Emporer Palpatine was a good guy:

UCBooties · Post by **UCBooties** » 2004-12-05 04:50pm

To clarify, are you claiming we have no evidence that Palpatine is, in fact, a bad guy? I am not saying that Palpatine is a bad guy because he is not altruistic, I'm saying that we have ample evidence of him being general purpose evil, along with him acting in a power hungry manner through much of his movie time. When considering this, I claim that we have no reason to atribute altruistic actions or motivations to him and, contrary to the supposition of the OP, he is still a bad guy.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-12-05 05:06pm

Problem here is for who's POW we look at this. From Palpatines POW he was justified bring down the Republic and create the Empire (with all it faults), to bring "order" to galaxy (and perhaps counter an attack he'd seen in some of visions). Remember that Dark Jedi are not evil for the sake of being evil, but the Dark side has twisted them to think that their means are just (the Force does not lie, but it doesn't show you every thing just like Palantir in LOTR). I think that while it's up depate when their corruption began, Revan and Malak didn't become Sith because they thinked "well defeated the Madalorian. What should we do next. I know let's become Sith lords and attack the Republic."

I while there's no dout that Palpatines (and Revan and Malak's) means were wrong and evil their motives might have not been so evil (they could have as the Jedi and Republic's, but so warped that wouldn't regonice them if walked up to you and bit you in the ass.)

Sothis · Post by **Sothis** » 2004-12-05 05:44pm

I agree with Booties. Whilst Palpy's goals may not have been evil (or, being so twisted by the Dark Side as he ways, he may not have believed them to be evil), his methods certainly were. In his quest for power, a lot of people died, first (presumably) there are many casualties of war in the Clone Wars, and then the real horror begins- weapons like the Death Star, policies like the BDZ, and the like.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-12-05 06:01pm

Sothis wrote:I agree with Booties. Whilst Palpy's goals may not have been evil (or, being so twisted by the Dark Side as he ways, he may not have believed them to be evil), his methods certainly were. In his quest for power, a lot of people died, first (presumably) there are many casualties of war in the Clone Wars, and then the real horror begins- weapons like the Death Star, policies like the BDZ, and the like.

do mean me, since (at least) he seems argue that Palpy was evil for the sake of being evil.

Sothis · Post by **Sothis** » 2004-12-05 06:08pm

Lord Revan wrote:
Sothis wrote:I agree with Booties. Whilst Palpy's goals may not have been evil (or, being so twisted by the Dark Side as he ways, he may not have believed them to be evil), his methods certainly were. In his quest for power, a lot of people died, first (presumably) there are many casualties of war in the Clone Wars, and then the real horror begins- weapons like the Death Star, policies like the BDZ, and the like.
do mean me, since (at least) he seems argue that Palpy was evil for the sake of being evil.

I think I probably mean both of you, lol- I kinda got that vibe from Bootie too, might just be my own perspective on what he said though.

UCBooties · Post by **UCBooties** » 2004-12-05 07:04pm

Yes, I am saying that Palpatine is evil. His methods are evil and his motivation is, for all we can see, to control and corupt the galaxy into a Dark Empire he could rule forever. Yes, at some point he would have had to have fallen to the Dark Side, but since it is clear that this has happened well before the events of the movies, it is hard to pin down what he may have been like before he was evil. However, the fact that he might not have been all that bad once upon a time does not change the fact that he is evil. It is true that not everything breaks down into Black and White, but Palpatine was an evil despot.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-12-05 07:56pm

UCBooties wrote:Yes, I am saying that Palpatine is evil. His methods are evil and his motivation is, for all we can see, to control and corupt the galaxy into a Dark Empire he could rule forever. Yes, at some point he would have had to have fallen to the Dark Side, but since it is clear that this has happened well before the events of the movies, it is hard to pin down what he may have been like before he was evil. However, the fact that he might not have been all that bad once upon a time does not change the fact that he is evil. It is true that not everything breaks down into Black and White, but Palpatine was an evil despot.

