The X-wing novels suck

[Connor MacLeod]

This is silly. We know Kaminoan cloning does not use standard flash-imprinting, and we know standard Kaminoan clone psychology (extreme obedience to Republic and to Jedi commanders) is definitely not characteristic of the template, so why would one feel that Jango Fett's experience and psychology has anything to do with his suitability as a genetic template?

The only case where this applies is the presumed similarity for the mission profile of Advanced Recon Clone troopers and Fett's bounty hunter career and more importantly, his career as a Mandalorian mercenary as depicted in Open Seasons - which he was first - since Fett trained the ARCs personally and they evidentally had Jango's genetic personality predispositions left untouched. In fact, the revealed truth that the ARCs were unique because their genetic psychological predispositions were left untouched is a definitive argument against the fact that Jango's experience must have made him an ideal template across the board for all of his clones since we already know his personality predispositions were typically altered (this argument applies even in purely filmic canon terms giving that the clones were said to be more docile and that Boba Fett was specifically ordered unaltered).

In the end the only things which were important were general physical advantages for soldiers, pilots/drivers, commanders, and gunners. A myriad of physical fitness attributes, keen reflexes, excellent eyesight, significant intelligence, mental predisposition toward improvisation, etc. many of these things can be applied across the board in a branch of the military. The specifics, such as small unit commanders, strategic commanders, piloting, gunnery, driving, sniping, and foot soldiery is all ingrained by training and education, all of which is almost totally independent of Jango and his genes.

Your long-winded and apparently uninformed post aside, we do in fact know Jango Fett did indeed have a substantial hand in the training of not only the ARCs, but also the clone troopers and the commandos. Republic Commando: Hard Contact makes it clear that Jango "hand picked" the "best soldiers, tacticians, sappers, communicators, survival experts" to serve as commando instructors (and did so by Mandalorian traditions and methods, no less)

Furthermore, we know from the AOTC Visual Dictionary that Jango "helps train the troopers, knowing better than anyone how ot guide their development and impart military skills to the copies of himself." Moreover, he had a hand in designing at least some of their equipment, including the battle armor they war (based on his "combat experience", no less.)

In short, given that Jango apparently had substantial input into the training and equipment processes only reinforcecs the point I made above.

[Connor MacLeod]

Yes, its worse than that, unless you got some evidence that the 'gunship' pilots got out of their craft when they landed and dropped off troops, and commenced to fight in the battle on the ground.

The Clones were from the same templet, but some were obviously trained for various different jobs, IE. the pilots and vehicle drivers, not to mention the Commanders and SPHAT gunners/drivers, and the 'special commando's' mentioned in AotC's.

That every clone is not trained for all of these jobs actually shows what I'm talking about and that the Clones are not a good argument to show uberness of all military occupational specialties.

As I just pointed out, its made clear that Jango had substantial input into the training process of the clones (troopers, commandoes and ARCs) as well as into the equipment design.

And I need to point out that I was referring to Jango Fett as the uber-soldier. The clones were simply an illustration of my example.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Which is different from the movies/other canon how? If anything, its worse for these errors to be cropping up in canon than it is in the EU, yet its the EU that gets crapped on (when ironically a good many things that help Star Wars have typcially come from the EU.)

It isn't like we never complain about the canon. Just that the canon has the advantage of being the Definer Itself, so everything is kind of judged to its standard - admittedly giving it some protection.

Also, without the EU, even the main characters won't be that bad. Think about the main characters (in RPG language for a common reference). Think about, for instance, the farmboy Luke:

We saw that he has Blaster and a det of Lightsaber after he knew Obi-Wan, Repulsorlift Operations (he can drive his speeder), Starfighter Piloting and Gunnery (he was pretty good with the X-Wing, right), and a bit of Droid Programming and Repair (I'd say maybe WEG 3D worth based on what he did in the canon - nothing very complicated). These kinds of skills are at least somewhat believable given his background on a automated farm. I could even buy him knowing something about Astrogation and Alien species, seeing his desire to head to the Academy.

GG1 degraded this slightly, by giving him very high grades on things which he admittedly should know a little about. I'm sure Luke knows a little about fixing his airspeeder, but 7D (3D over a professional in WEG RPG language) in Repulsorlift Repair is pushing it, isn't it? And while he's pretty good with his fighter (which lucky for him has similar controls to his old T-16) and airspeeder, I really think 7D and 8D in those areas is pushing it.

But it is still nothing compared to the DESB's Monster Luke (never mind his increasingly uber Jedi powers), after the EU had their chance to write him in all kinds of wierd adventures:

Knowledge: Alien species 5D. bureaucracy 5D+2. intimidation 6D. languages 4D. planetary systems 5D+1, scholar 5D, streetwise 6D+1. survival 7D+2, value 5D, willpower 8D

Umm, umm, and you wonder why we diss the EU - the way this kind of thing creeps. You just provided another example of what happens. In canon, Jango started out as a very good bounty hunter whose physical musculature and mental aptitude was quite useful for most roles of a soldier. He seems to be left mostly alone in between needs to take samples from his body. Someone writing the EU ran off and made him an all-rounder (master of them all at that) that could train anyone who came to him and is even an equipment designer.

Particuarily when "uber characters" is in fact one of the recurring and annoying themes that occurs in Star Wars - why would you expect people to get "away" from that (particularily when its the uber characters that probably contribute to the financial well-being of LFL?)

Because they are not making the Big 7 anymore. One of the reasons I liked the BFC is because they actually gave me some believable characters and relatively believable battles. Abaht doesn't lead his people down to make commando raids against the Yevethan as well as being a Master Computer hacker while commanding his unit. They don't kill the thrustship shields after yakking how good they are by sending four X-Wings to hit them with 8 proton torps.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Your long-winded and apparently uninformed post aside, we do in fact know Jango Fett did indeed have a substantial hand in the training of not only the ARCs, but also the clone troopers and the commandos. Republic Commando: Hard Contact makes it clear that Jango "hand picked" the "best soldiers, tacticians, sappers, communicators, survival experts" to serve as commando instructors (and did so by Mandalorian traditions and methods, no less)

Ah, so he watched exercises and made observations and chose some instructors. Why is this unbelievable after knowing he is a a former leader of a large merc outfit? Isn't that something which a merc commander would be able to identify? Talent? Sorry, but being able to evaluate in exercise and wargame reviews who the best pilots, survivor experts, sappers, tacticians, soldiers, and communications specialists is just a function of reviewing statistics and applying past knowledge of combat to it and making selections accordingly. It does not require that he is personally best or particularly good at all at any of the above by any means. Just that he has experience at gruntwork and command, which he is said to have.

