Europe is beginning to awaken...

[MKSheppard]

Linky

Stoned to death... why Europe is starting to lose its faith in Islam
By Charles Bremner

Islamic fundamentalism is causing a 'clash of civilisations' between liberal democracies and Muslims

DAYS before she was due to be married, Ghofrane Haddaoui, 23, refused the advances of a teenage boy and paid with her life. Lured to waste ground near her home in Marseilles, the Tunisian-born Frenchwoman was stoned to death, her skull smashed by rocks hurled by at least two young men, according to police.

Although the circumstances of the murder are not clear, the horrific “lapidation” of the young Muslim stoked a French belief that the country can no longer tolerate the excesses of an alien culture in its midst.

A few days ago, pop celebrities joined 2,000 people in a march through Marseilles denouncing violence against women, particularly in the immigrant-dominated housing estates. The protest against Islamic “obscurantism” and the “fundamentalism that imprisons women” was led by a group of Muslim women who call themselves Ni Putes ni Soumises (Neither Whores nor Submissive).

The movement, which emerged three years ago to defend Muslim women, is spawning similar groups across Europe, supported by a mainstream opinion that has recently abandoned political correctness and wants to halt the inroads of Islam.

From Norway to Sicily, governments, politicians and the media are laying aside their doctrines of diversity and insisting that “Islamism”, as the French call the fundamentalist form that pervades the housing estates, is incompatible with Europe’s liberal values.

The shift is not just a reaction to exceptional violence such as the Madrid train bombings, or the murder of Theo van Gogh, the anti-Islamic Dutch film-maker, by a Dutch-Moroccan. It stems from a belief that more muscular methods are needed to integrate Europe’s 13-million strong Muslim community and to combat creeds that breed extremists and ultimately, terrorism. With mixed results, governments are trying to quell the scourge by co- opting Muslim leaders to promote a moderate European Islam.

In Germany, with its three million — mainly Turkish — Muslims, and France, with its five million of mainly North African descent, television viewers were shocked when local young Muslims approved of Van Gogh’s murder. “If you insult Islam, you have to pay,” was a typical response.

“The notion of multiculturalism has fallen apart,” said Angela Merkel, leader of Germany’s Christian Democrat opposition. “Anyone coming here must respect our constitution and tolerate our Western and Christian roots.” Italy’s traditional tolerance towards immigrants has been eroded by fear of Islamism. An Ipsos poll in September showed that 48 per cent of Italians believed that a “clash of civilisations” between Islam and the West was under way and that Islam was “a religion more fanatical than any other”.

Similar views can be heard across traditionally tolerant Scandinavia — and no longer just from the populist rightwing party’s such as Pia Kjaersgaard’s People’s Party in Denmark. The centre-right Government of Anders Fogh Rasmussen, has equipped Denmark with Europe’s toughest curbs on immigration, largely aimed at people from Muslim countries. In Sweden, where anti-Muslim feeling is running high and mosques have been burnt, schools have been authorised to ban pupils who wear full Islamic head-cover, although the measure comes nowhere near France’s new ban on the hijab in all state schools.

In Spain, with a rapidly rising population of nearly a million Muslims, the backlash has been less visible despite the bombings, but thousands demonstrated in Seville this week against plans to build a mosque in the city centre. The Government has also won approval by sending 500 extra police to monitor preachers and Muslim associations.

Police across the EU are closely watching prayer meetings in makeshift mosques in cities and housing estates, and media accounts of the jihadist, anti-Western and anti-semitic doctrines of the imams are fuelling public anger. In Germany, pressure is growing for sermons to be preached in German rather than Turkish or Arabic. Hidden TV cameras recently broadcast an imam in a Berlin mosque telling worshippers that “Germans can only expect to rot in the fires of hell because they are nonbelievers”.

The debate over the limits to free speech is loudest in France, which now acknowledges the failure of its “republican” approach to integration whereby immigrants were supposed to blend harmoniously into society and not exist in separate communities.

Dominique de Villepin, the Interior Minister, is deporting foreign imams who support wife-beating and other uncivilised practices. This week the Government moved to ban a Lebanon-based television channel for anti-semitic broadcasting. The left wing, which long shunned criticism of Islam as the stock-in-trade of Jean-Marie le Pen, the far-Right leader, now denounces the “totalitarian”, anti-feminist, antisemitic doctrines of the fundamentalists. Jacques Julliard, a leading left-wing commentator, said the Left’s longstanding tolerance had been used as “an agent for the penetration of Islamic intolerance”.