You're missing the whole point, Dark Side corruption is not a one shot deal, it affected Palpatine until his last Clone died. many EU sources like the MedStar dualogy and KOTOR make it clear, that the dark side twist your mind, so that think that only get to you're goal is to use means that can concidered evil. Palpatines goal could something like "to bring order to galaxy and end corruption and inefficiency in Old Republic", but the dark side makes him think that only reach that goal is become the absolut ruler of the galaxy.

UCBooties · Post by **UCBooties** » 2004-12-05 08:26pm

So there is no such thing as an evil charecter? They are not evil... they are just completely corupted from giving in to their baser instincts and abusing their power. Ok, so they started out just like everyone else, and maybe they had some good reasons going in, but when you are blowing up planets, raising dark armies, and willfully atempting to spread your corruption, you are evil. Exemptions aren't made just 'cause you may have meant well once upon a time.

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2004-12-05 11:22pm

UCBooties wrote:Palpatine's actions led to a system arguably worse able to deal with the Vong threat than the OR. If he had the forsight to know the Vong were coming, he should have know that by the time they got there in earnest, he would be gone, the galazy would be splintered as a result of his own actions and the effects of the war against him, and his power structure would be demolished.

Whether Palpatine saw his own demise or not, whether he was actually a Misunderstood Good Guy or not, the events of the Clone War and the Galactic Civil War did represent a paradigm change in the galaxy's military thinking. Previously, while ships easily larger and more powerful than the Acclamators exists, many were limited to local-jump ranges, and the Acclamators represented the return of true trans-galactic warships (ref: AOTC ICS). Hell, we even know that previously, many fighters needed other ships to carry them or required external hyperdrives (Naboo and Jedi starfighters, as well as Z-95).

In other words, if it wasn't for the militarisation as a result of Palpatine, the galaxy would have experienced Defeat in Detail™ on a galactic scale. So I don't see how you can argue that Palpatine left a system worse able to deal with the Vong threat.

P.S. Before anybody go "Hey look, it's an Imperial Apologist/Wanker, lets just conveniently ignore his points", I am not arguing that Palpatine is a Misunderstood Good Guy, so anyone trying to pretend that I am can impale themselves on a long wooden stake vertically.

UCBooties · Post by **UCBooties** » 2004-12-05 11:58pm

Hmm, that is a good point concerning the development in Cap ship technology. And it is also true that the GE at its height would have been better able to deal with the threat posed by the YV. Weather the OR would have faired better than the NR had Palpatine not exploited its fractious nature is a debate I'm not sure we have enough information to make. However, the Empire was built and destroyed because of Palpatine's direct efforts to gain personal control. This left a Government that was as fractured, if not more fractured than the one that had preceded the Empire. Hmm, so Palpatine's actions may have actualy helped make the Galaxy somewhat better able to deal with the threat of the Vong. But, it doesn't make him a good guy, it doesn't make his motivations good, and it certainly doesn't make his methods and actions at all forgivable, with the exception that his power grabbing militirization had the beneficial side effect of increasing weapons technology. Still a bad guy though.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-12-06 04:32am

Lord of the Farce wrote:Whether Palpatine saw his own demise or not, whether he was actually a Misunderstood Good Guy or not, the events of the Clone War and the Galactic Civil War did represent a paradigm change in the galaxy's military thinking. Previously, while ships easily larger and more powerful than the Acclamators exists, many were limited to local-jump ranges, and the Acclamators represented the return of true trans-galactic warships (ref: AOTC ICS). Hell, we even know that previously, many fighters needed other ships to carry them or required external hyperdrives (Naboo and Jedi starfighters, as well as Z-95).

Just to be nitpick, but the N-1 has internal hyperdrive(with very poor range).

