The X-wing novels suck

[Quadlok]

You still don't get it. The central point is that Stackpole simply could not resist having a ruthless, mustache-twirling megalomaniac as an Imperial leader.

And neither could Lucas. So if that's such a problem for you, you're a Wars fan why?

BECAUSE THAT'S THE CENTRAL STORY, SHITBOX! IF YOU'RE GOING TO EXPAND THE UNIVERSE, THAN YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE THE SAME APED STEREOTYPES OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

Lets step back for a minute and think. The Emperor purposely filled many high ranking positions with sociopaths and megalomaniacs as a way of insuring they would be too busy going after each other to go after him. It would only make sense that his intelligence director would fit the pattern. Just because it may appear (and is) derivative of the movies doesn't mean it doesn't make sense under SoD.

And on the origional thread topic, I found the series quite enjoyable, as long as I ignored the strange belief the authors had that video games are an accurate portrayal of Star Wars.

[Stofsk]

8 KM 'Super' Star Destroyers. Even if you forget about scaling and going by what the canon movies go by, it's still idiotic to call it a Super Star Destroyer. The comics by Al Williamson and Archie Goodwin gave a name to Vader's flagship, and pointed out how it was the first ship of it's class. It should be an Excutor-class Star Something. Having both the Rebels and Imperials call it a Super Star Destroyer is embarassing.

If your attacking the X-Wing books because of this, then I suggest you go right ahead and flame any SW book that mentions SSDs. This is an error on the part of the authors taking WEG information. Its clear the SSDs they are describing are Executors. Besides, we've seen 3-5KM long ships described as SSDs before. Its a size distinction over your typicaly ISD and Mon-Cal sized ship.

Un-fucking-believable. You quoted me, so it must mean you actually READ what I wrote. But it's clear you didn't.

Hey genius, what did I write in the second sentence? "Even if you FORGET ABOUT SCALING AND GOING BY THE MOVIES..." The 8 KM figure doesn't matter to me all THAT much. I was attacking it for calling the Super Star Destroyer a 'super-class' vessel, when anyone could have researched it and called it an Executor-class vessel.

The 8 KM figure didn't figure more than a SENTENCE in my criticism.

IIRC X-wing laser cannons do kiloton level damage right? Or was that their proton torpedos? Either one, you wouldn't know it from these books, as you'd often have characters destroy something on the ground and it will be showed to be a small explosion that destroys the building but little else. Just saying "I'm turning the cannon power down to make strafing runs" would have been welcome, but no...

Once again your singling out the X-Wing series when this is a common theme in several of the books.

So? This thread is ABOUT the X-wing series, not about the rest of the EU or even the NJO. What the hell about this is so absurd? What kind of rebuttal is "The rest of the EU does this stupid shit too."?

The complete and utter bullshit anti-Imperial bias. Dear fucking god. I hate the Empire and I'm on the Rebel's side, but shit, there's a limit. When I read the TTT you see a skilful contrast and comparison between the two, but if you read the X-wing books then the Imperials are so irredeemably evil that only an idiot could ever support them, and the Rebels are so much better in comparison. Straight out of the Horse's mouth, Lara basically says "OMG, the Empire used a culture of fear on itself while these Rebels are sitting back joking and chilling out!"

All they do is paint a handful of people as evil, and do remember several of these people once worked directly for the Emporer himself. Did you notice how they tended to portray the ship commanders as having morals and integrity? If you read Solo Command you would never note that Solo works together with an Imperial Admiral in the hunt for Zsinji.

Admiral Trigit was called dishonourable by Lara Notsil, an Imperial agent. Corran's nemesis in the RS books was a treacherous snake, who only died because Isard was a bigger treacherous snake. Zsinj has a man executed for being a proficient pilot. The ISD captain who goes insane in the battle in Bacta War (please read Poe's comments). The interdictor captain commits treason. These are all off the top of my head.

Haven't read Solo Command, not sure I want to now. But all the examples I showed just now are Imperial commanders, admirals, and intelligence agents that show no morals or integrity.

And the books are being told from the Rebel side, so some anti-imperial bias is expected. However, not to the levels in which the X-wing books manage to make unreadable. The part where Lara Notsil decides the Rebels are fine people of upstanding moral character compared to the Imperials, who have a culture of fear going on, makes it unreadable.

The villains. For fuck's sake. This is what I alluded to in the above point, but it deserves it's own section. Zsinj has a crewman executed because he was disobeying orders, yet it was shown he was a proficient pilot. His solution was: test him to see if he's a worthy pilot, then execute him for disobeying orders. Yep. Right. That makes sense. Zsinj need to twirl a moustache, right there.

Just like Vader executing people who fail to accomplish orders that were impossible. I really like where your going with this.

Vader executed two people: an Admiral that fucked up, and a Captain that fucked up. The EU mentions that the former was an idiot to begin with. But those two are the only summarily executed subordinates under Vader's command.

And Zsinj killed the crewman NOT for being incompetent, which may have resulted in the failure at Hoth, or letting Solo escape, but for practicing PILOT MOVES. Granted, he should have been disciplined for doing it the wrong way - but the guy was shown to be proficient at piloting, and Zsinj made it sure that he would be given full testing to see if he was, and THEN executed for disobeying orders. Sorry, but this is just idiotic and wasteful. Either kill the fuck head or promote him to flight crew, but don't waste training - it's expensive.

And Isard? "Oh, I'll release a virus into Coruscant, because I'm Evil. With a capital E. And I'll torture Tycho and Corran, because I need to prove I'm EEEEEEvil. Just in case you haven't figured it out yet, I also slept with the Emperor, so I'm also a tremendous Slut too."

I guess you forgot the little bit where Isard was trying to bankrupt and splinter the New Republic from within with the Krytoss Virus.

Where the hell did I say that her plan lacked merit?

I was pointing out how the villains are arseholes and megalomaniacs. It's a repetitive theme throughout the X-wing novels. I want something else.

Jesus. Where is the Imperial version of the Desert Fox? The guy who the Rebels fought but without 'hate'?

So far you've encountered one insane inteligence director who took control of the Empire and one rather pompous Warlord. The X-Wing books actualy spend very little time dealing with the Empire itself directly, and when Allston does, he repeatedly shows examples of Imperial commanders who have integrity.

See above.

Ugh. So the EU sucks. I could have just believed that and chose not to waste tens of dollars on it. I still need to check out the Crispin trilogy, but right now I'm no longer holding out any hope.

The EU doesn't suck. Some authors are bad, some are good. You made blind statements about the X-Wing series and didn't even hit on everyones favorite gripe about it, Corran Horn the super hero.

"Blind statements" huh? Sure. I can be as snide and backhanded as you and say that you're an Allston fanwhore, but that wouldn't be fair, would it?

And I did mention Corran Horn, incidentally, he figured into my point about the series having superheros instead of grunts. But going after Corran Horn is a fucking cheap shot.

[Daltonator]

Hey Stofsk, have you read Starfighters of Adumar? I think you'd like it. It's an Allston book and deals with four old-school Rogue Squadron vets (Wedge, Tycho, Janson, Hobbie).