Some on the Left have also taken strong exception to the concept of “Islamophobia”, a supposed sin defined by EU anti-racism watchdogs as akin to anti-Semitism.

The French consensus was symbolised by the 80 per cent public support for the head-scarf ban, which started with little trouble in September. While many Muslims felt stigmatised, the Government took comfort from the approval of the ban by a substantial minority of the 10 per cent of the population that is of immigrant origin.

Among them is Fadela Amara, a Muslim town councillor from Clermond Ferrand, who heads the Ni Putes, Ni Soumises movement. “The veil is an instrument of oppression that is imposed by the green fascists,” she says. Mme Amara, who led the Marseilles march, advocates an “open Islam, an Islam of French culture a bit Gallic around the edges”. This is also the aim of the state, which two years ago created a national Muslim Council to promote moderate mainstream Islam. The council was set up by Nicolas Sarkozy, the then Interior Minister, who now heads the UMP, President Chirac’s centre-right party.

M Sarkozy has just caused a stir by going a stage further, proposing that France’s rigorously secular state fund the building of mosques. “Whether I like it or not, Islam is the second biggest religion in France. So you have to integrate it by making it more French,” he said. To general dismay, however, the national council is coming increasingly under the effective control of radicals.

Reluctantly, some intellectuals have lately concluded that the model for Europe should be the US. On Tuesday a writer for Libération, the French left-wing daily, noted that immigrants in the US threw themselves into “the American dream” and prospered. “There is no French, Dutch or other European dream,” she noted. “You emigrate here to escape poverty and nothing more."

[Admiral Valdemar]

Good. Now I'd be even happier if we acknowledged the other religious fundies rife throughout Europe and the US.

[CJvR]

If you are refering to the Mosq that burnt in Malmö it was only an annex and the most likely suspects are one gang of Islamic fanatics who don't think the rest of the fanatics are fanatic enough. Publicly both gangs agreed that the Swedes had to be guilty since no Muslim would ever do something like that...

Still it is pleasant that this issue is starting to surface, demanding that Islamists obey Swedish law was long considered a racist opinion. Particulary the revolutionary concept that muslim girls should have basic human rights - the shock this caused in the social welfare burocracy is still felt around the country.

[salm]

“The notion of multiculturalism has fallen apart,” said Angela Merkel, leader of Germany’s Christian Democrat opposition. “Anyone coming here must respect our constitution and tolerate our Western and Christian roots.”

merkel is an idiot. it´s always been like this. everybody HAS to respect the constitution. and everybody HAS to tolerate western and christian roots.

[Mange]

If you are refering to the Mosq that burnt in Malmö it was only an annex and the most likely suspects are one gang of Islamic fanatics who don't think the rest of the fanatics are fanatic enough. Publicly both gangs agreed that the Swedes had to be guilty since no Muslim would ever do something like that...

Still it is pleasant that this issue is starting to surface, demanding that Islamists obey Swedish law was long considered a racist opinion. Particulary the revolutionary concept that muslim girls should have basic human rights - the shock this caused in the social welfare burocracy is still felt around the country.

Yes, that's true. CJvR, perhaps I should ask this in a PM instead, but did you see Rapport Morgon the other day when they discussed the short report on Rosengård and the views on Muslims in Sweden that was shown on Fox News?

[Plekhanov]

What a surprise one of Murdocks many mouthpieces attempting to whip up anti-muslim and anti-immigrant feeling by cherry picking examples of strife from all over the Europe to try and create a picture of a continent on the edge. I only hope that he's successful Shep and that Europe will soon fully awaken and embrace your enlightened policy of genocide to solve “problem” of Islam.

Hidden TV cameras recently broadcast an imam in a Berlin mosque telling worshippers that “Germans can only expect to rot in the fires of hell because they are nonbelievers”.

Those bastards teaching that nonbelievers will “rot in the fires of hell” why can't they learn from their Christian countrymen who's priests who never say anything like that and who's religion is in no way based upon the exact same principle

Reluctantly, some intellectuals have lately concluded that the model for Europe should be the US. On Tuesday a writer for Libération, the French left-wing daily, noted that immigrants in the US threw themselves into “the American dream” and prospered.

Yes we should aspire to be more like America that fully integrated mono-culture where immigrants are all fully integrated, oh wait...