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-12-06 05:10am

UCBooties wrote:Hmm, that is a good point concerning the development in Cap ship technology. And it is also true that the GE at its height would have been better able to deal with the threat posed by the YV. Weather the OR would have faired better than the NR had Palpatine not exploited its fractious nature is a debate I'm not sure we have enough information to make. However, the Empire was built and destroyed because of Palpatine's direct efforts to gain personal control. This left a Government that was as fractured, if not more fractured than the one that had preceded the Empire. Hmm, so Palpatine's actions may have actualy helped make the Galaxy somewhat better able to deal with the threat of the Vong. But, it doesn't make him a good guy, it doesn't make his motivations good, and it certainly doesn't make his methods and actions at all forgivable, with the exception that his power grabbing militirization had the beneficial side effect of increasing weapons technology. Still a bad guy though.

My whole point was that Palpatine/Darth Sidious doesn't consider himself evil , but doing only what must be done. Of course everyone else(the rebels at least) thinks Palpatine is evil (and are right), but Palpatine doesn't think "what evil thing I should do next". While every dark Jedi is part victim (the Dark side controls them instead them controling it) and Palpatine no exeption that's still no excuse as they did chose to "go down the dark path" as Yoda put it. The dark side is rather devilish as it turns you to the very thing you tried to resist, but you don't see the change (that's why Luke and Leia were a threat to Vader, they could make Anakin see the change). Palpatine is not a "misunderstood good guy (tm)", but he's neither evil in the sence that he get a hard-on by killing people instead of looking at good looking (nude) women (proviving he get it up in first place).

UCBooties · Post by **UCBooties** » 2004-12-06 11:43am

I don't know, he seemed pretty damn pleased when he was giving Luke the ol' force lightning. He may be part victim, but he is still evil, in that he performs evil actions, with motivation that has become so twisted as to become evil. While he may not have been sitting in his throne room going "hee hee hee, evil," (and he might have at that) his goals towards the end were definately those of corruption and destruction, falling well outside any concievable realm of justifiable intent.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-12-06 12:07pm

UCBooties wrote:I don't know, he seemed pretty damn pleased when he was giving Luke the ol' force lightning. He may be part victim, but he is still evil, in that he performs evil actions, with motivation that has become so twisted as to become evil. While he may not have been sitting in his throne room going "hee hee hee, evil," (and he might have at that) his goals towards the end were definately those of corruption and destruction, falling well outside any concievable realm of justifiable intent.

to The Sith destruction and corruption are only means to an end not the end itself, Palpatine had more enough power to destroy everything in the galaxy, yet he did destroy those things he thought he had to (explain this please). sure Palpatine deseved what was coming to him, but he was not evil for sake of being evil (he was evil because Palpatine thinked he had to be evil to succeed).

drachefly · Post by **drachefly** » 2004-12-06 12:47pm

As far as using the force-lightning is concerned, yes, he seemed pretty happy about that. But that was visceral victorious feeling, not so much a 'plan out your next move intellectually and bask in moral satisfaction due to your goals being realized' feeling. His after-the-fact-rationalization functions could very easily have simply forgotten how much he liked doing it and focused on the 'positive' side-effects like Luke being out of the way, or 'punishing' the 'wicked', or something like that.

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2004-12-06 09:31pm

Lord Revan wrote:
Lord of the Farce wrote:Whether Palpatine saw his own demise or not, whether he was actually a Misunderstood Good Guy or not, the events of the Clone War and the Galactic Civil War did represent a paradigm change in the galaxy's military thinking. Previously, while ships easily larger and more powerful than the Acclamators exists, many were limited to local-jump ranges, and the Acclamators represented the return of true trans-galactic warships (ref: AOTC ICS). Hell, we even know that previously, many fighters needed other ships to carry them or required external hyperdrives (Naboo and Jedi starfighters, as well as Z-95).
Just to be nitpick, but the N-1 has internal hyperdrive(with very poor range).

Well, I did say "many were limited to local-jump ranges" (in the context of availability of transgalactic vessels), so it's not that much of a reach to extend the wording over to the starfighters.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-12-06 10:04pm

Since when is there even credible evidence Palpatine knew the Vong were coming? Reference, please.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-12-06 10:06pm

Wishful thinking, mostly.