[Alan Bolte]

I could never figure out that book. I mean, he puts in something so painful to think of as the blaster you have to hit someone with, and then he has one of the main characters say 'WTF, a blaster you have to hit someone with.' And I remember finding every description of flight painful in some way. Mind you, it's been years.

[Stofsk]

Hey Stofsk, have you read Starfighters of Adumar? I think you'd like it. It's an Allston book and deals with four old-school Rogue Squadron vets (Wedge, Tycho, Janson, Hobbie).

I'm somewhat apprehensive in doing so, as the Wraith Squadron books have been a tremendous disappointment. Some people forgot or didn't read how I went into the books on Allston's side, expecting good things. They don't seem to understand my being disappointed with the books, as opposed to being needlessly harsh in my criticism. On that level, it's made me disillusioned with the EU. I don't know who and what to trust now. AC Crispin's trilogy is the only major, Bantam era trilogy left untested and untried, and that's it. The rest would be the NJO.

Oddly enough, I've heard some no-shit favourable recommendations on the NJO.

[JediMaster415]

Personally, I liked all nine X-Wing books. They even inspired me to write a fanfic series about X-Wing pilots.

The books all helped explain something. It explained how the Rebellion grabbed Coruscant and the hunt for Zsinj. Everything else was, more or less, just 'the misadventures of X-Wing jocks.'

[Connor MacLeod]

Gotta agree with you. There's a couple of nice passages, but these books by and large showcase the worst of the EU.

The Crystal Star, followed by Children of the Jedi, are both far worse novels. There's also Dark Journey and Traitor, both of which are so uninteresting that I barely touch them now. Traitor is perhaps the only SW novel I can think of aside from the Crystal Star that I might actually detest.) By comparison, the X-wing novels are more enjoyable (although Allston's novels are superior to Stackpole's.)

Bacta War, we have an ISD Captain go stark raving insane as he begins to lose the battle. Wraith Squadron was possibly the worst in this regard.

Drysso was an idiot, yes. Its a repetition of similar stupidity we've had to rationalize in the canon as well, though.

The Duke Boys fool an ISD into thinking they're the Millennium Falcon, making it stray from its primary mission goal. Even though that ISD has numerous support craft like assault shuttles and TIE fighters to check on this secondary concern.

Sorry, this isn't even remotely bad compared to anything in COTJ or Crystal Star. Or the JAT for that matter.

Now, if you want something to criticize in the X-wing novels, try Stackpole's claim that a truck moving at around 60 km/hr could take out full-powered, doubled up X-wing shields. Or that laser cannons are "kilojoule" range.

Then we have that idiotic scene where Wedge has a Correlian Corvette pointed "up" at an ISD's belly, using the engines to kick up a dust cloud from the moon below it so the ship can't be seen visually, while free to fire directly on the ISD. The ISD commander would rather sit right over the moon and do absolutely nothing while being blasted to pieces by Wedge and his amazing supercommandos. Its amazing that Wedge knows the Imps will be too stupid to TARGET THE BILLOWING DUST CLOUD.

Somewhat annoying, but again it pales in comparison to other novels (again see above for Stackpole's far greater technical incompetence.)

Frankly, I consider the best judge to be how both Allston and Stackpole handled their respective duologies in the NJO - whose do you think was better? I think Allston's was (although the whole "Force-inspired field trip to Coruscant" was a stupid plot.)

[Alyeska]

Blah

You know what, I was half way through writing my response to you when I noticed you actualy went and quoted my name for every single bloody section making it rather difficult to simply respond to you piece by piece. Seeing as I don't especialy care about this debate and I am too damned lazy to fix your formating, I'm just calling it quits.

[Connor MacLeod]

Un-fucking-believable. You quoted me, so it must mean you actually READ what I wrote. But it's clear you didn't.

Hey genius, what did I write in the second sentence? "Even if you FORGET ABOUT SCALING AND GOING BY THE MOVIES..." The 8 KM figure doesn't matter to me all THAT much. I was attacking it for calling the Super Star Destroyer a 'super-class' vessel, when anyone could have researched it and called it an Executor-class vessel.

The 8 KM figure didn't figure more than a SENTENCE in my criticism.

Doesn't really change the point of his argument. You're singling out the X-wing novels for a mistake that has occured repeatedly through canon. Its something that goes back to WEG, not the author. Furthermore, you go on to assume that the author somehow has absolute creative control over his work and would not be forced to change or alter his conclusions based on the suggestions or demands of censors, editors, continuity people, etc.

This is that same inane bullshit where Luceno got blamed for naming the Executor a "STar Dreadnought" without proof.

So? This thread is ABOUT the X-wing series, not about the rest of the EU or even the NJO. What the hell about this is so absurd? What kind of rebuttal is "The rest of the EU does this stupid shit too."?

And so what the fuck is the problem about Alyeska's statement, then? Is there some sort of moratorium in bringing up the OTHER Star Wars novels, especialyl when there aer others that are justafiably worse?

Or does that somehow detract from this little bitchfest you apparently seem determined on having?

Admiral Trigit was called dishonourable by Lara Notsil, an Imperial agent.

Because he was selfishly abandoning his ship and his crew to save his own skin. He didn't even tell them to abandon ship.

Corran's nemesis in the RS books was a treacherous snake, who only died because Isard was a bigger treacherous snake.

So? In the canon radio dramas, Motti is a treacherous snake who attempted to persuade Tarkin into rebelling against the Emperor. Lord Tion ended up giving away the existence of the Top Secret Death Star project because he couldn't keep his fucking pants on. Your point being?

Zsinj has a man executed for being a proficient pilot.

Was this in "Iron Fist"? If so, then it was because he was flying simulator missions while on duty. IE not doing what he was supposed to, even though he was ordered at least ONE time prior not to do that. Dereliction of duty and disobeying orders? Vader's executed people for far less. And there was nothing suggestive about the ensign actually being a proficient pilot.

The ISD captain who goes insane in the battle in Bacta War (please read Poe's comments).

Already commented on this.

The interdictor captain commits treason.

Which one? The Black Asp/Corusca Rainbow? (the one with the female captain?) Heaven forbid! Some Imperial officer defected to the Rebellion! We've never seen that happen before...

These are all off the top of my head.

Doesn't really speak well for the quality of your memory, then.

Haven't read Solo Command, not sure I want to now. But all the examples I showed just now are Imperial commanders, admirals, and intelligence agents that show no morals or integrity.

Hello? Your examples have to be both accurate and relevant to have any point. Frankly, I found the way Allston portrayed Zsinj and Melvar to be far superior to how he was portrayed in the WEG materials AND Courtship of Princess Leia. Zsinj in the X-wing novels was a very likable character, even for an Imperial.

And the books are being told from the Rebel side, so some anti-imperial bias is expected.

Actually thats only one of the SoD-inspired rationalizations for some of the apparent inconsistencies or oddities in the EU novelizations (or in other words, ,an excuse to ignore it on the basis of bias.)

However, not to the levels in which the X-wing books manage to make unreadable.