“There is no French, Dutch or other European dream,” she noted. “You emigrate here to escape poverty and nothing more."

Erm correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that basically the American dream?

[Admiral Valdemar]

Now, now, Plekhanov, the fact that the issue is coming to light is good in itself. How some see this is another matter entirely. The Times is hardly FOX News in terms of bias and scaremongering at least.

In anycase, it needs to be addressed by the powers that be and what solution they come up with will be critically looked into no doubt. We're not going to suddenly jump on the US' boat for instance. Even if we did, the EU takes so long to pass anything we'll likely be dead by that time.

[MKSheppard]

What a surprise one of Murdocks many mouthpieces attempting to whip up anti-muslim and anti-immigrant feeling by cherry picking examples of strife from all over the Europe to try and create a picture of a continent on the edge. I only hope that he's successful Shep and that Europe will soon fully awaken and embrace your enlightened policy of genocide to solve “problem” of Islam.

Yes, and we all know how "enlightened" Islam is....

“If you insult Islam, you have to pay,” was a typical response.

Yes, lets let those scumfucks walk around Europe unfettered,
and allow them to bring in more and more and more of their own
ilk! What a remarkable way to preserve the Europe we all know
as a place of tolerance for other peoples and cultures!

[Steve]

What a surprise one of Murdocks many mouthpieces attempting to whip up anti-muslim and anti-immigrant feeling by cherry picking examples of strife from all over the Europe to try and create a picture of a continent on the edge. I only hope that he's successful Shep and that Europe will soon fully awaken and embrace your enlightened policy of genocide to solve “problem” of Islam.

And of course, he mentioned genocide.... where?

At most you'd have deportation of hardline radicals, and I really don't see why that's bad.

Hidden TV cameras recently broadcast an imam in a Berlin mosque telling worshippers that “Germans can only expect to rot in the fires of hell because they are nonbelievers”.

Those bastards teaching that nonbelievers will “rot in the fires of hell” why can't they learn from their Christian countrymen who's priests who never say anything like that and who's religion is in no way based upon the exact same principle

Okay, what kind of defense is that? How does that excuse, in any way, the intolerance and hatred of extreme Islam toward non-Muslims or Muslims who don't share their views?

Reluctantly, some intellectuals have lately concluded that the model for Europe should be the US. On Tuesday a writer for Libération, the French left-wing daily, noted that immigrants in the US threw themselves into “the American dream” and prospered.

Yes we should aspire to be more like America that fully integrated mono-culture where immigrants are all fully integrated, oh wait...

Immigrants are integrated enough. Given that our country has sizable populations from Poland, Russia, Italy, Ireland, Germany, Scandanavia, China, Vietnam, and Japan, amongst other nations, that freely intermingle culturally and have been intermarrying for years, we do have a rather good track record.

Yes, you still have "Little Italy" and "Chinatown" across the country, but those little islands of culture are a part of the much larger whole; "American culture" is really a hodgepodge of other cultures' ideas being elevated to the whole. Hence why we like Chinese food, pizza and spaghetti, hamburgers and frankfurters, why we have a school grade called "kindergarten", etc.

“There is no French, Dutch or other European dream,” she noted. “You emigrate here to escape poverty and nothing more."

Erm correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that basically the American dream?

Actually, the American Dream has more to do with finding success than merely escaping poverty.


So, what is your solution to the integration problems of Muslims in Europe and their failure to do so, plus the growing intolerance and extremitism of Muslims in Europe?

[Darth Wong]

What makes anyone think that Muslims in America are going to integrate any more seamlessly than they have in Europe? The fact that it isn't as bad right now? Well no shit, Sherlock; Europe is geographically much closer to the seat of Muslim power than America, hence Muslim immigration is much larger and better-established. But if you believe that, say, 15% of America could be Muslim and that vaunted "American dream" would guarantee their seamless assimilation into your society, you're on drugs.

[Plekhanov]

Now, now, Plekhanov, the fact that the issue is coming to light is good in itself. How some see this is another matter entirely. The Times is hardly FOX News in terms of bias and scaremongering at least.

In anycase, it needs to be addressed by the powers that be and what solution they come up with will be critically looked into no doubt. We're not going to suddenly jump on the US' boat for instance. Even if we did, the EU takes so long to pass anything we'll likely be dead by that time.