And you said:

This is worse compared to say, the "Jango Fett as super-soldier?" in the canon?

That distinction in this discussion would be irrelevent if you were not talking about the films, and the films definitely single out his genetic donation and the teaching by the Kaminoans. Last checked, Republic Commando: Hard Contact is not a film by George Lucas.

Furthermore, we know from the AOTC Visual Dictionary that Jango "helps train the troopers, knowing better than anyone how ot guide their development and impart military skills to the copies of himself." Moreover, he had a hand in designing at least some of their equipment, including the battle armor they war (based on his "combat experience", no less.)

Yeah, he's a former grunt merc and a former merc commander. How is this unrealistic or implying he must actually pilot fighters and gunships as well as the clone pilots, he must be as sneaky as the scouts, and skilled as the snipers, as adepts as the small unit commanders, or as efficient as the ground soldiers?

It doesn't. It just means he has combat experience as a soldier and an officer, which has already been stated.

In short, given that Jango apparently had substantial input into the training and equipment processes only reinforcecs the point I made above.

Ah, because he officially uses experience as a grunt, bounty hunter, and officer to make selections in instructors, help develop and implement the training curriculum and to make design choices in body armor, the canon implied he should be an ace pilot, superb commando, superb driver, superb gunner, skilled sniper, &c.?

Typical example of backpeddling and a non sequitur, to boot.

More:

As I just pointed out, its made clear that Jango had substantial input into the training process of the clones (troopers,

Wow, what a stretch for a former grunt.

commandoes

Wow, what a stretch for a former officer.

and ARCs)

Wow, what a stretch for a bounty hunter who obviously goes up against difficult odds and foes and uses skill and superior equipment to dominate combat.

as well as into the equipment design.

What a stretch for someone who was a grunt and is a bounty hunter wearing full-body hazard combat armor. Wonder if he knows what tools, accessories, and such a soldier might need. I wonder if Rob Wilson knows what kind of rifle with what kind of attachments he would prefer to be issued in the field.

And I need to point out that I was referring to Jango Fett as the uber-soldier. The clones were simply an illustration of my example.

Yes, so uber considering his stated background.

[Connor MacLeod]

It isn't like we never complain about the canon. Just that the canon has the advantage of being the Definer Itself, so everything is kind of judged to its standard - admittedly giving it some protection.

That's no protection at all. Canon screwups, including minimalism, uber-characters, and whatnot, ,still have to be reconciled just as much as EU screwups do.

What's more, many of the "screw ups" in the EU can be directly or indirectly tied to the canon (or the behind the scenes canon) - AT At dimensions, DS2 size (which is tied to production art rating it at 160 km), the "one million clone troops" from the EP2 novelization, the "thousands of systems" being a major threat to the Republic, TESB asteroid incident, etc.

Also, without the EU, even the main characters won't be that bad. Think about the main characters (in RPG language for a common reference). Think about, for instance, the farmboy Luke:

Right. You don't think its "that bad" that Lando Calrissian leading entire starfighter wings (over someone like say, Wedge Antilles) or dictating battle strategy to someonel ike Ackbar... or Jar Jar binks being made a "General", or Anakin the boy wonder, or a diplomat and smuggler leading commando missions. - is bad?

And that's not even getting into problems if we consider secondary canon sources - DK books, the novelizations, the scripts, and the radio dramas. A fair bit of which often tends to get ignored because someone doesn't like it (including among SW fans.)

We saw that he has Blaster and a det of Lightsaber after he knew Obi-Wan, Repulsorlift Operations (he can drive his speeder), Starfighter Piloting and Gunnery (he was pretty good with the X-Wing, right), and a bit of Droid Programming and Repair (I'd say maybe WEG 3D worth based on what he did in the canon - nothing very complicated). These kinds of skills are at least somewhat believable given his background on a automated farm. I could even buy him knowing something about Astrogation and Alien species, seeing his desire to head to the Academy.

GG1 degraded this slightly, by giving him very high grades on things which he admittedly should know a little about. I'm sure Luke knows a little about fixing his airspeeder, but 7D (3D over a professional in WEG RPG language) in Repulsorlift Repair is pushing it, isn't it? And while he's pretty good with his fighter (which lucky for him has similar controls to his old T-16) and airspeeder, I really think 7D and 8D in those areas is pushing it.

So... whats the point in using RPG stats, exactly?

But it is still nothing compared to the DESB's Monster Luke (never mind his increasingly uber Jedi powers), after the EU had their chance to write him in all kinds of wierd adventures:

Knowledge: Alien species 5D. bureaucracy 5D+2. intimidation 6D. languages 4D. planetary systems 5D+1, scholar 5D, streetwise 6D+1. survival 7D+2, value 5D, willpower 8D

Frankly that pales in comparison to "Dracula" Palpatine and his SUPERFREAKYDIMENSIONAL FORCE STORM UBER power.

Umm, umm, and you wonder why we diss the EU - the way this kind of thing creeps.

Because you like to pick and choose what you like and hate, rather than deal with it all as it comes? How is that supposed ot be a good thing, again?

Also, how does this excuse the fact that the very same crap (minimalism, uber-character,s etc.) still crop up in the canon, yet noone bitches about that? Particularily when some of the so-called errors in fact come from canon sources.

You just provided another example of what happens. In canon, Jango started out as a very good bounty hunter whose physical musculature and mental aptitude was quite useful for most roles of a soldier. He seems to be left mostly alone in between needs to take samples from his body. Someone writing the EU ran off and made him an all-rounder (master of them all at that) that could train anyone who came to him and is even an equipment designer.

I only cited *one* EU novel (and a rather well-written one in fact.) The primary reference I made was to canon - in this case, the AOTC Visual Dictionary. Not precisely EU, is it?

Again, why is it the EU is selectively cherry-picked when it comes to details but the canon is not? One minute its "cool and its apart of the SW universe" and another its "total bullshit" at best its inconsistent, and at worst its hypocritical.

