLY didn't remember these key facts which I've recited" there is little difference in saying "oops, I guess you didn't read it properly", making your 'rebuttal' somewhat odd, as you might as well have stated I didn't read the fucking books.