I agree that the ways in which the UK (and quite possible the rest of Europe) integrates immigrant communities into the wider preexisting communities could do with looking but think that this kind of scaremongering article is entirely the wrong way to go about things.

What a surprise one of Murdocks many mouthpieces attempting to whip up anti-muslim and anti-immigrant feeling by cherry picking examples of strife from all over the Europe to try and create a picture of a continent on the edge. I only hope that he's successful Shep and that Europe will soon fully awaken and embrace your enlightened policy of genocide to solve “problem” of Islam.

Yes, and we all know how "enlightened" Islam is....

“Islam” (if you can even talk of such a thing as a single entity) may have its problems but compared to your oft repeated desire to wipe out well over a billion people it's pretty damn enlightened.

“If you insult Islam, you have to pay,” was a typical response.

Yes, lets let those scumfucks walk around Europe unfettered, and allow them to bring in more and more and more of their own ilk! What a remarkable way to preserve the Europe we all know
as a place of tolerance for other peoples and cultures!

Nice selective quoting that was actually a “typical response” of young muslims shown on a TV program which I suspect didn't exactly show a representative sample of “responses” to Van Gogh's death as a few morons spouting extremist rhetoric is so much more newsworthy and exciting than any number of moderates. I know quite a a large number of “young muslims” and not a single one subscribes to the doctrine of “If you insult Islam, you have to pay,” that kind of thing is much more “typical” of muslims in the media than in real life.

What a surprise one of Murdocks many mouthpieces attempting to whip up anti-muslim and anti-immigrant feeling by cherry picking examples of strife from all over the Europe to try and create a picture of a continent on the edge. I only hope that he's successful Shep and that Europe will soon fully awaken and embrace your enlightened policy of genocide to solve “problem” of Islam.

And of course, he mentioned genocide.... where?

In practically every thread involving Muslims he's ever involved in

At most you'd have deportation of hardline radicals, and I really don't see why that's bad.

If we have 1st gen. immigrants committing criminal offenses and attempting to other throw our society then they should be dealt with if you mean that we should deport British nationals simply because they have a strong faith which you find objectionable I'd have to disagree.

Hidden TV cameras recently broadcast an imam in a Berlin mosque telling worshippers that “Germans can only expect to rot in the fires of hell because they are nonbelievers”.

Those bastards teaching that nonbelievers will “rot in the fires of hell” why can't they learn from their Christian countrymen who's priests who never say anything like that and who's religion is in no way based upon the exact same principle

Okay, what kind of defense is that? How does that excuse, in any way, the intolerance and hatred of extreme Islam toward non-Muslims or Muslims who don't share their views?

What intolerance and hatred beyond that relayed in pretty much every Christian Church ever (save for the non-evangelical branch of the CofE in the UK which no longer claims a monopoly on the truth) is evident in the statement “Germans can only expect to rot in the fires of hell because they are nonbelievers”?

The belief that nonbelievers will burn is a central tenet of Christianity and you could “secretly film” any number priests, vicars or whatever making equivalent statements, you would seem to live in Florida try listening to some Christian radio or watching some Christian TV or maybe visit a church and you will here the exact same message as that Imam's, unless you're as outraged by your your local evangelists as you are by this particular German Imam then you're a damn hypocrite.

Yes we should aspire to be more like America that fully integrated mono-culture where immigrants are all fully integrated, oh wait...

Immigrants are integrated enough. Given that our country has sizable populations from Poland, Russia, Italy, Ireland, Germany, Scandanavia, China, Vietnam, and Japan, amongst other nations, that freely intermingle culturally and have been intermarrying for years, we do have a rather good track record.

Yes, you still have "Little Italy" and "Chinatown" across the country, but those little islands of culture are a part of the much larger whole; "American culture" is really a hodgepodge of other cultures' ideas being elevated to the whole. Hence why we like Chinese food, pizza and spaghetti, hamburgers and frankfurters, why we have a school grade called "kindergarten", etc.

I'll let your overly rosy picture of the US's history of absorbing immigrants pass as I don't have much time but I'd urge you to try and remember when much of that immigration took place and the strife which occurred at the time.

Muslim immigration into Europe has largely been a post war occurrence so we're still in the early stages of integration. It's ridiculous to compare post war immigrant communities in Europe with those in the US because they are at different stages in development.

“There is no French, Dutch or other European dream,” she noted. “You emigrate here to escape poverty and nothing more."