Because they are not making the Big 7 anymore. One of the reasons I liked the BFC is because they actually gave me some believable characters and relatively believable battles. Abaht doesn't lead his people down to make commando raids against the Yevethan as well as being a Master Computer hacker while commanding his unit. They don't kill the thrustship shields after yakking how good they are by sending four X-Wings to hit them with 8 proton torps.

BFC had its own share of problems: Tiny starships. The NR being composed of a grand total of 11,000 systems and a fleet of a few thousand ships. The whole Luke Skywalker side trip.

I liked it too, but Alyeska put it best. The EU isn't crap. Its got its good points and its bad points. So does the canon. You take it all as you can and deal with it as best as possible. Why this necceasrily needs bitching about (which more often than not, as mentioned, is little more than me-tooing bullshit) is beyond me.

[Connor MacLeod]

Ah, so he watched exercises and made observations and chose some instructors. Why is this unbelievable after knowing he is a a former leader of a large merc outfit? Isn't that something which a merc commander would be able to identify? Talent? Sorry, but being able to evaluate in exercise and wargame reviews who the best pilots, survivor experts, sappers, tacticians, soldiers, and communications specialists is just a function of reviewing statistics and applying past knowledge of combat to it and making selections accordingly. It does not require that he is personally best or particularly good at all at any of the above by any means. Just that he has experience at gruntwork and command, which he is said to have.

Decided to bluster your way through my rebuttal ratehr than simply concede I see (sorta like you did with Nitram.) And picking those instrructors is also dependent upon his own experience and training (which is also covered in the AOTC visual dictionary reference, even though you won't admit that.)

And you said:

This is worse compared to say, the "Jango Fett as super-soldier?" in the canon?

That distinction in this discussion would be irrelevent if you were not talking about the films, and the films definitely single out his genetic donation and the teaching by the Kaminoans. Last checked, Republic Commando: Hard Contact is not a film by George Lucas.

Nice. Now maybe you can actually post the entire quote rather than just the convenient fragment you apparently want to twist to bolster your blustering:

This is worse compared to say, the "Jango Fett as super-soldier?" in the canon? If we believe AOTC and the post EP2 literature, he's got potential to be an: ace pilot, ground trooper, commando/special forces officer, ground vehicle driver/gunner, commander, etc..

In case your reading comprehension is not up to viewing the entirety of the quote, I bolded the relevant part. Now, you may recall I MENTIONED one bit of the canon literature, the EP2 VD. Of course, the Hard Contact novel isn't canon, but I decided to toss that in as an afterthought, since its simply additional evidence to support my example. Of course, you'll just continue your pattern of blustering through it without conceding the point.

Yeah, he's a former grunt merc and a former merc commander. How is this unrealistic or implying he must actually pilot fighters and gunships as well as the clone pilots, he must be as sneaky as the scouts, and skilled as the snipers, as adepts as the small unit commanders, or as efficient as the ground soldiers?

It doesn't. It just means he has combat experience as a soldier and an officer, which has already been stated.

Gee, we know he's a pilot (as per AOTC.) He hand-picked the combat instructors for the commandoes (who had to be trained in demolitions, sniping, and other duties) which demonstrates he must have sufficient knowledge and epxerience in such matters as to determine who to choose (much less choosing them according to Mandalorian traditions.) - If it was a simple matter of analyzing someone else' opinion of who was the "best" instructors, then there's no reason for him to "hand-pick" them. And he trained the ARC troops personally, which are at least as good if not better htan the commandoes (who are themselves better than the standard clone troopers.). And there's the bit about advising equipment design such as the armor (again based on his military experience.)

What it demonstrates (and which you will continue to bluster past) is that his experiencee is so varied and extensive that he can substantially contribute to many different aspects of the Clone trooper project (the commandos, the standard troops, the ARCs, etc.)

But go on, keep insisting that you really have a point. Its not the first time you've done so.

Ah, because he officially uses experience as a grunt, bounty hunter, and officer to make selections in instructors, help develop and implement the training curriculum and to make design choices in body armor, the canon implied he should be an ace pilot, superb commando, superb driver, superb gunner, skilled sniper, &c.?

Typical example of backpeddling and a non sequitur, to boot.

There you go, inventing fallacies again. What's next? Going to get pissed and start hurling insults too just because I don't buy your bluster? I've demonstrated my point, and provided evidence (which you haven't - you're just nitpicking the evidence I presented.) Concession accepted, as usual.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Decided to bluster your way through my rebuttal ratehr than simply concede I see (sorta like you did with Nitram.)

No, Martin simply cannot read. He just repeats himself over and over again.

Since you didn't have anything to contribute in that thread vis-a-vis my debate with him apart from bitching about me and my attitude (as if I give a shit since you're not a Mod and cannot and will not do anything about it), I'll just ignore these digressions from here on out, okeedokee?

And picking those instrructors is also dependent upon his own experience and training (which is also covered in the AOTC visual dictionary reference, even though you won't admit that.)

The clone army measures millions. You think he personally oversaw individuals in operation and then chose them, or do you think he personally poured over statistical analysis? "Hand-picked" just means he personally made the choice. It doesn't take an ace pilot to recognize the pilot who got "hit" the least and who got in and out of a hot zone the quickest.

And furthermore his own bounty hunting necessitates in-film piloting of his own starship, and again, he's a commander. He's been recognizing subordinate talent for awhile.

Nice. Now maybe you can actually post the entire quote rather than just the convenient fragment you apparently want to twist to bolster your blustering

Please. You emphasized his canon "uberness" with the specific intent of reinforcing this overall thesis that you're developing, namely the stupidity of the films is comparable to the stupidity of the EU. If Jango Fett the ubersoldier is an EU construct, than its really a disproof of your thesis.

In case your reading comprehension is not up to viewing the entirety of the quote, I bolded the relevant part. Now, you may recall I MENTIONED one bit of the canon literature, the EP2 VD. Of course, the Hard Contact novel isn't canon, but I decided to toss that in as an afterthought, since its simply additional evidence to support my example. Of course, you'll just continue your pattern of blustering through it without conceding the point.

Except there is no "canon literature" anymore, apart from the tiny matter of the names of stuff that are stuck into the canon. "G" canon is GL product only. The rest of things are no different than anything else written by any other non-GL author. And that's according to Leland Chee. If you like to tell him that how he sets up the Holocron is constrained by previous policy, implied or otherwise, take it up with him, not me.