Even Stackpole's work, which I tend to dislike grreatly, is far more readable compared to say, Traitor, which I read in a day mostly by skimming through nearly 2/3 of the book out of sheer boredom.

The part where Lara Notsil decides the Rebels are fine people of upstanding moral character compared to the Imperials, who have a culture of fear going on, makes it unreadable.

Or, maybe you're just a disgrunteld Empire-wanker/apologist. Frankly, I'm not sure what the deal is, but you have a real axe to grind with the X-wing novels. Maybe its just another "Lets bash the EU cuz everyone does so" wankfest.

Vader executed two people: an Admiral that fucked up, and a Captain that fucked up. The EU mentions that the former was an idiot to begin with. But those two are the only summarily executed subordinates under Vader's command.

At least two. There are others. In fact, Vader's flagship is known as a fast-track to promotion because of the attrition rate among its officers.

There was also Admiral Greelanx who was executed by Vader in "Hutt Gambit" for simply following what he believed to be orders.

And Zsinj killed the crewman NOT for being incompetent, which may have resulted in the failure at Hoth, or letting Solo escape, but for practicing PILOT MOVES. Granted, he should have been disciplined for doing it the wrong way - but the guy was shown to be proficient at piloting, and Zsinj made it sure that he would be given full testing to see if he was, and THEN executed for disobeying orders. Sorry, but this is just idiotic and wasteful. Either kill the fuck head or promote him to flight crew, but don't waste training - it's expensive.

REad above. And the person he killed was a fucking ENSIGN. A guy who commands an entire Oversector and a substantial portion of the galaxy can afford to lose a single Ensign/pilot. He can't afford to have someone get away with disobeying an order or ignoring his other duties.

Where the hell did I say that her plan lacked merit?

I was pointing out how the villains are arseholes and megalomaniacs. It's a repetitive theme throughout the X-wing novels. I want something else.

You apparently want an excuse to carry on with your popularity-enhancing EU bashing. I find it amusing that some people will in one breath criticize the EU as a whole (or even in part) but if someone else (say Darkstar) does it, they throw a fit.

Yes, its a fact that the EU is riddled with errors, and yes, they have to be rationalized and/or dismissed when neccessary. I fail to see where "bitching about it incessantly" fits in, though.

"Blind statements" huh? Sure. I can be as snide and backhanded as you and say that you're an Allston fanwhore, but that wouldn't be fair, would it?

Gee, by your definition, I must be an Allston fanwhore too. In such a case, you can go take your Empire-wanking and go fuck yourself.

And I did mention Corran Horn, incidentally, he figured into my point about the series having superheros instead of grunts. But going after Corran Horn is a fucking cheap shot.

Corran Horn IS an annoying and rather shitty character. Not only does nothing ever truly bad happen to him, but what few flaws he does have tend to be superficial and quickly corrected. About the only time Corran Horn is NOT an annoying character is when Stackpole is NOT writing him (IE, "Star by Star")

[Connor MacLeod]

Which is why Donos is shown to be practicing his sniping in both Wraith Squadron and Iron Fist and Grinder slices into the Fondor space dock for practice. Flight sims have gratuitious mention. they don't just let their skills stagnate.

Plus it's even pointed out that most of them are medicore at piloting, by Wedge, Janson and Phanan.

They do a good deal of mentioning the flight sims, and that they do it alot, which should give you an idea of how much time if not more, they should invest in the flight sims to hone their skills. To add ontop of that the practice time they'd need to hone their commando skills, you'd run out of hours of the day.

And it's shown that they do get sloppy, such as Castin Donn in IF underestimating Zsinj's security and the whole team getting caught by a factories security in WS.

I don't deny that Allaston introduced a certain amount of realism in respects to who died and how many times the team gets compermised.

I'm not saying they're perfect at both, it's clear that they're not, but i am saying that it is useful to have a second set of skills that may come in useful if the op goes tits up.

Its usefull to have a second set of skills, as long as managing those skills doesn't make you lax at your primary skill set. In the Wraiths, you have two primary skill sets that are competing for time and there isn't enough time in the day to practice both to adaquate levels.

It would be like being a high price defense attorney, working 12-14 hours a day there, then getting off and go on duty as a Doctor at the Emergency Room. How good a Doc are you going to be? How good of a Lawyer? Each job is very demanding, and you wouldn't have enough time a day to work/practice each job to make you a competent Doc/Lawyer.

This is worse compared to say, the "Jango Fett as super-soldier?" in the canon? If we believe AOTC and the post EP2 literature, he's got potential to be an: ace pilot, ground trooper, commando/special forces officer, ground vehicle driver/gunner, commander, etc..

For that matter, is it better than the "Top-ace fighter squadron that also make great if impromptu commandoes?" (IE Rogue Squadron?)

My impression was that the Wraiths were something of a compromise between special force/intelligence agents and pilots - they filled a very specialized role, and were not neccesarily as good as either extreme (in fact as I recall they were adequate but not spectacular pilots.) and were decent commandoes (although I don't think they were as good as say, Page's commandoes.) They were meant to be used in certain situations, and their "balanceed" training probably did leave something to be desired, but you can't really have everything. And even so, maybe it is a little unreasonable/impractical, but that aspect never really bothered me as much as Stackpole's portrayal of Rogue Squadron did.

For that matter, its simply a repetition of what we saw in the OT (Sending a smuggler and a former senator on a Special forces commando raid, or putting a gambler in charrge of a Starfightr force.)

[Stofsk]

Doesn't really change the point of his argument. You're singling out the X-wing novels for a mistake that has occured repeatedly through canon.

Yes, because I had just read the X-wing novels and decided to critique them. As... I said... in. the. OP.

Its something that goes back to WEG, not the author. Furthermore, you go on to assume that the author somehow has absolute creative control over his work and would not be forced to change or alter his conclusions based on the suggestions or demands of censors, editors, continuity people, etc.

So he said that the editors forced him to change it to Super-class Star Destroyer and 8 KM in length. Yes? Yes? Is that your point?

This is that same inane bullshit where Luceno got blamed for naming the Executor a "STar Dreadnought" without proof.

You're right, this is inane bullshit.

And so what the fuck is the problem about Alyeska's statement, then? Is there some sort of moratorium in bringing up the OTHER Star Wars novels, especialyl when there aer others that are justafiably worse?

Or does that somehow detract from this little bitchfest you apparently seem determined on having?

Nothing is WRONG with his statement, he's right actually. I'm curious why I should NOT feel irritated at the other EU samples for this flaw. Are you somehow suggesting that it's acceptable?

Your point being?

That Alyeska was claiming that there were some Imperials depicted with integrity and morality, and I was pointing out some countering examples. This is not difficult.

Was this in "Iron Fist"? If so, then it was because he was flying simulator missions while on duty. IE not doing what he was supposed to, even though he was ordered at least ONE time prior not to do that. Dereliction of duty and disobeying orders? Vader's executed people for far less. And there was nothing suggestive about the ensign actually being a proficient pilot.

No, Zsinj just decided to waste money on training him, then planned to have him executed for disobeying orders. Disciplining him is fine. Execution is a little permanent though.

