Borg/Species 8472/Empire Debate

[Darth Servo]

The Rebellion is far more than just Rhode Island. It did have heavy military cruisers and worse.

O.K. would you care to suggest how much of the U.S. resources rebelling would be proportional to the SW Rebellion?

[D.Turtle]

The Rebellion would probably more be similar to a single person (or a small group of people) rebelling against the US.
After all: He(They) has ZERO Chance of winning in a direct fight.
However:
He(they) COULD assassinate the President.

[Master of Ossus]

The Rebellion would probably more be similar to a single person (or a small group of people) rebelling against the US.
After all: He(They) has ZERO Chance of winning in a direct fight.
However:
He(they) COULD assassinate the President.

It is more like the situation at Waco, Texas, with the Branch Dividians, only not as well armed.

[Guest]

The Rebels in a Modern USA situation would probably resemble a Tank Battalion and an infantry brigade compared with the entire US Military. They would have one battleship and a couple of smaller cruisers. Maybe even a Marine Corp Harrier Carrier.

In addition to this, there would be a lot of small local militia forces supporting the Rebels.

I think that is more accurate. The Rebels did have a larger number of ships at Endor (not including the DSII and their ships were generally inferior to the Empire's).

[Ghost Rider]

I'd actually say they were superior in some ways or at least on par.

Their starfighters certainly were better than most and until the TIE-Avengers...out-classed the Empire.

Seriously the Empire main strength was the the ISD was a superior craft and they had numbers to offset any minor advantage the rebels had.

[SirNitram]

Though many are quick to dismiss the Rebellion as tiny and insignifigant, try to remember this was a military power.

It is the equivalent of a tank battalion, with supporting state-of-the-art jet fighters(The X-wing was supposed to replace the TIE series), along with a naval group led by a fully recomissined battleship. On top of this direct military threat, you must factor in the militia and terrorist agents working under their banner. Finally, throw in a bunch of criminals who fly the Rebellion's flag for their doings.

They didn't control much territory, so it's hard to accurately portray that. You can't hide a battleship between two major cities, but that's what the Rebellion did, if you use this analogy.

[Master of Ossus]

Though many are quick to dismiss the Rebellion as tiny and insignifigant, try to remember this was a military power.

It is the equivalent of a tank battalion, with supporting state-of-the-art jet fighters(The X-wing was supposed to replace the TIE series), along with a naval group led by a fully recomissined battleship. On top of this direct military threat, you must factor in the militia and terrorist agents working under their banner. Finally, throw in a bunch of criminals who fly the Rebellion's flag for their doings.

They didn't control much territory, so it's hard to accurately portray that. You can't hide a battleship between two major cities, but that's what the Rebellion did, if you use this analogy.

Using this direct number-to-number comparison, the Empire would be more powerful than all of the militaries that histories have ever seen. Their numbers would be virtually infinite. Remember that an ISD represents no less than two full divisions, and the Empire has 25,000 of them plus all of their support craft, smaller ships, and ground personnel.

[SirNitram]

Though many are quick to dismiss the Rebellion as tiny and insignifigant, try to remember this was a military power.

It is the equivalent of a tank battalion, with supporting state-of-the-art jet fighters(The X-wing was supposed to replace the TIE series), along with a naval group led by a fully recomissined battleship. On top of this direct military threat, you must factor in the militia and terrorist agents working under their banner. Finally, throw in a bunch of criminals who fly the Rebellion's flag for their doings.

They didn't control much territory, so it's hard to accurately portray that. You can't hide a battleship between two major cities, but that's what the Rebellion did, if you use this analogy.

Using this direct number-to-number comparison, the Empire would be more powerful than all of the militaries that histories have ever seen. Their numbers would be virtually infinite. Remember that an ISD represents no less than two full divisions, and the Empire has 25,000 of them plus all of their support craft, smaller ships, and ground personnel.

I'm not suggesting a direct number-to-number comparison(Surely you don't think the Rebel army was only ONE tank division?!), not at all. I class the MC80's as Battleships, really.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Battleships by Mon Cal standards maybe.

The Star Destroyers really were destroyers. At least this is the explanation Saxton gives.

[Guest]

Battleships by Mon Cal standards maybe.

The Star Destroyers really were destroyers. At least this is the explanation Saxton gives.

The Imperial Star Destroyers are not "destroyers". Even using a modern navy analogy this does not make sense. ISD's and ISD II's are cruisers. Just because they have the word "Destroyer" in them doesn't classify them as destroyers.

[Vympel]

I was under the impression that 'star' was put in front of the name to signify that a 'Star' XXX is higher than XXX on its own.

[Darth Servo]

The Imperial Star Destroyers are not "destroyers". Even using a modern navy analogy this does not make sense. ISD's and ISD II's are cruisers. Just because they have the word "Destroyer" in them doesn't classify them as destroyers.

ISDs Cruisers? I thought the Air Craft Carrier/Battleship hybrid was the best comparison.

[starfury]

ISDs Cruisers? I thought the Air Craft Carrier/Battleship hybrid was the best comparison.

for the ability of the ISD to both be a capable combat vessel and hold fighters, it;s size however more qualifed it for being a ship in the cruiser range, it's quite a bit large for a mere destoryer, the victory-class, which is 900 meters long is more a true destoryer.

[Vympel]

They could be said to be like the Admiral Kuznetsov- they carry fighters but are more than capable of defending themselves and opening a can of whoopass in their own right.

[XaLEv]

The Imperial Star Destroyers are not "destroyers". Even using a modern navy analogy this does not make sense. ISD's and ISD II's are cruisers. Just because they have the word "Destroyer" in them doesn't classify them as destroyers.