Non-informed indeed.

Gee, we know he's a pilot (as per AOTC.) He hand-picked the combat instructors for the commandoes (who had to be trained in demolitions, sniping, and other duties) which demonstrates he must have sufficient knowledge and epxerience in such matters as to determine who to choose (much less choosing them according to Mandalorian traditions.)

And he didn't do this personally with a small unit merc group (analogous to commandos, really)? He commanded that group. And better yet we don't even have to believe he's well-versed enough to do it personally because a 1.2 million troop body minimum necessitates analysis via statistics and other impersonal media.

If it was a simple matter of analyzing someone else' opinion of who was the "best" instructors, then there's no reason for him to "hand-pick" them.

hand·pick (hndpk)
tr.v. hand·picked, hand·pick·ing, hand·picks

1. To gather or pick by hand.
2. To select personally.

All he has to do is make the choice personally, and with a 1.2 million army, he's got to be doing this by stat comparison - hardly something where you need be an experienced demolitions expert or ace pilot. And better yet, its scarcely believable he didn't personally select proficient soldiers under these skills with his merc outfit.

And he trained the ARC troops personally, which are at least as good if not better htan the commandoes (who are themselves better than the standard clone troopers.).

And a small unit of mercs aren't comparable to commandos despite very similar missions and size? (Open Seasons has groups in the mere dozens). He's been doing this for years.

And there's the bit about advising equipment design such as the armor (again based on his military experience.)

He was a grunt in a merc outfit and a field officer in command of the selfsame unit. And he wore head-to-toe combat armor.

What it demonstrates (and which you will continue to bluster past) is that his experiencee is so varied and extensive that he can substantially contribute to many different aspects of the Clone trooper project (the commandos, the standard troops, the ARCs, etc.)

The commandos and ARCs have very similar missions and unit scales with his old merc outfit. This is perfectly analogous. Hand-picking the best in a 1.2 million man army is a matter of comparing stat profiles and making a selection, personally. He does not imply that he is actually highly proficient at each. Really - how much experience does one need to look at a set of AT-TE driver profiles and see which drivers extracted themselves from being caught in the terrain, advanced most rapidly, and outflanked the enemy most quickly? I already gave an example with the clone pilots.

Better yet, in Open Seasons we see that the Mandalorians have their own vessels and drop ships. I wonder who selects those quality pilots for their missions and posts. Surely not their commander.

But go on, keep insisting that you really have a point. Its not the first time you've done so.

Alright Connor. I'm tenacious.

There you go, inventing fallacies again.

Repeating a stint as an officer in relatively small units and using experience as a grunt to see who is a better soldier and which armor is the best, and to train commandos as a former officer of mercenaries...from this information it follows he's a demolitions expert, ace pilot, superb soldier, etc.

Yup, looks like an example of the conclusion not following from the evidence.

Your whole counter-rebuttal is, briefly: "Uhm, none of his previous experience as a commander, junior officer, and grunt matters. He must be an ace pilot, superb demolitions expert, sniper, and driver in order to personally select the above from bodies within a 1.2 million man army."

And nice dropping of the "Mandalorian traditions" fact, too. A pity we don't know at all what that means, but its very clever nonetheless.

What's next? Going to get pissed and start hurling insults too just because I don't buy your bluster? I've demonstrated my point, and provided evidence (which you haven't - you're just nitpicking the evidence I presented.) Concession accepted, as usual.

Actually I did not cite any of your quotes (hard for me to nitpick then), and instead I did cite a new source you had omitted and continue to ignore entirely showing Jango Fett as grunt, subordinate officer, and commander, Open Seasons. Depictions which are wholely irrelevent to the assumption of his mass uberness in the highest canon, the film, of course.

And there's no concession offered, as clever as that much-aped rhetorical flurry is, sadly.

[Dalton]

Hey Stofsk, have you read Starfighters of Adumar? I think you'd like it. It's an Allston book and deals with four old-school Rogue Squadron vets (Wedge, Tycho, Janson, Hobbie).

I'm somewhat apprehensive in doing so, as the Wraith Squadron books have been a tremendous disappointment. Some people forgot or didn't read how I went into the books on Allston's side, expecting good things. They don't seem to understand my being disappointed with the books, as opposed to being needlessly harsh in my criticism. On that level, it's made me disillusioned with the EU. I don't know who and what to trust now. AC Crispin's trilogy is the only major, Bantam era trilogy left untested and untried, and that's it. The rest would be the NJO.

Oddly enough, I've heard some no-shit favourable recommendations on the NJO.

I haven't read ANY NJO. Surprised? I've read pre-NJO and post-NJO, but nothing in between. Anyway, the authors I generally trust to tell a good story are Tim Zahn, Troy Denning, Aaron Allston, Brian Daley, AC Crispin and...ah...I think that's about it. A lot of EU is crap, but there are plenty of nuggets of gold.

"Starfighters of Adumar" is a good read, I think. Borrow it from your library if you don't want to buy it - it's a fun story. Try any of the Zahns. "Survivor's Quest" is fairly nifty. Troy Denning's "Tatooine Ghost" was a very good narrow-focus read.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I don't think all of the EU is crap either. I enjoy Dark Empire (the first one) mostly, and I really enjoy all of Troy Denning's work.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

That's no protection at all. Canon screwups, including minimalism, uber-characters, and whatnot, ,still have to be reconciled just as much as EU screwups do.

Point.

What's more, many of the "screw ups" in the EU can be directly or indirectly tied to the canon (or the behind the scenes canon) - AT At dimensions, DS2 size (which is tied to production art rating it at 160 km), the "one million clone troops" from the EP2 novelization, the "thousands of systems" being a major threat to the Republic, TESB asteroid incident, etc.

Well, all they had to do was actually watch the film for most of this. Besides, that stuff isn't that bad. Compared to some in the EU.

Right. You don't think its "that bad" that Lando Calrissian leading entire starfighter wings (over someone like say, Wedge Antilles) or dictating battle strategy to someonel ike Ackbar... or Jar Jar binks being made a "General", or Anakin the boy wonder, or a diplomat and smuggler leading commando missions. - is bad?

Lando Calrissian ... he's at least supposed to have some combat experience. Purely in the film and novel canon, he was at Tanaab (P.73 ROTJ) and was supposed to have won brilliantly. That suggests possible General experience in the long past. Good generals are not exactly gracing the Rebel Alliance in spades.