How can this be interpreted as anything more than a megalomaniac villain and moustache twirler?

Which one? The Black Asp/Corusca Rainbow? (the one with the female captain?) Heaven forbid! Some Imperial officer defected to the Rebellion! We've never seen that happen before...

That was not the point. The point was Alyeska claimed some Imperials were depicted with integrity; treasonous officers go against that.

Note: I didn't say she was wrong to do so.

Hello? Your examples have to be both accurate and relevant to have any point. Frankly, I found the way Allston portrayed Zsinj and Melvar to be far superior to how he was portrayed in the WEG materials AND Courtship of Princess Leia. Zsinj in the X-wing novels was a very likable character, even for an Imperial.

He was detestable and quite the reverse. Feel free to think differently. Of course, Wraith Squadron looks good when compared next to WEG and the Courtship of Princess Leia. But since this thread started in relation to the X-wing books...

The part where Lara Notsil decides the Rebels are fine people of upstanding moral character compared to the Imperials, who have a culture of fear going on, makes it unreadable.

Or, maybe you're just a disgrunteld Empire-wanker/apologist. Frankly, I'm not sure what the deal is, but you have a real axe to grind with the X-wing novels. Maybe its just another "Lets bash the EU cuz everyone does so" wankfest.

I'm no Imperial apologist. I am on the side of the Rebels, actually. I always have been. As to 'having an axe to grind' about the X-wing novels, I had just read them and felt like commenting on them. So sorry for my impertinence.

At least two. There are others. In fact, Vader's flagship is known as a fast-track to promotion because of the attrition rate among its officers.

There was also Admiral Greelanx who was executed by Vader in "Hutt Gambit" for simply following what he believed to be orders.

There were more than two surely, and yet those two were the most prominent. I've already mentioned how I haven't read the Crispin trilogy. People seem to accuse me of lacking reading skills, yet apparently you missed that bit.

REad above. And the person he killed was a fucking ENSIGN. A guy who commands an entire Oversector and a substantial portion of the galaxy can afford to lose a single Ensign/pilot. He can't afford to have someone get away with disobeying an order or ignoring his other duties.

An officer is summarily executed, after training is wasted on him to determine if he could be a pilot. He deserved to be disciplined, but why is it people think getting this sort of extreme treatment is necessary?

You apparently want an excuse to carry on with your popularity-enhancing EU bashing. I find it amusing that some people will in one breath criticize the EU as a whole (or even in part) but if someone else (say Darkstar) does it, they throw a fit.

Yes, its a fact that the EU is riddled with errors, and yes, they have to be rationalized and/or dismissed when neccessary. I fail to see where "bitching about it incessantly" fits in, though.

This wasn't a generic EU-bashing thread, nor is it an attempt to increase my popularity here. My motive is irrelevant to the discussion.

Gee, by your definition, I must be an Allston fanwhore too. In such a case, you can go take your Empire-wanking and go fuck yourself.

Kindly go fuck yourself. That was strictly in reply to Alyeska, and not yourself. If you choose to take it personally, that is your prerogative, but it is not my problem. Alyeska implied my reading comprehension was lacking, in a snide and backhanded manner. I chose to reply with a proportionate response.

I repeat: I've never been an 'empire-wanker'. Nor was that apparent in this thread either. Nor have I EVER made a post that suggests otherwise.

Corran Horn IS an annoying and rather shitty character. Not only does nothing ever truly bad happen to him, but what few flaws he does have tend to be superficial and quickly corrected. About the only time Corran Horn is NOT an annoying character is when Stackpole is NOT writing him (IE, "Star by Star")

Agreed.

[Master of Ossus]

There are two main problems with the conception of the X-wing series (its execution was extremely iffy, also, but that's beside the point):
1. Try as they might, it simply does not make sense for a single squadron to be anywhere near as powerful as they make them out to be. Regardless of how good the Rogues and Wraiths are, they shouldn't be able to take on fleets and expect to win. They also shouldn't be sent on the kinds of missions that they take up (which is the real thing). Though they're obviously exceptional people, and they find some creative force-multipliers (some of which shouldn't work nearly as well as they do), the NR would never dispatch one squadron of starfighter pilots to do some of the things they do.

2. A squadron has too many people to keep track of and develop in a single book. Starfighters of Adumar is the only book in the series, so far, to address this issue by wittling things down to four pilots (admittedly in a HORRIBLY strained way). It doesn't exactly help that Stackpole's protagonist is one of the worst EU characters ever created, with EXTREMELY contrived limitations.

[Connor MacLeod]

Yes, because I had just read the X-wing novels and decided to critique them. As... I said... in. the. OP.

So its not difficult for you to admit that the error is not unique to the X-wing novels, and thus does nto make that particular critique in any way special! good to know. (I'll deal with the OP later.)

So he said that the editors forced him to change it to Super-class Star Destroyer and 8 KM in length. Yes? Yes? Is that your point?

My point is that its idiotic to blame the author for something when there are various OTHER factors at work in the production of the novel, some of which are not only beyond the control of the author, but some of which are very hostile to the sort of "details" you expect or want in a book (need I mention specific people?)

Nothing is WRONG with his statement, he's right actually. I'm curious why I should NOT feel irritated at the other EU samples for this flaw. Are you somehow suggesting that it's acceptable?

No, but I fail to see a reason in pointless EU bashing when it generally amounts to the same repetitive "problems" issued over and over again. Most of the time it degenerates into meaningless "me-tooing" bullshit and that's fucking annoying.

That Alyeska was claiming that there were some Imperials depicted with integrity and morality, and I was pointing out some countering examples. This is not difficult.

Yes it is, when you need to be corrected in your countering examples. Difficult for someone like me that is.

No, Zsinj just decided to waste money on training him, then planned to have him executed for disobeying orders. Disciplining him is fine. Execution is a little permanent though.

A rather subjective impression. Given the possible resource/recruitment base Zsinj can draw on, he can certainly afford to be selective, especially since the person in question is of relatively low rank and has a consistent demonstrated basis of not only disobeying orders, but neglecting his duties. Would you be so willing to be kind to someone who is neglecting duties of a parrticularily vital starship function?

How can this be interpreted as anything more than a megalomaniac villain and moustache twirler?

How about the fact he was warned once before? Execution for such mistakes is indeed harsh, but its not all that uncommon in the Imperial Navy, either. Zsinj made his reasoning clear about WHY he had the person executed. I fail to see where the flaw in that logic occurs (aside from the fact its inconvenient to you, that is.)

That was not the point. The point was Alyeska claimed some Imperials were depicted with integrity; treasonous officers go against that.

Note: I didn't say she was wrong to do so.

"treasonous" is a subjective impression. One person's traitor is another person's hero or comrade. She wasn't a "traitor" in the Rebel's point of view.

He was detestable and quite the reverse. Feel free to think differently. Of course, Wraith Squadron looks good when compared next to WEG and the Courtship of Princess Leia. But since this thread started in relation to the X-wing books...

I like how you switch from "complaints about Allston in particular" back to generalizing about the X-wing novels in general (attempting to drag Stackpole into the discussion when we're talking about Allston in particular.)