Just because the definition of destroyer we use doesn't fit with ISDs, doesn't mean that they aren't destroyers under Imperial/Republican definitions.

[Guest]

They could be said to be like the Admiral Kuznetsov- they carry fighters but are more than capable of defending themselves and opening a can of whoopass in their own right.

I'm not familiar with the Admiral Kuznetsov class vessel. Please explain.

[Vympel]

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The Project 1143.5 Admiral Kuznetsov is currently the only aircraft carrier in the Russian Navy. It was launched in 1985. Its sister, the Varyag, was launched in 1988 but was never completed, and the hull (which has deteriorated to the point where it cannot be used for service) has been sold to China. It has a full load displacement of 65,000 tons. A third unit was planned, but was never laid down. The Kuznetsov was originally known as the Tbilisi, then the Leonid Brezhnev.

The flight deck area is 14,700m² and aircraft take-off is assisted by a bow ski- jump angled at 12°. The flight deck is equipped with arrester wires. Two starboard lifts carry the aircraft from the hangar to the flight deck.
The ship has the capacity to support 12 Su-33 air superiority fighters and a range of helicopters, including the Ka-27 and Ka-31.

The ship has a Granit anti-ship missile system equipped with 12 launchers. The Granit missile (SS-N-19 SHIPWRECK) has a range of 550km and a maximum speed of Mach 2.5.

Air defense is provided by the Klinok (SA-N-9 GAUNTLET) VLS air defense missile system, with 24 vertical launchers and 192 missiles, defending the ship against anti-ship missiles, aircraft and surface ships. The system has a multi-channel electronically steered phased array radar and can fire at a rate of 1 missile every 3 seconds. Four targets can be engaged simultaneously in a 60x60 degree sector. Range is 15km.

The Kashtan Gun/Missile System (SA-N-11 GRISON/ CADS-N-1), provides defense against precision weapons including anti-ship and anti-radar missiles, aircraft and small sea targets. Eight systems are fitted, combining missile launcher, twin 6-barrel 30mm guns and radar/optronic director. The range of the laser beam-riding missiles is from 1.5 to 8km. One gun can fire up to 1,000 rounds per minute in the range 0.5 to 1.5km. The Kashtan is a navalized version of the 2S6M Tunguska system. Six AK-630 30mm CIWS-type guns are also fitted.

The ship is also equipped with an Udav-1 system with 60 rockets. Udav-1 protects surface ships by diverting and destroying incoming torpedoes. The system also provides defense against submarines and saboteur systems such as underwater vehicles. The system has 10 barrels and is capable of firing 111SG depth charge projectiles, 111SZ mine laying projectiles and 111SO diverting projectiles. The range of the system is up to 3,000m and the submarine engagement depth is to 600m.

The ship's radars include an air and surface target acquisition radar, a surface search radar, flight control radar, navigation radar, and four fire control radars for the Kashtan systems.

The ship's hull mounted search and attack sonar, operating in the medium and low frequency bands, is capable of detecting torpedoes and submarines. The anti-submarine warfare aircraft are equipped with surface search radar, dipping sonar, sonobuoys and magnetic anomaly detectors.
The ship is conventionally powered and has eight boilers and four steam turbines each producing 50,000hp, driving four shafts with fixed pitch propellers. The maximum speed is 29 knots, and the range at maximum speed is over 6,000km. The ship has a maximum range of 13,700km at a speed of 18 knots.
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A shameless post of my very own collation from various sources

In the modern naval context, the Kuznetsov poses a big threat to an opposing naval force- mainly because of its SHIPWRECK missiles. It is generously appointed with defensive armament- far more so than an American Nimitz class, with integral defensive measures against air, surface, missile, and submarine threats. It's Su-33 interceptors aren't capable of naval strike; but as a navalized version of one of the world's premier air superiority fighters- quite the credible extended air defense.

A Star Destroyer carries fighters, but like the Kuznetsov, they are not its primary armament. An ISD is a full threat in its own right (heavy dorsal turrets equivalent to SHIPWRECK), and is not a floating base for fighters in the manner of a US Nimitz-class.

[Illuminatus Primus]

*shrug*

Saxton believes the ISD fills the role of a destroyer roughly in the Imp. Navy.

It's really a troopship/picket carrier/cruiser/destroyer.

The Victory-class is pretty slow for a destroyer. Apparently it filled the same role the ISD has, but it was smaller and slower.

[starfury]

what is anybody's thought on the allegiance cruiser

[Spartan]

Well, looking at Dark Empire and some of the comics and video games, an ISD really is not that impressive. 1km versus numerous ships between 3-17.6 km long. No an ISD is indeed a detroyer analouge. Its the fleet work horse, just like destroyers are in modern surface navies. They are not truly carriers of troop ships. Mind you vitually all modern destroyers carry aircraft. During WW2 destroyers were some times used to land troops because of their high speed, manuverability, and ability to provide instant firesuppoert for raids. The ISD's jack-of-all-trades nature practically screams destroyer.

Seriously, the whole executer size debacle; has given us what are essentially for different classes: (2) 8km cruisers?, a 12.8 km battleship, and a 17.6 km commandship. Add to that the 10 km long Vengeance battlecruiser from JK.

Again look at Dark Empire the small 2.8-3.2 km vessels escorting the Eclipse those are cruisers, and ISD doesn't even come close.

Anything smaller than a VSD but but at least 450-meters is a Frigate. Ie. Dreadnaughts, Enforcers, Interdictors, and Strike cruisers. Anything smaller: Carracks, Lancers, etc. are corvettes.