Dictating battle strategy to Ackbar? Do you mean the part where he tells Ackbar he can't give up? Do you see him analyzing logic? Because all I can see is that Lando has confidence in Han. It doesn't take a great deal of tactical genius to have confidence in a friend. It doesn't take brilliance or an Academy education to realize that their only chance to get out of the deadly Imperial Artillery (DSII) is to make like the NVA and charge close enough to the Imperials to grab their belts.

I always thought Binks was promoted somewhat politically, without much regard as to his abilities. Kings sometimes do that, and honestly I don't find it annoying. It is no more annoying than how fast Imperials are promoted from Captain to Admiral.

Anakin's bad, I'd admit. But at least he only had two uber talents, mechanics and repulsorlif operation (aided by the Force). I can buy one genius boy. That's different from sticking out the "all-able genius" out every time. Things that are cute once get old real fast.

In a Literary sense, It is like how ANH's ending was cool and TPM's ending was cheesy. Actually, they were both quite cheesy. The difference was that TPM's came after a massive overuse of such tactics.

Diplomat and smuggler. The diplomat was a volunteer. As for the smuggler, you might notice that the entire Rebellion strike party was a mix of criminals and commandoes (P.84). Basically, the Rebel Alliance is a really motley, undermanned group. They probably chose Han Solo because he's a relatively old time smuggler to lead them.

And that's not even getting into problems if we consider secondary canon sources - DK books, the novelizations, the scripts, and the radio dramas. A fair bit of which often tends to get ignored because someone doesn't like it (including among SW fans.)

Remind me. I read the novelizations, but the scripts and radio dramas are not in my possession. I have a pair of ICSs (TPM and of course AOTC - I'd be shot if I didn't get the latter).

So... whats the point in using RPG stats, exactly?

The point here is to demonstrate how the EU gradually adds more and more functions to the heroes. They started out relatively believable. The EU then did something to them

Frankly that pales in comparison to "Dracula" Palpatine and his SUPERFREAKYDIMENSIONAL FORCE STORM UBER power.

Thanks for agreeing with me about how the EU keeps spreading those powers wider.

Because you like to pick and choose what you like and hate, rather than deal with it all as it comes? How is that supposed ot be a good thing, again?

Of course we can choose what to like and hate. The fact it might be dealable doesn't mean something is a good idea.

I only cited *one* EU novel (and a rather well-written one in fact.) The primary reference I made was to canon - in this case, the AOTC Visual Dictionary. Not precisely EU, is it?

Under the new rules, even the VD is part of the "C-canon". Yes, I know you hate that GCSN scheme, and honestly, the only good thing about it is that at least now they didn't have to canonize "Imperial-class", but there it is.

In any case, if we assume the VD has elevated status as a "definitive" work, the VD's idea that Jango drops in occasionally to act as a kind of consultant is still not that evil. Even in the film, He is a bounty hunter, with all the skills that apply. Such skills are applicable to at least some portions of the military - he can certainly teach the new guys how to shoot. As for the equipment part, there is no denying that Jango used guns. That he could help with some areas like ergonomics (very important in an armor here) is hardly shocking.

Add his EU based Mandalorian officer experience proposed by IP.

Again, why is it the EU is selectively cherry-picked when it comes to details but the canon is not? One minute its "cool and its apart of the SW universe" and another its "total bullshit" at best its inconsistent, and at worst its hypocritical.

I suppose it is because of the Cerasi's foggy window thing, which makes a claim by EU far more disputable than a claim by the film at least in theory.

BFC had its own share of problems: Tiny starships.

You mean, they didn't show you any SSDs on the New Republic side. Sorry, pal, few pre-NJO books do. It is a problem, but it is more or less a Universal one throughout EU. While of course it is a valid criticism, but if you hate the story because of that, you'd have to hate all of EU.

The NR being composed of a grand total of 11,000 systems and a fleet of a few thousand ships.

Point. However, sometimes looking at a X-Wing book and the NJO Stackpole duology (which kind of smells like X-Wing series #10 and #11), it sometimes feels like there are only about 100 ships in the NR Fleet. I still can't forgive Corusca Rainbow showing up twice. There are so few X-Wing squadrons that even an average squadron can have a name, not just a number. They are so short of starfighters that they can't re-equip a single high priority squadron.

The whole Luke Skywalker side trip.

Some people didn't like it, but honestly one has to admire the courage of this author.

I liked it too, but Alyeska put it best. The EU isn't crap. Its got its good points and its bad points. So does the canon. You take it all as you can and deal with it as best as possible. Why this necceasrily needs bitching about (which more often than not, as mentioned, is little more than me-tooing bullshit) is beyond me.

Honestly, dealing with it as best as possible is one thing. Remembering that some parts are indeed stupid is another which does not contradict with the first. I've heard of some truly brilliant SoD backflips being done with the XWBW's Lusankya incident and the Golan Incident in SWIR. Briliant and necessary may they be in the SoD sense, one should not confuse them with Stackpole ever thinking anything of the kind.

If you don't like Venting Sessions, just don't participate. Personally, I need to take off my SoD mask every once in a while and cry "THAT FUCKING IDIOT STACKPOLE!" Sometimes, I do both in the same answer. I'm sure there are still more than enough SoD threads to entertain you.

[2000AD]

And they did develope new tatcics, and their escape from Coruscant in Rebel Dream/Stand (whichever it was) showed why they're being pilots as well as commandos was a good idea, in fact their entire escape plan was based on it.

I wasn't talking about the NJO, but about the X-wing books in the Bantam era.

And these glorious tactics, please read Lord Poe's comment earlier in this thread.

I know your talking about the X-Wing books, i was showing a later book to show why my point about their combined pilo/commando status was useful, thus justifying my reasoniing, is this too hard for you to understand?

And for Poes post let's have a look:

Gotta agree with you. There's a couple of nice passages, but these books by and large showcase the worst of the EU. Bacta War, we have an ISD Captain go stark raving insane as he begins to lose the battle. Wraith Squadron was possibly the worst in this regard. The Duke Boys fool an ISD into thinking they're the Millennium Falcon, making it stray from its primary mission goal. Even though that ISD has numerous support craft like assault shuttles and TIE fighters to check on this secondary concern.