I'm no Imperial apologist. I am on the side of the Rebels, actually. I always have been. As to 'having an axe to grind' about the X-wing novels, I had just read them and felt like commenting on them. So sorry for my impertinence.

Ooooh.. sarcasm. I'm quaking in my sandals and khaki shorts.

There were more than two surely, and yet those two were the most prominent. I've already mentioned how I haven't read the Crispin trilogy. People seem to accuse me of lacking reading skills, yet apparently you missed that bit.

No, you just apparetly consider your opinion to be superior to others, including people who have read virtually every EU novel out there (such as myself.)

An officer is summarily executed, after training is wasted on him to determine if he could be a pilot. He deserved to be disciplined, but why is it people think getting this sort of extreme treatment is necessary?

What "training?" Zsinj tells Melvar to take the ensign aside for pilot evaluation in the simulators. Just how expensive do you think it is to fucking run a simulator if he has already been doing it numerous times?

This wasn't a generic EU-bashing thread, nor is it an attempt to increase my popularity here. My motive is irrelevant to the discussion.

Quite the opposite, in fact. Its quite relevant, particularly when you appear interested in using invalid/inaccurate analogies and references to back it up.

Kindly go fuck yourself. That was strictly in reply to Alyeska, and not yourself. If you choose to take it personally, that is your prerogative, but it is not my problem. Alyeska implied my reading comprehension was lacking, in a snide and backhanded manner. I chose to reply with a proportionate response.

Gee, and by what you've been saying to me, I'd say he's right. You apparently think Zsinj ordered someone to go through complex pilot TRAINING before he was executed, even though he was simply put through a simulator-based pilot evaluation before being executed. Gee, that doesn't imply lack of comprhension in the slightest to me.

Of course, you might simply have forgotten that specific detail, but then you could just admit you forgot rather than attempting to cover up your error. So which is it?

[Connor MacLeod]

:
1. Try as they might, it simply does not make sense for a single squadron to be anywhere near as powerful as they make them out to be.

True, but this again goes back to the movies and alot of the other EU. Its equally impractical to have the same characters being thrown into a variety of situations over and over again and expect them to succeed. The real problem is that they're there because of name recognition - it sells because it has those main characters. Its impractical, but it is in a sense also a fundamental aspect of the Star Wars universe, and more often than not it has to be accepted and even rationalized.

Regardless of how good the Rogues and Wraiths are, they shouldn't be able to take on fleets and expect to win. They also shouldn't be sent on the kinds of missions that they take up (which is the real thing).

This is more applicable to Stackpole than to Allston, although the latter isn't completely innocent either (Mon Remonda vs SSD, although that isn't totally his fault again either, and as Wayne mentioned, the Implacable incident.) Allston usually manages to give the starfighters at least some minimal capital ship support (and as you read his later works, this generally improves.) On the other hand, you have Stackpole throwing a mere dozen or so fighters up against vessels as big as a VSD, which is bad. The Lusankya would be nearly as bad were it not for the ambiguity of "capital ship" missiles, but even there it still has problems.)

Though they're obviously exceptional people, and they find some creative force-multipliers (some of which shouldn't work nearly as well as they do), the NR would never dispatch one squadron of starfighter pilots to do some of the things they do.

In Wraith squadron's case, they're commandoes first and pilots second (rather than the other way around, which is stupid as you say). The fact they were found in "pilot schools" does not alter this IMHO (I imagine that they get pilots, officers, whatnot from all walks of life, like they always have.. again blame this on the movies.)

Impractical? Yes, I won't deny that. But then again, so is having Luke and Leia and Han do some of the shit they end up doing repeatedly (and often just as bad as what the Wraiths did, if not worse.) Same with the prequels (Jango fett, Anakin, etc.)

2. A squadron has too many people to keep track of and develop in a single book. Starfighters of Adumar is the only book in the series, so far, to address this issue by wittling things down to four pilots (admittedly in a HORRIBLY strained way). It doesn't exactly help that Stackpole's protagonist is one of the worst EU characters ever created, with EXTREMELY contrived limitations.

Actually STackpole tried this in I, Jedi too.. and that novel was admittedly better than alot of his prior work, although its still inferior IMHO to Allston's.

What's more, I'm generally more inclined to give Allston greater credit because he tended to show consistently better improvement in his later books (He moved away from the "Stackpole" perspective - witness again the difference between their NJO duologies. Stackpole, despite having redeemed himself somewhat with I, Jedi, proceeds to fall back into the same idiotic bullshit in the NJO. Allston's NJO books are not only different than his earlier Wraith squadron books, but were in fact superior. He also didn't have to make the Wraiths all-important and central figures in every single book either.)

Stackpole, like KJA, did better writing comics than he did novels, although agian that's not saying a great deal either.

[Stofsk]

My point is that its idiotic to blame the author

I'm sorry, I was BLAMING Allston? I thought I was critiquing the novels, not the novelist.

No, but I fail to see a reason in pointless EU bashing when it generally amounts to the same repetitive "problems" issued over and over again. Most of the time it degenerates into meaningless "me-tooing" bullshit and that's fucking annoying.

Then don't participate. Further, it was generally considered for WS to be an example of good EU, a preconception I had when reading the books. I didn't find them enjoyable, and decided to voice my displeasure.

Yes it is, when you need to be corrected in your countering examples. Difficult for someone like me that is.

Wait, Admiral Trigit was an example of integrity and morality? Lara Notsil the same? Zsinj? Isard?

A rather subjective impression.

As is your "I think Zsinj's characterisation is better in WS than in CoPL or WEG."

Given the possible resource/recruitment base Zsinj can draw on, he can certainly afford to be selective, especially since the person in question is of relatively low rank and has a consistent demonstrated basis of not only disobeying orders, but neglecting his duties. Would you be so willing to be kind to someone who is neglecting duties of a parrticularily vital starship function?

I've said repeatedly he should have been disciplined. I was in no way advocating being lenient or merciful. It's the execution part I have a problem with.

How about the fact he was warned once before? Execution for such mistakes is indeed harsh, but its not all that uncommon in the Imperial Navy, either.

And you for some reason object to my reasoning this as an example of megalomania?

Zsinj made his reasoning clear about WHY he had the person executed. I fail to see where the flaw in that logic occurs (aside from the fact its inconvenient to you, that is.)

He was made to look vindictive and cruel. He's the villain, but he isn't subtle.

"treasonous" is a subjective impression. One person's traitor is another person's hero or comrade. She wasn't a "traitor" in the Rebel's point of view.

Good for the rebels. She still committed treason against the Empire. From one POV, that means her integrity is in question.

I like how you switch from "complaints about Allston in particular" back to generalizing about the X-wing novels in general (attempting to drag Stackpole into the discussion when we're talking about Allston in particular.)

The title of this thread is "The X-wing books suck", so in which part of that statement do I say anywhere that the RS books are excluded?

Ooooh.. sarcasm. I'm quaking in my sandals and khaki shorts.

I don't care. You called me an Imperial apologist in a reactionary, knee-jerk manner, without justification. I've never given anyone that impression before.

