EU vs USA!!!!

yangja isuko · Post by **yangja isuko** » 2004-12-06 03:54am

ah hell. i should've known this was going to go the way of "we are americans, we eat pieces of shit like you for breakfast". i'm sorry for ever bringing it up.

let's just all agree on one simple fact, such a war would be really really REALLY bad for both sides.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2004-12-06 03:55am

Don't just quit now, we need you to understand that it is fundamentally impossible to successfully bring war to North America given today's society.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-12-06 03:59am

Why are you guys wasting so much time on this utter retard? Anyway, nothing like hard proof to defeat utter stupidity.

yangja isuko wrote:
negative, the EU does *not* lack sealift capabilities in this regard, the dutch/british battlegroup in fact has enormous sealift vessels with far larger capacity than anything the U.S has (the H.M.S Rotterdam for instance).

One of these links shows a USN amphibious vessel of which seven have been completed with another building. The other shows Rotterdam. Please do explain how Rotterdam is unmatched.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/rotterdam/
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/wasp/

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2004-12-06 04:36am

yangja isuko wrote:ah hell. i should've known this was going to go the way of "we are americans, we eat pieces of shit like you for breakfast". i'm sorry for ever bringing it up.

let's just all agree on one simple fact, such a war would be really really REALLY bad for both sides.

Actually, I'm not an American.

In terms of sheer war material spending potential the US outstrips the EU by a colossal margin. You speak of the Dutch millitary? American defence spending exeeds the entire GDP of the Netherlands.

negative, the EU does *not* lack sealift capabilities in this regard, the dutch/british battlegroup in fact has enormous sealift vessels with far larger capacity than anything the U.S has (the H.M.S Rotterdam for instance). though i'll agree that, as with everything else, the U.S has *more* of everything. ofcourse, WHY they do, nobody knows, it used to make sense, what with the cold war and all that, but it really doesn't in today's world.

You say the US has more of everything. Consession accepted.

yangja isuko wrote:]The problem in invading the US would be primarily be to co-ordinate an allied military effort.

You mean apart from the fact that they have "more of everything?". So command-control is a problem. No shit, Sherlock.

yangja isuko wrote:what crack are you on? european forces have access to military technology that is more advanced than american versions, and many outfits and units outperform US counterparts.

I am not on any crack, exept "reality" as Knife said. The EU does not have more advanced tech than the US across the board... and advanced tech alone will not win the day; you need to translate your tech into mass.

yangja isuko · Post by **yangja isuko** » 2004-12-06 05:24am

CaptainChewbacca wrote:How many fighters can the US field? I'm pretty sure we can strike anything offshore from fighters refueled in freaking MISSOURI and hit without too much trouble.

What military we have right now is just for a good "striking force". If we actually WANTED to jack someone, we could produce so much war mateiel it would make your head spin. And Dutch Navy? Give me a break. No one has been afraid of the dutch navy since 1690.

americans, always so out of touch with reality. it's kind of sad really.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-12-06 05:39am

Even if some miracle occurs and foreign troops land on American soil, they will only be leaving under white flags or in white plastic bags. Not only will every National Guard unit be mobilized to fight the invaders, but every civilian with a rifle, a pistol, or a soda bottle, some rags, and a bucket of kerosene will be taking to the streets to defend the homeland. Can you imagine EU troops trying to cut their way through Philadelphia, or New York, or LA? It would be urban warfare to end all urban warfare.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-12-06 05:40am

Wanker wrote:americans, always so out of touch with reality. it's kind of sad really.

Kid, they're the ones producing evidence to back their claims. Right now burden of proof is on you. Make with the evidence or shove it.

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2004-12-06 05:41am

yangja isuko wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:How many fighters can the US field? I'm pretty sure we can strike anything offshore from fighters refueled in freaking MISSOURI and hit without too much trouble.

What military we have right now is just for a good "striking force". If we actually WANTED to jack someone, we could produce so much war mateiel it would make your head spin. And Dutch Navy? Give me a break. No one has been afraid of the dutch navy since 1690.

americans, always so out of touch with reality. it's kind of sad really.

What kind of pathetic argument is that supposed to be? "Americans, always so out of touch with reality" and "It's kind of sad really"? What is your counter-argument? CaptainChewbacca's point was perfectly valid. No one has been afraid of the Dutch Navy since 1690, and as I said, America's defense spending outstrips the EU's by a vast margin.

And I reiterate: I am not American.