Despite that all those Ties were tied up with the other base defenses? (And in fact were getting their asses kicked) Personally i wouldn't break off forces to chase a secondary concern when those forces are having trouble with the primary concern. So Trigit had a choice of either trying to capture some escaping rebels, or capturing some important rebels which were having trouble escaping. Which would you go for and what would you send, considering the skill,luck and status of the Millenium Flacon and it's crew?

Then we have that idiotic scene where Wedge has a Correlian Corvette pointed "up" at an ISD's belly, using the engines to kick up a dust cloud from the moon below it so the ship can't be seen visually, while free to fire directly on the ISD. The ISD commander would rather sit right over the moon and do absolutely nothing while being blasted to pieces by Wedge and his amazing supercommandos. Its amazing that Wedge knows the Imps will be too stupid to TARGET THE BILLOWING DUST CLOUD.

For one this is an old smuggling technique as pointed out by Wedge, so you can't really classify it under new tactics thought up by Wraith Squadron. And two, the Imps did target the dust cloud, there were numerous statements by the crew about how the last shots had been close, or that they had to shift position so they didn't give away their firing position.
Why were the imps stupid? I can't give a conclusiveanswer but the ISD had lost shields and lost it's bridge. They couldn't target the ship with sensors or visuals due to the malfunctioning sensor array thingy and the dust cloud respectively, so they did the best they could. I don't know why they didn't just saturate the area with firepower, but i'll take a guess that the loss of the bridge temporarily fucked up the chain of command, they were already under attack and maybe the corvette wasin a position where they couldn't get all their guns trained on the area. Why didn't they manouvre? I don't know, but Trigit seemed more of an inventor than an admiral to me.

So overall your suggestion of using Poes post to attack WS new tactics has brought up just one of those new tactics and it was one that worked perfectly. Good job.

And as i pointed out they did get the specialist training they required, such as Kell when he was a commando, Tyria in the the Antarian Rangers and Donas when he was in the Corellian military.

Yes, no SHIT. The point I was trying to make was that this doesnt. MAKE. SENSE. They're supposed to be grunts. Grunts! Not superheros. The entire premise behind the X-wing books was, to my mind, to show the war from the ground level. Cut out the Jedi/Sith/Grand Admirals, and show the grunts fight a battle for a change. Well, what kind of grunt knows how to pilot SEVERAL different vessels, while having a variety of intrusion and subversion skills, or knowing how to snipe or plant demolitions, when specialising in these fields requires constant practice?

Given that Luke was able to use his T-16 piloting skills to pilot an X-wing it looks like there isn't much difference in ship piloting tehniques in the SW galaxy.
And from a pilot POV these were grunts. As wedge pointed out these weren't Bror jace, Bacta Prince, or Corran Horn of Corsec, these were people that had fumbled their career into the gutter and were getting a second chance. As i pointd out earlier there were only 40 of all the NR military washouts that had the required cross training, so ok, i'll conceed that they're Grunt+, but they're probably the closest to grunts we've seen.

Can you point out where i accused you of having not read the books? Oh look, no you can't, i accused you of having a piss poor memory dumbass!

that book you said you read but don't seem to remember anything about.

Backhanded, snide comment from one person who *has* read the books against someone he accuses of "not remembering anything about them" which is functionally no different from saying "You didn't read them properly" which is again, not far from saying "You didn't read them at all."

Snide comment or not it still reads as an accusation of your memory.

Which isn't justified, motherfucker. As my 'piss poor memory' was in relation to the RS books which I readily conceded to someone else, whereas I have read Wraith Squadron recently and it was fresh in my mind. So when you say "oops, the books you OBVIOUSLY didn't remember these key facts which I've recited" there is little difference in saying "oops, I guess you didn't read it properly", making your 'rebuttal' somewhat odd, as you might as well have stated I didn't read the fucking books.

So your piss poor memory was in relation to the RS books? So all the points that i pointed out (this post}, about how Face was an actor, Donos was a sniper, etc. were in the RS books and not in the book that was fresh in your mind?
And your saying my comment wasn't justified?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Why were the imps stupid? I can't give a conclusiveanswer but the ISD had lost shields and lost it's bridge.

Actually, they lost only half the bridge. Trigit was commanding from the "aft" half.

They couldn't target the ship with sensors or visuals due to the malfunctioning sensor array thingy and the dust cloud respectively, so they did the best they could.

Morons! Even if it was a all-spectrum jammer (and being a communications dish rather than a dedicated ECM unit), one can wonder how much of the spectrum can it really block), they can GO PASSIVE, get a bearing and range on the dish (they knew where the dish was already, but if they forgot they can check this way), and destroy the fucking dish.

We are talking sensors sensitive enough to detect tractor beam launchings (see TLC) and can detect lifeforms by analyzing respiratory byproducts (DFR) and EM polarization effects, as well as the heat of mere creatures. They can try using fucking GRAVITIC guidance (they are on things as small as PLX-2M missiles) on the repulsorlifts, or INFRA-RED to penetrate the dust?

I don't know why they didn't just saturate the area with firepower, but i'll take a guess that the loss of the bridge temporarily fucked up the chain of command, they were already under attack and maybe the corvette wasin a position where they couldn't get all their guns trained on the area. Why didn't they manouvre? I don't know, but Trigit seemed more of an inventor than an admiral to me.

All you are saying is "Yeah, I don't know why they fucked up so badly."

Given that Luke was able to use his T-16 piloting skills to pilot an X-wing it looks like there isn't much difference in ship piloting tehniques in the SW galaxy.

IIRC, the T-16 was supposed to be extraordinarily similar to the T-65 (refer to P.185-186 ANH). At least Luke can lay claim to many, many hours piloting that. While being canon, as Connor pointed out, does not make it immune to criticism, at least canon gets "first call" on these "one time exceptions".

And from a pilot POV these were grunts. As wedge pointed out these weren't Bror jace, Bacta Prince, or Corran Horn of Corsec, these were people that had fumbled their career into the gutter and were getting a second chance. As i pointd out earlier there were only 40 of all the NR military washouts that had the required cross training, so ok, i'll conceed that they're Grunt+, but they're probably the closest to grunts we've seen.