No, you just apparetly consider your opinion to be superior to others, including people who have read virtually every EU novel out there (such as myself.)

Why, because I talk back when someone flames me?

Quite the opposite, in fact.

No, appeals to motive aren't relevant.

Gee, and by what you've been saying to me, I'd say he's right. You apparently think Zsinj ordered someone to go through complex pilot TRAINING before he was executed, even though he was simply put through a simulator-based pilot evaluation before being executed. Gee, that doesn't imply lack of comprhension in the slightest to me.

Of course, you might simply have forgotten that specific detail, but then you could just admit you forgot rather than attempting to cover up your error. So which is it?

Oh, I'm so sorry. It was actually a simulator and not full-fledged TRAINING. I forgot. Doesn't stop Zsinj being a megalomaniac with shitty characterisation.

[Connor MacLeod]

• Why do we have fighter jockeys on commando missions? Please, can SOMEBODY answer me this? This is a fault of ALL the X-wing novels, not just Allston's WS trilogy. Indeed, WS tries to make it sound more plausible by having Wedge form the group from misfits with commando experience. The RS books have no excuse. But why can't we have a SAS group instead, with the Rogues/Wraiths fighting alongside them but from the air? I don't know who the fuck he is, but Lieutenant Page is supposed to be a Rebel Commando. So why don't we SEE the Rebel Commandos, and let the fighter-jockey's fly their ships? It's irritating to see the writers try to make their fanwank characters into superheroes.

Yes, in the RS books this is inexcusable (especially since they generally don't have training.) And while its still a problem somewhat in the Allston novels, its not nearly as bad and does not detract frfom the overall books all that much the way Corran's nigh-invulnerability does.

In fact, as I mentioned, its got some precedence based on how the movies themselves are (unless you think its practical for a gambler to be a competent general and tactician, an smuggler and a diplomant to be able to command troops and to be able to conduct commando raids..)

[*]On that last point, I always thought that the X-wing books were supposed to show the GRUNTS of the Rebellion/Empire, books like the Thrawn Trilogy show the Big Guys, like GADM Mitt'hraw'nurodo and Jedi Knight Skywalker, or Counselor Organa, or Talon Karrde. All of them big leaders, and in some cases heroic and with freaky powers, or just simply talented. Why do the same fucking thing? Why is Wedge invincible? Corran a force-sensitive? Why is Nawara a lawyer? Maybe he should be in the JAG office and not Starfighter Command. Why is Face adept at interpersonal skills? Maybe he should be in Military Intelligence and play the spy. Why is Kell not in the Commandos? He's tough and strong, and adept at fighting, and piloting seems to be an ancilliary skill not his main one. Why is Myn Donos not a sniper? Instead he pilots a squadron, yet we are expected to believe he's ALSO a crackshot with a sniper rifle.

Again, ask yourself how a diplomat and smuggler can be expected to lead a commando raid, or a gambler to lead fighter wings or to be able to lecture a presumably experienced naval commander like Ackbar. Or how a 9-year old wonder boy can do all the shit Anakin did in TPM...

[*]IIRC X-wing laser cannons do kiloton level damage right? Or was that their proton torpedos? Either one, you wouldn't know it from these books, as you'd often have characters destroy something on the ground and it will be showed to be a small explosion that destroys the building but little else. Just saying "I'm turning the cannon power down to make strafing runs" would have been welcome, but no...

You mean like how LAAT guns and missiles are in the multi-ton/multi-kiloton range, yet don't look that wayh in the movies? Aside from the obvious "variable yields" bit, there's also a more distinct fact that it matters HOW the energy is delivered. An energy beam does not automatically create an explosion.

[*]The characters suck. Less so in WS, but that doesn't mean they're immune to criticism. Lara Notsil's personality crisis was just incomprehensible. "I'm Gara!... No, wait, Lara!... NO, I'm Gara! Who the fuck am I again? ARRGHHHHH!" Janson was good, but he's the only one I really liked. Kell smolders with generic rage. Myn Donos smolders with generic rage. Ton Phanon smolders with generic rage. Face smolders with generic rage. Tyria smolders with generic rage. Runt has multi-personality disorder. Corran is an arrogant dick. Tycho smolders with generic rage. UGH.

Matter of degree. The wraiths were supposed to be screw-ups, and having them without some sort of personal problem is going against the whole theme of the book. As Ossus said, it is problematic because you're trying to focus on an entire squadron at once, so you have to sacrifice depth for breadth. In a way, this is one of the appeals for me - none of the Wraiths generally were quite so "central" to the story the way Corran was key in every single one of Stackpole's novels (though Tainer initially came close, and Face was definitely coming close to that later. )

[*]The complete and utter bullshit anti-Imperial bias. Dear fucking god. I hate the Empire and I'm on the Rebel's side, but shit, there's a limit. When I read the TTT you see a skilful contrast and comparison between the two, but if you read the X-wing books then the Imperials are so irredeemably evil that only an idiot could ever support them, and the Rebels are so much better in comparison. Straight out of the Horse's mouth, Lara basically says "OMG, the Empire used a culture of fear on itself while these Rebels are sitting back joking and chilling out!"

Again, I disagree at least where Allston is concerned. I've pointed out the various "flaws" in the examples you mentioned as proof of this. Allston generally did a better job of portraying what was generally a throwawy villain from another novel as something other than a two-dimensional evil guy. In fact I rather enjoyed and liked Zsinj more after reading this. He did even better with Melvar (who prior to this was little more than a psychotic sadist.)

[*]The villains. For fuck's sake. This is what I alluded to in the above point, but it deserves it's own section. Zsinj has a crewman executed because he was disobeying orders, yet it was shown he was a proficient pilot. His solution was: test him to see if he's a worthy pilot, then execute him for disobeying orders. Yep. Right. That makes sense. Zsinj need to twirl a moustache, right there.

already dealt with this.

And Isard? "Oh, I'll release a virus into Coruscant, because I'm Evil. With a capital E. And I'll torture Tycho and Corran, because I need to prove I'm EEEEEEvil. Just in case you haven't figured it out yet, I also slept with the Emperor, so I'm also a tremendous Slut too."

Isard's a lunatic and little more than intent on bringing "everything down around her" in revenge for Palpatine's death. In short, she's motivated by little more than revenge. But more to the point, she serves as Palpatine's faithful attack dog (and Palpatine as we learn, was deliberately sowing chaos and duestruction post-Endor to suit his own purposes. Isard's actions simply reflect yet another aspect of this.)

[Stofsk]

Connor, you may or may not choose to believe this, but your last reply is what I wanted for this thread. Contrary to the disparaging remarks you initially said about me, being a 'EU basher' and 'Empire-wanker' and what have you, I did not start this thread for the sole purpose of knocking Allston and the X-wing books. If so I would have simply put in a single sentence post in the Venting thread and have been done with it. But I had hoped that this thread would provoke some discussion.

I'm too busy right now to reply, but there are some points in which I agree with you and other points where I don't, but generally speaking I didn't enjoy reading the books themselves. Take that as a subjective opinion then.

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm sorry, I was BLAMING Allston? I thought I was critiquing the novels, not the novelist.