UCBooties · Post by **UCBooties** » 2004-12-07 10:45am

Ok, I hope this doesn’t constitute thread necromancy because it’s been a day or two. I just feel the need to make this post make my stance on this as clear as I can. I do not believe that the only qualifier for evil is intent to be evil. By such a judge, only Satanists are evil, and then, not all of them. Hell, even most Bond villains believe they are somehow helping humanity or the world. To use real life examples, Hitler’s goal was the safeguarding and advancement of the human race, by restoring the supposed natural order of Aryan dominance. Kim Il Sung created the philosophy of Juche in order to do much the same for Korea. White Supremacists believe that hate and racism are the only way to protect themselves and their families from subversion and loss. These can all be made into reasonable justifications from their point of view. However, they are still evil. They are evil because they have a view of reality which is based on the exclusion of their fellow human beings, and their actions have been evil because of both evil result and intent springing from an moral system which is evil. From these justifications have poured atrocities such as the holocaust, North Korea’s social and economic implosion, and innumerable hate crimes throughout the developed world. The point is, the simple belief that you are doing the right thing does not mean you are not doing something inherently evil for evil reasons.

Palpatine was specieist, as testified in the EU and evidenced in the movies by the total lack of Alien personnel in the Imperial Navy and Government (Thrawn being the exception that proves the rule). He was also probably a racist, No Imperial commander is of a visible minority, and all of them have an accent denoting being raised on Core Worlds. Also, there are no women in the command structure of the movies, and few in the EU. Palpatine committed atrocities personally and through direct order. His evil actions were not confined to the OT either. He manipulated a massive war in order for personal and political gain, then seized power and used his resources and Dark Side abilities to wipe out an order of beings dedicated to the protection of peace and justice. So, even if Palpatine started out believing that he was doing the right thing for the Galaxy, Even if he believed it when he was blowing up planets and attempting to corrupt and twist everything under his control so he could gain power from hate and fear, he was still wrong, and still evil.

To repeat my statement from the first post because I love it so much:

I wrote:Palpatine was a heinous and corrupt evil wizard clinging to power and slipping further and further into delightfully Hitler-esque paranoid psychosis as his power was splintered and his support base was corrupted by his tightfisted and wasteful rule.

Finally, as to the question of whether or not there is any proof that Palpatine new the Yuuzahn Vong were coming, to the best of my memory, there was at most some character speculation in the NJO that Palpatine may have foreseen them. I don’t think there is anything close to direct proof. I treated this scenario as an opportunity to apply a moral argument to a what-if.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-12-07 07:06pm

Obi-Wan Kenobi narrates:
Palpatine was seduced by the dark side of
the Force. He ceased to be Terrance Palpatine
and became Darth Sideous. When that happened,
the good man who was your Emperor was
destroyed. So what I have told you was
true... from a certain point of view.

When I first knew him, Palpatine was already a great politician. But I was amazed at how strongly the Force didn't seem to register with him. I took it upon myself to follow him as my Chancellor. I thought that I could support him as well as Valorum. I was wrong.

He's more cackling old woman now than man, twisted and evil...

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-12-07 07:53pm

UCBooties wrote:Hell, even most Bond villains believe they are somehow helping humanity or the world. To use real life examples, Hitler’s goal was the safeguarding and advancement of the human race, by restoring the supposed natural order of Aryan dominance.

Dude, you really need to increase your knowledge on Bond villians and the Third Reich...

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-12-07 09:12pm

Kurgan wrote:Terrance Palpatine

WTF?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-12-07 09:21pm

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
Kurgan wrote:Terrance Palpatine
WTF?

Ummm it's a joke Kaz.

He has no idea and just chose a name. I mean if he chose Homer Palpatine it would be just as obvious.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-12-07 09:31pm

Darn it, I was hoping someone knew Palpy's real first name.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-12-07 10:13pm

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Darn it, I was hoping someone knew Palpy's real first name.

JOKE WARNING FOR KAZ.

Bob Bobbinworth Palpatine.

JOKE WARNING FOR KAZ.