In ability, they are far more than "grunt plus". I suppose it is just as well tha tthey are quickly disappearing into Intelligence. Presumably, to maintain any reasonable degree of proficiency in the fields (assuming it is possible at all), they would need to constantly alternate between Commando refresher training and Pilot refresher training, and only be on deploying for very short periods of time.

[The Original Nex]

I haven't read ANY NJO. Surprised? I've read pre-NJO and post-NJO, but nothing in between.

There's post-NJO material out right now?
I didn't think it came out 'til '05....

I personally would recommend the NJO, IMO it's a good read. Some books are tedious, but I didn't find any painful to read as I did the Crystal Star and Children of the Jedi

[Mr Bean]

We are talking sensors sensitive enough to detect tractor beam launchings (see TLC) and can detect lifeforms by analyzing respiratory byproducts (DFR) and EM polarization effects, as well as the heat of mere creatures. They can try using fucking GRAVITIC guidance (they are on things as small as PLX-2M missiles) on the repulsorlifts, or INFRA-RED to penetrate the dust?

The more sensative your ECM the more vurnable it is to a simple !$%!% saturation effect of filling the air on every single band with raw noise(What they said the thing was designed to do)

True it was Trigits foolish desison to not simply blast the damn thing, bouncing corvette or not, also foolish was not rolling the damn ship so he could start blasting with two thirds of his guns instead of just a quater

[Illuminatus Primus]

Amen, Kaz. Why Connor-boy would come into a thread labeled "The X-Wing Books Suck" and proceed to bitch why complaining about the EU is silly is totally beyond me. I suppose some people enjoy subjecting themselves to that which annoys them.

[Dalton]

I haven't read ANY NJO. Surprised? I've read pre-NJO and post-NJO, but nothing in between.

There's post-NJO material out right now?
I didn't think it came out 'til '05....

I thought "Survivor's Quest" was post-NJO. I think I'm wrong there.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I haven't read ANY NJO. Surprised? I've read pre-NJO and post-NJO, but nothing in between.

There's post-NJO material out right now?
I didn't think it came out 'til '05....

I thought "Survivor's Quest" was post-NJO. I think I'm wrong there.

EDIT: Do'h, it was Tattoine Ghost.

Survivor's Quest is set between Vision of the Future and the beginning of the Junior Jedi Knights series.

[2000AD]

Leia and Han go to Tattooine and Leia learns about her parents.

I thought that ws Tatooine Ghost?

[Lord Poe]

The Crystal Star, followed by Children of the Jedi, are both far worse novels. There's also Dark Journey and Traitor, both of which are so uninteresting that I barely touch them now. Traitor is perhaps the only SW novel I can think of aside from the Crystal Star that I might actually detest.) By comparison, the X-wing novels are more enjoyable (although Allston's novels are superior to Stackpole's.)

I agree there's a lot of EU novels that suck; I just said the X-wing books showcase the worst of the EU. The entire NJO blows. There's only a few EU novels I really like.

Drysso was an idiot, yes. Its a repetition of similar stupidity we've had to rationalize in the canon as well, though.

Not to this extent. Zahn set the bar. There's no reason an ISD captain should stray from his primary mission goal; destroying the Rebel base.

Sorry, this isn't even remotely bad compared to anything in COTJ or Crystal Star. Or the JAT for that matter.

And? Its the same kind of bad. There's too much of this crap in the X-Wing series alone.

Now, if you want something to criticize in the X-wing novels, try Stackpole's claim that a truck moving at around 60 km/hr could take out full-powered, doubled up X-wing shields. Or that laser cannons are "kilojoule" range.

Again, I'm not going to disagree. But he was working from those pesky WEG sourcebooks.

Somewhat annoying, but again it pales in comparison to other novels (again see above for Stackpole's far greater technical incompetence.)

Once again, its this the same kind of bad that permeates the EU novels. The X-Wing series are simply more consistent with showcasing these bad examples.

Frankly, I consider the best judge to be how both Allston and Stackpole handled their respective duologies in the NJO - whose do you think was better? I think Allston's was (although the whole "Force-inspired field trip to Coruscant" was a stupid plot.)

Allston by far. Despite the annoying tendancy to make the Imperial uber-stupid, the humor is done well. Reading Stackpole is like reading the "Magna" version of Star Wars. Everyone has the same stupid smirk on his face, because they're a master badass in their own right.

In my opinion, the EU is great when it showcases why the characters AREN'T omnipotent. The Daley Solo novels do this excellently.

[UCBooties]

Reply, yes it was. Survivor Quest dealt with the Outbound Flight Project. This chronology puts SQ at 22 years after ANH. Late in the arc, but still predating the YV invasion.

[Stofsk]

What I did was apparently no worse than how you reacted to Alyeska, and that is parttly why I am being so "disparaging" as you put it. I read Alyeska's response, and while not exactly "nice guy" (not that it needs to) it did not warrant the sort of response you gave him. That alone did a great deal to reinforcing the so called "disparagement" you accuse me of. So maybe you should re-examine how you reacted to Alyeska before you criticize me about my response.

I have.

As for my comments, I can and do apologize for unfairly calling you an EU-basher or "Empire-wanker".

Apology accepted.

Again, judging by your particular comments towards Alyeska, you were apparently looking for a particular "kind" of discussion, not a completely objective one. That may not have been what you intended, but that is what I certainly read into your comments, and hence, my response.

That's not really fair. The OP wasn't addressing anyone, or insulting anyone. I admit I was a little cavalier in my opinions, but that's hardly a bad thing. I did put the trouble into listing what I disliked about the books, and maybe to be fair I should have also listed what I liked. Live and learn, I guess. Next time I read one of the books I haven't read before I may just list the good things with the bad. There were some people who decided to jump in and attack me for not having read the books, or not 'getting' them, and I shot back against them. Alyeska doesn't fit into that, though, and my remarks made to him were not that bad. I honestly don't understand why you think my response to him was so bad. It was a touch sarcastic, yes. But I didn't flame him. However, if an apology will serve to seal this breach then so be it, since it was not my intention to cause certain members undue stress.

Alyeska, I apologise for being sarcastic.

And the EU sucks line: I wrote that in anger. I should have rephrased it better, to something along the lines of "Some of the EU sucks" or "This is an example of the EU sucking" rather than using it as a blanket statement.

That's your opinion. If you didn't like them, maybe you'd like "Republic commando: Hard Contact" or "Jedi Trial" better. Both generally feature much better applications of commando/small scale military engagements than the X-wing novels do.