Petrosjko · Post by **Petrosjko** » 2004-12-06 06:31am

yangja isuko wrote:americans, always so out of touch with reality. it's kind of sad really.

I'd make a crack about lax drug policies leading to delusional behavior and so on, but around these parts we tend to frown on the hasty generalizations.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-12-06 06:53am

and while atm, the typhoon and the grippen are more advanced than what the US has

The Gripen is not more advanced than much of anything. It is an overrated toy for nations that need to replace F-5 Tigers, not a serious contender to American fighters.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2004-12-06 07:05am

yangja isuko wrote:ah hell. i should've known this was going to go the way of "we are americans, we eat pieces of shit like you for breakfast". i'm sorry for ever bringing it up.

No, its gone the way of 'You're a fucking idiot who has no clue about anything military related, have realised everyone here is calling you on the complete bullshit you're spewing and now you'll try to both save face and run by claiming everyone is biased towards the US over the EU'.

Well excuse me if people are biased towards one side in a debate whom logical investigation and analysis clearly SAYS is the winner. Next you'll be saying that its unfair that someone is biased towards a thermonuclear weapon vs an M1A2....

Post by **Coyote** » 2004-12-06 09:15am

Yangja, we're not saying that the European military is useless or weak. We're just saying that your Euro-wanking is as unsupportable as the Ameri-wanking of others.

The European militaries are indeed professional, capable, and competent. Many are very well led and highly trained. There is no question of that. But "Euro-uber-alles" mentality can be as blinding as "American jingoism" and you seem to be in the throes of it.

European militaries could, indeed, inflict damage and casualties on American forces-- that is not in dispute. But you fail to appreciate the sheer vast amount of rolling, flying, and floating steel the US forces can muster for an all-out war effort. Leo 2A5s may be comperable to , or even a bit better than, an Abrams, but that doesn't help when there are maybe 1200 Leo's against 4x that amount of Abrams-- and we haven't even factored in the US penchant for sticking TOWs on every Bradley that rolls.

Your over-reliance on the Dutch Navy to clear a path for follow-on European forces is incomprehensible. Even if the Dutch Navy were indeed the finest Naval force on the planet that does not alleviate the fact that they have few ships and fewer munitions. An initial engagement against Dutch forces may be savage, but once that first load is blown, they have no follow-up.

American industrial capacity would quickly be able to replace every missile fired. Our logistical lines would be shorter if indeed we're defending home turf.

A UN war against America would actually rely more heavily on the ability to overwhelm us with more numbers from other sources-- Latin American forces coming up from the Mexican border -- or vast numbers of Asian troops landing in Panama and staging north from there (not Mexico-- too close to the US seacoast, and not Canada-- that area is locked down tight by US forces too).

So your vaunted Eurotechnology and foolish reliance on "International cooperation" among European forces would be a minor card in the deck compared to everything else going on. At best Europe could cause a diversion while numbers of less technological forces attritted us away in other areas.

And international excersizes as a measure of European ability... hmmm... excersizes are one thing, deployment another-- when do the Europeans ever actually agree on anything and make efficient descisions together?

yangja isuko · Post by **yangja isuko** » 2004-12-06 09:43am

fine fine fine, i concede, hands down, US would win.

yes, you heard me, you win the argument, all of you.
ofcourse, again as i said, the devastation on both sides would be huge.

personally, i'm all in favor of expanding EU military capabilities and getting a singular foreign policy making in place so we can provide a counterweight to america (and the world does need one).

but hey, i'm just a 'retard' to some of you anyway.

the lcf still kicks arse.

Post by **Coyote** » 2004-12-06 09:51am

Dude, you have some points but you need to learn to market them respectably. Now you're just going "waaah" but don't be surprised to find the pity well here to be mighty shallow.

You are right in that another pov needs to be heard, and I actually wish Europe would get its fecal matter conglomerated and put together a credible Euroforce, but there are so, so many reasons why that won't happen-- and alot of it has nothing to do with capability, but political will.

If you presented respectable and coherent arguments, I think you'd be amazed at the number of people here who would actually be natural allies for you. But you seem to want all the victories to go your way with no argument. Ain't gonna happen.

Man, why do I always end up being the good cop?

Prozac the Robert · Post by **Prozac the Robert** » 2004-12-06 12:08pm

HemlockGrey wrote:Even if some miracle occurs and foreign troops land on American soil, they will only be leaving under white flags or in white plastic bags. Not only will every National Guard unit be mobilized to fight the invaders, but every civilian with a rifle, a pistol, or a soda bottle, some rags, and a bucket of kerosene will be taking to the streets to defend the homeland. Can you imagine EU troops trying to cut their way through Philadelphia, or New York, or LA? It would be urban warfare to end all urban warfare.