The quality of the novel is a reflection on the author. Why did you think KJA was so grreatly disliked, exactly?

Then don't participate. Further, it was generally considered for WS to be an example of good EU, a preconception I had when reading the books. I didn't find them enjoyable, and decided to voice my displeasure.

All well and good. Then why did you get offended when someone critiqued your critique? If you were simply expressing an opinion then there's no reason to have to defend it or attempt to cover up the flaws in your argument.

Wait, Admiral Trigit was an example of integrity and morality?

No, but I'm not the one who complained about him being labeled "dishonorable" by Petothel. His selfish actions were what branded him as dishonorable, unless you think its okay to sacrifice your ship and crew to save your own skin.

Lara Notsil the same? Zsinj? Isard?

Again, an example to who, and by whose standards? Republic/Rebel? Imperial? I love how you continually attempt to draw me into defining a subjective issue like "integrity and morality" in a particular way.

As is your "I think Zsinj's characterisation is better in WS than in CoPL or WEG."

Not really. For one thing, Zsinj wasn't even really given much of a role or even really defined as a character in CoPL, and very little in WEG either. Allston managed to make him more of a central character, and a more interesting one. I especially like the fact how he turned out in Solo Command, which contradicts the impression given in CoPL.

I've said repeatedly he should have been disciplined. I was in no way advocating being lenient or merciful. It's the execution part I have a problem with.

Then you should also have a problem with Vader, with the Emperor, with Thrawn, etc.

And you for some reason object to my reasoning this as an example of megalomania?

Yes. How is it megalomania to execute an officer for a clear infraction of regulations? Especially when it is not the first time he has done so?

He was made to look vindictive and cruel. He's the villain, but he isn't subtle.

No more vindictive than Thrawn or Vader, which is to say, not very.

Good for the rebels. She still committed treason against the Empire. From one POV, that means her integrity is in question.

So did General Madine. So did Princess Leia. So did Han Solo. So did Mon Mothma. So did Vader. So did Biggs Darklighter. Need I continue?

The title of this thread is "The X-wing books suck", so in which part of that statement do I say anywhere that the RS books are excluded?

The partts where you alternate between complaining about Allston in paritcular and complaining about the X-wing books as a whole.

I don't care. You called me an Imperial apologist in a reactionary, knee-jerk manner, without justification. I've never given anyone that impression before.

Fine, I can certainly withdraw that allegation without problem. I apologize for unfairly calling you an Imperial apologist.

Why, because I talk back when someone flames me?

Correction, I corrected yoru errors AND flamed you for your foolishness. There's a difference. Particularily when you were going off somewhat unfairly on Alyeska too.

No, appeals to motive aren't relevant.

Uh huh. Might be true if I were focusing SOLELY on your motives, which I am not. In fact if anything, the motive issue is peripheral at best.

Oh, I'm so sorry. It was actually a simulator and not full-fledged TRAINING. I forgot. Doesn't stop Zsinj being a megalomaniac with shitty characterisation.

Sure its relevant. You were bitching about Zsinj wasting time and effort and money on training someone and THEN executing them. I'm sorry, did the apparent 'waste' you considered it to be suddenly become unimportant?

Oh yes, and by your logic, I suppose Vader was equally "megalomanical" simply because he ordered holonet/hyperwave communications with his entire starfleet in TESB, even though it exposed his ships to unneccecssary and wasteful damage in that asteroid field (they have to lower shields to conduct holonet/hyperwave communications, after all.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Connor, you may or may not choose to believe this, but your last reply is what I wanted for this thread.Contrary to the disparaging remarks you initially said about me, being a 'EU basher' and 'Empire-wanker' and what have you, I did not start this thread for the sole purpose of knocking Allston and the X-wing books.

What I did was apparently no worse than how you reacted to Alyeska, and that is parttly why I am being so "disparaging" as you put it. I read Alyeska's response, and while not exactly "nice guy" (not that it needs to) it did not warrant the sort of response you gave him. That alone did a great deal to reinforcing the so called "disparagement" you accuse me of. So maybe you should re-examine how you reacted to Alyeska before you criticize me about my response.

As for my comments, I can and do apologize for unfairly calling you an EU-basher or "Empire-wanker".

If so I would have simply put in a single sentence post in the Venting thread and have been done with it. But I had hoped that this thread would provoke some discussion.

Again, judging by your particular comments towards Alyeska, you were apparently looking for a particular "kind" of discussion, not a completely objective one. That may not have been what you intended, but that is what I certainly read into your comments, and hence, my response.

I'm too busy right now to reply, but there are some points in which I agree with you and other points where I don't, but generally speaking I didn't enjoy reading the books themselves. Take that as a subjective opinion then.

That's your opinion. If you didn't like them, maybe you'd like "Republic commando: Hard Contact" or "Jedi Trial" better. Both generally feature much better applications of commando/small scale military engagements than the X-wing novels do.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Again, ask yourself how a diplomat and smuggler can be expected to lead a commando raid, or a gambler to lead fighter wings or to be able to lecture a presumably experienced naval commander like Ackbar. Or how a 9-year old wonder boy can do all the shit Anakin did in TPM...

That goes into Stofsk's point. Yes, the Main Characters of Star Wars are very irrealistically uber. I've seen some of their RPG stats, and I don't know whether to complain first about how irrealistically uber the stats were, or the fact that they have to be so irrealistically uber just for them to semi-realistically survive the shit the authors keep putting them through.

The idea of something like the X-Wing series is to get away from that uberness. If you just want uber characters then summon Luke and Co again. So here we think we can start to see ordinary people. But no, they are just expanding the New Republic's Uber-complement. That's not cool.

[UCBooties]

Ok, Stofsk, I'm going to cement my reputation as an EU fanwhore with this post, but here goes. We get it. You don't like the EU. You have made this abundantly clear before. Now you have started a thread in order to belabor your point further, albeit with a specific focus this time out. So the point is made, the books are inconsistent, contain brainbugs, and yes, some are atrosciously written (a noteworthy portion in fact). But despite these glaring problems. Some of us just like them. We enjoy them, not because we need to suck down every single peice of continuity and cannon, but because we enjoy reading them. If you don't like them, well we can chalk it up to taste, maybe yours is better than mine, and it's a shame we don't have somthing in common. But despite your protestation to the contrary, this does seem, for all intent and purpose, just another excuse to trash on somthing you don't like. I can't see the merit in forcing people to defend their tasted in reading material because you don't share it. Your critique was phrased as flamebait, and you have succeeded in drawing out the EU fans for another round of flaming on both sides. Still, the point remains that the EU reading is just a matter of preference and you went into this looking for a fight with those who have a different preference than your own. Let it go, your opinion on the EU is now abundantly clear. You don't like it and you don't have to. So let it go, or rant in the designated forums if you must. But this was pointless mongering.


...Ok I'm done. Go ahead and flame me now.

[Connor MacLeod]

That goes into Stofsk's point. Yes, the Main Characters of Star Wars are very irrealistically uber. I've seen some of their RPG stats, and I don't know whether to complain first about how irrealistically uber the stats were, or the fact that they have to be so irrealistically uber just for them to semi-realistically survive the shit the authors keep putting them through.