Erm correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that basically the American dream?

Actually, the American Dream has more to do with finding success than merely escaping poverty.

You know damn well that's just another way of saying the exact same thing.

So, what is your solution to the integration problems of Muslims in Europe and their failure to do so, plus the growing intolerance and extremitism of Muslims in Europe?

Before I suggest any solutions I'd like to see some real evidence that the problems you describe are real, a collection of anecdotes of muslims behaving badly from throughout Europe such as Shep's article just doesn't cut it.

[SirNitram]

Actually, the American Dream has more to do with finding success than merely escaping poverty.

You know damn well that's just another way of saying the exact same thing.[/quote]

No, it's not. As an Immigrant, I think I'm qualified to state this. There's a substantial gap between 'Being successful' and 'Not being in poverty'. At least, if you beleive the crap about how the average American should be able to save some money...

[CJvR]

but did you see Rapport Morgon the other day when they discussed the short report on Rosengård and the views on Muslims in Sweden that was shown on Fox News?

No missed that, anything intresting?

[Uther]

What makes anyone think that Muslims in America are going to integrate any more seamlessly than they have in Europe? The fact that it isn't as bad right now? Well no shit, Sherlock; Europe is geographically much closer to the seat of Muslim power than America, hence Muslim immigration is much larger and better-established. But if you believe that, say, 15% of America could be Muslim and that vaunted "American dream" would guarantee their seamless assimilation into your society, you're on drugs.

Maybe, but in the end it's a bit of a moot point. The U.S. Muslim population is something like 6 or 7 million, and of those, only a very small percentage are Arab. Many are Black Muslims who converted in prison. Now, while that particular strain of Islam is sometimes a bit radical, the Black Muslim population does not present the same cultural problems that the European Muslim immigrants do.

This is and will remain a primarily European problem, especially in light of the fact that the birth rates in many European nations are below replacement levels, necessitating immigration from somewhere to avoid population shrinkage.

[Dark Primus]

In Sweden, where anti-Muslim feeling is running high and mosques have been burnt, schools have been authorised to ban pupils who wear full Islamic head-cover

Strange I haven't heard any of this, but it would not surprise me.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Strange I haven't heard any of this, but it would not surprise me.

I'm suspect over that. If France just suggesting a ban on such wear is international news, then outright banning it already is certainly worth mentioning.

[Mange]

but did you see Rapport Morgon the other day when they discussed the short report on Rosengård and the views on Muslims in Sweden that was shown on Fox News?

No missed that, anything intresting?

Nah, they referred to the report on Fox News about Rosengård (for those of you not knowing what Rosengård is, it's a section of the Swedish city of Malmö with 20 000 inhabitants of which nearly 85 % are of another ethnicity than Swedish, most are Muslims) as saying it was showing an one-sided view that focused on the problems, such as rescue workers not wanting to respond to calls from Rosengård without police escort as they are attacked by the residents, that students don't speak or understand Swedish and they mentioned the burning down of the mosque (as you elaborated on).

After the report was shown, there was a studio debate with writer/journalist Lars Sundström and a representative from QuickResponse (that reviews the Swedish media on matters concerning immigration and xenophobia). They basically said that the report on Fox was one-sided and didn't show the positive things such as the cultural offerings etc, and said that it's not the immigrants that should adapt to Swedish society but the Swedes that should adapt to the multi-ethnic society. I think svt.se have the whole part of the programme as a media player file (they usually do).

[tharkûn]

What makes anyone think that Muslims in America are going to integrate any more seamlessly than they have in Europe?

Dearborn, Michigan.

Yes it is an ethnic community similar to "Little Italy" or "Little Mexico", but for first and second generation immigrants it is fairly well integrated. At last count 30% of the town was Muslim so we see it well above the 15% threshold and appear to have far fewer Islamicist crimes than similar communities in Europe.

Really Muslim immigrants to America aren't worse than many religious sects already here. About 50% are self-professed devout Muslims (lower than Christians) and only about 1 in 3 women even cover their hair. Further like their Christian counterparts American Muslims are deeply divided along theological lines, in numerous cases you end up with one sect of Muslims siding with one sect of Christians against another sect of Muslims siding with another sect of Christians.


Sure there will be ugly moments and ethnic tensions and all the other assorted crap that has always plagued immigrant communities, but America has dealt with that before. Are the differences between Hispanic Catholics and the WASPs that much greater than between Muslims and WASPs? All told if America can withstand Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses ... what are few more monotheists? Eventually I think the religious right will be more than willing to make common cause with strict Muslims.