Please stop with the sillyness. The national guard might well be highly effective, I relly don't know much about them, but civilian forces wouldn't be much more use than, say, the fighters in Fallujah were when fighting against the american forces. Sure they would inflict casualties, but they would also be murdered by a modern military.

And there is no way that everyone would fight. People are not like that. Most of the ones that are would already be in the guard or the reserves or whatever.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2004-12-06 01:19pm

Prozac the Robert wrote: Please stop with the sillyness. The national guard might well be highly effective, I relly don't know much about them, but civilian forces wouldn't be much more use than, say, the fighters in Fallujah were when fighting against the american forces. Sure they would inflict casualties, but they would also be murdered by a modern military.

And there is no way that everyone would fight. People are not like that. Most of the ones that are would already be in the guard or the reserves or whatever.

i wouldn't go that far. There are tens of millions of American citizens that are quite good marksmen. A trip to rural America would illustrate that quite clearly. Also there has to be at least 40 million hicks in this country who would cream their overalls at a chance to 'take up arms and defend freedom against the evil godless yuro-peon invaders'.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-12-06 01:22pm

Also there has to be at least 40 million hicks in this country who would cream their overalls at a chance to 'take up arms and defend freedom against the evil godless yuro-peon invaders'.

That includes me, BTW, and I've never fired a gun in my life

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-12-06 01:25pm

I could improvise some pretty high-powered unguided rockets from materials in my basement really quick. That's where I keep my Secret Lab of Evil Intent (tm), with all my model rockets and hazardous chemicals.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2004-12-06 01:33pm

I'm with Rogue9 and all the internet dorks who've downloaded the anarchists cookbook and wondered just how hard it would be.

As for the urban fighting, I think it was the great General Zhukov who said "You cannot invade the United States, because there are too many coke bottles and too many gas stations."

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2004-12-06 01:33pm

Joe wrote:
Also there has to be at least 40 million hicks in this country who would cream their overalls at a chance to 'take up arms and defend freedom against the evil godless yuro-peon invaders'.
That includes me, BTW, and I've never fired a gun in my life

which would be the reaction of most people here, even in the pinko commie blue state i live in.

Hey Prozac, let me break something down for you. For the sake of arguement lets say half of all Americans own guns (the actual number is higher, but it works for this arguement). That works out to be just under 150 million people. Of those people, lets say that only half of them are proficient enough to use their weapons effectively. Thats about 75 million people. Of them lets say only half are willing to fight (which is a vast understatement, but hey lets roll with it.) That would present the invading European army with a light millitia of over 35 million mostly hard core right wing partisans. You would need an army of at least 2 million just to control that uprising, to say nothing of the costs of actually invading. That is a conservative estimate. CHINA doesn't even have an army that big. That being said, can we can the Euro-uber wank for good?

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2004-12-06 01:45pm

Not to mention what gang bangers could bring to the party.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2004-12-06 02:08pm

Typhonis 1 wrote:Not to mention what gang bangers could bring to the party.

and there are couple million of those nationwide; Bloods, Crips, Latin Kings, Oriental Rascalz, and countless local gangs.

Ma Deuce · Post by **Ma Deuce** » 2004-12-06 02:10pm

As for the urban fighting, I think it was the great General Zhukov who said "You cannot invade the United States, because there are too many coke bottles and too many gas stations."

Well, glass coke bottles are alot rarer today than they were in the '40s, and plastic bottles make lousy Molotov cocktails. But not to worry: America still has an ample abundance of beer bottles

.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2004-12-06 02:29pm

Styrofoam and gasoline mixed into a lumpy sludge makes a workable napalm substitute....

*sings*
Napalm, napalm, sticks like glue,
sticks to women and children, too...

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-12-06 02:31pm

Ma Deuce wrote:
As for the urban fighting, I think it was the great General Zhukov who said "You cannot invade the United States, because there are too many coke bottles and too many gas stations."
Well, glass coke bottles are alot rarer today than they were in the '40s, and plastic bottles make lousy Molotov cocktails. But not to worry: America still has an ample abundance of beer bottles .

I have a bunch of glass root beer bottles sitting around my room because I don't want to drop them five stories down the garbage chute and I'm too lazy to haul 'em down the stairs.

All I'd need is some gas.