The idea of something like the X-Wing series is to get away from that uberness. If you just want uber characters then summon Luke and Co again. So here we think we can start to see ordinary people. But no, they are just expanding the New Republic's Uber-complement. That's not cool.

Which is different from the movies/other canon how? If anything, its worse for these errors to be cropping up in canon than it is in the EU, yet its the EU that gets crapped on (when ironically a good many things that help Star Wars have typcially come from the EU.) Particuarily when "uber characters" is in fact one of the recurring and annoying themes that occurs in Star Wars - why would you expect people to get "away" from that (particularily when its the uber characters that probably contribute to the financial well-being of LFL?)

[Illuminatus Primus]

This is worse compared to say, the "Jango Fett as super-soldier?" in the canon? If we believe AOTC and the post EP2 literature, he's got potential to be an: ace pilot, ground trooper, commando/special forces officer, ground vehicle driver/gunner, commander, etc..

This is silly. We know Kaminoan cloning does not use standard flash-imprinting, and we know standard Kaminoan clone psychology (extreme obedience to Republic and to Jedi commanders) is definitely not characteristic of the template, so why would one feel that Jango Fett's experience and psychology has anything to do with his suitability as a genetic template?

The only case where this applies is the presumed similarity for the mission profile of Advanced Recon Clone troopers and Fett's bounty hunter career and more importantly, his career as a Mandalorian mercenary as depicted in Open Seasons - which he was first - since Fett trained the ARCs personally and they evidentally had Jango's genetic personality predispositions left untouched. In fact, the revealed truth that the ARCs were unique because their genetic psychological predispositions were left untouched is a definitive argument against the fact that Jango's experience must have made him an ideal template across the board for all of his clones since we already know his personality predispositions were typically altered (this argument applies even in purely filmic canon terms giving that the clones were said to be more docile and that Boba Fett was specifically ordered unaltered).

In the end the only things which were important were general physical advantages for soldiers, pilots/drivers, commanders, and gunners. A myriad of physical fitness attributes, keen reflexes, excellent eyesight, significant intelligence, mental predisposition toward improvisation, etc. many of these things can be applied across the board in a branch of the military. The specifics, such as small unit commanders, strategic commanders, piloting, gunnery, driving, sniping, and foot soldiery is all ingrained by training and education, all of which is almost totally independent of Jango and his genes.

[Publius]

Regarding Mr. Allston's use of characterization, it is important to remember that Mr. Allston himself has described Admiral Apwar Trigit as being "not as bright as he thinks he is." Trigit's vanity -- hubris, one might say -- is not an unprecedented flaw for a character to have. It is this very egocentricism that causes him to make the poor decisions which ultimately lead to his defeat by inferior forces. The novel itself establishes Trigit's frivolity -- he is said to have designed new uniforms for his crew. This does make him something of a weak villain, but it is important to remember the context: Trigit is not meant to be a powerful villain, but rather an early obstacle which Wraith Squadron is meant to overcome.

The Imperial Warlord Zsinj's portrayal by Mr. Allston is superior to that of other authors. West End Games and Mr. Wolverton provided him with no distinguishing characteristics; he is merely one among countless ambitious would-be princelings who happens to possess the military hardware to attempt to realize his grandiose dreams of empire. Mr. Allston provides Zsinj with a personality, revealing in him a character with a fine sense of the ridiculous, who wears a grand admiral's uniform not out of self-indulgence but rather to cultivate an image of himself as a foppish egotist, encouraging others to underestimate him. At the same time, Zsinj is creative and audacious, characteristics generally not found among the Expanded Universe's Imperials (who are generally unimaginative characters resorting to sheer firepower). Zsinj is also unusual in that he appears to have a genuine friendship with Melvar, something that most Imperials are not shown to have.

It is true that Zsinj's approach to dealing with the delinquent junior officer is draconian, but he is at the same time a product of the Galactic Empire, an authoritarian institution that tends toward the draconian in all that it does. This is the same organization that put an as yet undetermined number of people to death simply for having come into contact with a pair of automata which might have contained sensitive information (remember that it was only assumed that the Princess Leia had hidden the Death Star plans in the escape pod -- there was no proof of the fact). Summary execution has been seen in use by any number of Imperials -- Lord Vader, Grand Admiral Thrawn, High Inquisitor Tremayne, &c. -- and the fact that Zsinj chose to execute a junior officer with a known record of skylarking while on duty and disobeying lawful orders rather reflects the harsh discipline of the Imperial Navy whence Zsinj came than anything else.

As Connor MacLeod has pointed out, Mr. Allston did a tremendous amount to flesh out the character of General Melvar, who had hitherto been depicted as no more than a sadist, which is very much more the "mustache-twirling villain" that Stofsk seems to detest. Melvar is given a personality and a sense of humor, and is also portrayed as having an actual friendship with Zsinj.

As far as Imperial characterization is concerned, Mr. Allston is one of the stronger authors of the Expanded Universe. Zsinj and Melvar have a very clear motivation for their actions throughout the books (viz., self-preservation), as opposed to characters like Gilad Pellaeon, Mitth'raw'nuruodo, Daala, or Ysanne Isard, who are all rather static characters and have very little in the way of actual personalities. Indeed, if one is to discuss these characters in terms of personality rather than in terms of rank or accomplishment, what can be said to distinguish them? The question that should be asked when evaluating any portrayal of a character should be "what is he like?" or "who is he?" rather than "what does he do?"

[Knife]

This is worse compared to say, the "Jango Fett as super-soldier?" in the canon? If we believe AOTC and the post EP2 literature, he's got potential to be an: ace pilot, ground trooper, commando/special forces officer, ground vehicle driver/gunner, commander, etc..

For that matter, is it better than the "Top-ace fighter squadron that also make great if impromptu commandoes?" (IE Rogue Squadron?)

My impression was that the Wraiths were something of a compromise between special force/intelligence agents and pilots - they filled a very specialized role, and were not neccesarily as good as either extreme (in fact as I recall they were adequate but not spectacular pilots.) and were decent commandoes (although I don't think they were as good as say, Page's commandoes.) They were meant to be used in certain situations, and their "balanceed" training probably did leave something to be desired, but you can't really have everything. And even so, maybe it is a little unreasonable/impractical, but that aspect never really bothered me as much as Stackpole's portrayal of Rogue Squadron did.

For that matter, its simply a repetition of what we saw in the OT (Sending a smuggler and a former senator on a Special forces commando raid, or putting a gambler in charrge of a Starfightr force.)

Yes, its worse than that, unless you got some evidence that the 'gunship' pilots got out of their craft when they landed and dropped off troops, and commenced to fight in the battle on the ground.

The Clones were from the same templet, but some were obviously trained for various different jobs, IE. the pilots and vehicle drivers, not to mention the Commanders and SPHAT gunners/drivers, and the 'special commando's' mentioned in AotC's.

That every clone is not trained for all of these jobs actually shows what I'm talking about and that the Clones are not a good argument to show uberness of all military occupational specialties.