The real reason why America can better handle this immigration is because European states are ludicriously homogenous in comparison. It is one thing to be the most recent immigrant group in a long line of such groups, it is another the be the first major such group. It is one thing where the "majority" is fractiously divided by creed (Catholic vs Protestant vs Reformed, etc.) and ethnic heritigae (Scothish vs Irish vs Polish vs Swedish vs Dutch vs German vs French) it is another when everyone else is a "uniform" bloc.

[Elfdart]

What a surprise one of Murdocks many mouthpieces attempting to whip up anti-muslim and anti-immigrant feeling by cherry picking examples of strife from all over the Europe to try and create a picture of a continent on the edge. I only hope that he's successful Shep and that Europe will soon fully awaken and embrace your enlightened policy of genocide to solve “problem” of Islam.

Yes, and we all know how "enlightened" Islam is....

“If you insult Islam, you have to pay,” was a typical response.

Yes, lets let those scumfucks walk around Europe unfettered,
and allow them to bring in more and more and more of their own
ilk! What a remarkable way to preserve the Europe we all know
as a place of tolerance for other peoples and cultures!

Substitute the word "Jew" or "Gypsy" for "Muslim" and Sheepfucker's ravings read like the fappings of Julius Streicher. That last paragraph is a doozy.

[Elfdart]

Tharkun is mostly right. Societies have a kind of gravity to them, with the larger one pulling in the smaller. Even for minorities, the pressure to conform is overwhelming after two generations. I was just reading about the Tresca case (1923). At the time, there were at least eight Italian-language newspapers in New York alone. Certain parts of the city did everything in that language. By the 1940s, most spoke American -even at home, and by the 1960s, most Italian-Americans only knew a little Italian. Today, most of them only know Italian because they took classes in school. Poles, Germans and Eastern European Jews went through the same thing. Twenty-five years ago, Cheech Marin joked about hispanics who only know Spanish because they took it in high school and got a "B".

The French fucked up by making a big deal over the head scarf. They could have left it alone and let peer pressure run its course and before you know it, all those Arab, Berber, Iranian and Turkish girls would be shopping for Fuck Me Pumps. If the Euros learn from France's fuck-up, they won't try to ram their culture down the throats of immigrants. It always backfires.

[Julhelm]

They basically said that the report on Fox was one-sided and didn't show the positive things such as the cultural offerings etc, and said that it's not the immigrants that should adapt to Swedish society but the Swedes that should adapt to the multi-ethnic society.

Riiiiiiiiight.

Möllan is a 100x better example of "multiethniticy" and "cultural offerings".

[tharkûn]

Peer pressure doesn't always work, in some individuals when confronted with a strange an alien culture they become more hardened in their religious and ethnic traditions. Whole religious sects arose in America as new immigrants responded in recoil to the alien environment before them.

Europe is going to have problems regardless of whether or not they try to enforce cultural homogeniety. There will always be immigrants who reject the modern secular state, the will self-associate, and then you end up with a patch-work quilt of different immigrant groups. Europe hasn't had to deal with this phenomena since the splintering of the western Christian church in the 1500's. In the US, this process has been near continious since the early 1800's and frankly what are a few more isolated religious communities? It is not like the Mormons, Amish, Hasidic Jews, Branch Davidians, etc. haven't been there, done that.

All told I expect Islamic immigrants will end up being no different than Shinto, Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Reformed, Jewish, etc. immigrants have been in times past. At present communities like Dearborn seem to be mirroring historical trends quite nicely.

[PrinceofLowLight]

I don't see anything wrong with cracking down on extremism. Good for them for starting to realize "It's their culture/religion!" is not an excuse for criminal behavior. Yes, there are other extremists, but it has to start somewhere. People have to acknowledge that extremism and fundamentalism are problems in the first place. It has to start somewhere. Sometimes you have to look into another culture to see its flaws mirrored in your own, y'know?

[HemlockGrey]

I'm not so sure about the inevitability of integration. Just look at "black culture," if anything, it is continously seperating itself from typical "american culture".

[Illuminatus Primus]

...and assimilating non-blacks, too.

Ghetto culture is the most loathesome thing ever concieved. Its the only thing which could push me to endorse the levels of cultural chauvenism by the governments in Europe here.