I might just do that. Thanks.

[Stofsk]

Ok, Stofsk, I'm going to cement my reputation as an EU fanwhore with this post, but here goes. We get it. You don't like the EU.

I don't know where you got that from. I have, on numerous occasions - and a quick search of the Archive board will yield you results - commented on EU works by Timothy Zahn, in debates with others. I did so because I liked those books. I have, also, said I liked Dark Empire and Dark Empire 2 by Tom Veitch and Cam Kennedy, and even made a poll about these two works. I have praised the current Clone Wars comics, and the Classic Star Wars done by Archie Goodwin and Al Williamson. I am also a fan of the Star Wars WOTC RPG.

My blanket statement at the end of the OP was in error and I would rephrase it to something less inflammatory.

You have made this abundantly clear before.

I have? I don't recall that. Maybe you will want to prove it? It would be a bit hard to do so, though.

Now you have started a thread in order to belabor your point further, albeit with a specific focus this time out. So the point is made, the books are inconsistent, contain brainbugs, and yes, some are atrosciously written (a noteworthy portion in fact). But despite these glaring problems. Some of us just like them. We enjoy them, not because we need to suck down every single peice of continuity and cannon, but because we enjoy reading them. If you don't like them, well we can chalk it up to taste, maybe yours is better than mine, and it's a shame we don't have somthing in common.

I at no point said that you must either agree with me or you're completely wrong. The OP is meant to be an opinionated piece to be sure, and naturally this has sparked some flames from others who have participated in this thread, but that doesn't mean I consider myself right 100%. By all means, read them and enjoy them. We can laugh together with the jokes in the books or bitch about the careless mistakes. It doesn't matter. I wasn't not making a commentary on whether or not YOU should buy them, and read them, and enjoy them; only that I had done so, and didn't like the experience.

But despite your protestation to the contrary, this does seem, for all intent and purpose, just another excuse to trash on somthing you don't like.

Again, where the hell are you getting this from? This is perhaps the first and only time I've ever really 'bashed' the EU,

I can't see the merit in forcing people to defend their tasted in reading material because you don't share it. Your critique was phrased as flamebait, and you have succeeded in drawing out the EU fans for another round of flaming on both sides. Still, the point remains that the EU reading is just a matter of preference and you went into this looking for a fight with those who have a different preference than your own. Let it go, your opinion on the EU is now abundantly clear. You don't like it and you don't have to. So let it go, or rant in the designated forums if you must. But this was pointless mongering.

...mongering of what?

In any case, once again: I don't hate the EU in its entirety. I made that mistake in the OP, and have apologised for it.

...Ok I'm done. Go ahead and flame me now.

You may not have noticed, but I only called certain people idiots for calling me an idiot.

[Stofsk]

I know your talking about the X-Wing books, i was showing a later book to show why my point about their combined pilo/commando status was useful, thus justifying my reasoniing, is this too hard for you to understand?

And I was explaining why the pilot/commando combo reasoning IS flawed, even if it occurs in a later book. Just because it is consistent doesn't automatically make it a smart move.

So overall your suggestion of using Poes post to attack WS new tactics has brought up just one of those new tactics and it was one that worked perfectly. Good job.

As others have pointed out, if the 'tactics' are won because the enemy is stupid, then that's not MUCH of a victory, now is it?

Given that Luke was able to use his T-16 piloting skills to pilot an X-wing it looks like there isn't much difference in ship piloting tehniques in the SW galaxy.

I read Wraith Squadron, and in it they say they must train in X-wing simulators and TIE simulators, making there a difference between the two. Your point is invalid, through the same source material you're defending.

And from a pilot POV these were grunts.

And from an outside POV they're not.

As wedge pointed out these weren't Bror jace, Bacta Prince, or Corran Horn of Corsec, these were people that had fumbled their career into the gutter and were getting a second chance. As i pointd out earlier there were only 40 of all the NR military washouts that had the required cross training, so ok, i'll conceed that they're Grunt+, but they're probably the closest to grunts we've seen.

And as pointed out before, they're not grunts. When the books are promoted for such stories but don't provide them, I get irritated. Kell Tainer wanted to be a pilot to avenge his father, but he for some reason also took up commando training. Myn Donos was a sniper, but also a squadron commander. Face was also a pilot and a actor. Now these three: they could have been BETTER in their one respective field, but instead the premise of the story is that it's better to have a combination. I attacked the book for this, YES, ROGUE SQUADRON WAS WORSE, conceded, but Wraith Squadron wasn't that much better. I would have liked the premise if Wedge and Page teamed up for this campaign, and you see Wedge's new squadron own the skies while Page's commandos move on the ground. But Allston wanted us to have supercommandos, the guys who can plant explosives, snipe stormtroopers, steal TIEs, and go into a dogfight. It's too much.

Snide comment or not it still reads as an accusation of your memory.

...So what is that, an apology?

So your piss poor memory was in relation to the RS books? So all the points that i pointed out (this post}, about how Face was an actor, Donos was a sniper, etc. were in the RS books and not in the book that was fresh in your mind?
And your saying my comment wasn't justified?

Your original comment was in no way justified, since I already knew those details and were pointing out how they weren't good for my SoD. You chose to reply as though I was an idiot who didn't understand what the books were about, or that I hadn't read them right.

The Rogue Squadron thing was a mix up, excuse me I was writing that at 4:00

[Stofsk]

I haven't read ANY NJO. Surprised? I've read pre-NJO and post-NJO, but nothing in between. Anyway, the authors I generally trust to tell a good story are Tim Zahn, Troy Denning, Aaron Allston, Brian Daley, AC Crispin and...ah...I think that's about it. A lot of EU is crap, but there are plenty of nuggets of gold.

Ok then.

OK, so you would recommend the AC Crispin trilogy about Han's early years, Starfighters of Adumar, and Survivor's Quest? I have read Tattooine Ghost, and I must say it wasn't completely enjoyable. It was ok. Denning wrote well enough, but I guess the plot just wasn't all that interesting.

[Alyeska]

Alyeska, I apologise for being sarcastic.

Good man. I decided I just didn't care about the thread anymore and hence wasn't worth my effort to continue. I realized what you were giving mostly opinion, and thats fine by me. Anyway your apology is nice, but not necessary.