Fears of Ep III

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Generally stuff I hear down the pipe in the Spoiler Thread, as well as details from places like MillenniumFalcon.com and TF.net's "Just the Facts" section.

That and a few educated guesses on my own part.

Vympel would know about as much as I do, and could probably correct anything I happened to muck up. He seems to frequent the Spoiler Thread quite a bit and follows this stuff.

[Vympel]

In AOTC, Dooku handles three Jedi and leaves undefeated, while Obi-wan and Anakin are humbled but not really beaten (since Yoda came to save their arses).

Dooku was about to kill Obi-Wan and had soundly defeated Anakin in AOTC. Yoda coming into the fight after he defeated both doesn't mean they didn't lose soundly.

The duel at the end of AOTC just didn't strike me as enjoyable than any of the others. It's one of the things I disliked about AOTC, oddly enough. TPM's climax was enjoyable even if most of the movie wasn't, yet AOTC seems to be the reverse: most of the movie was enjoyable, but the climax wasn't. I'm not sure what that makes me feel about the film overall.

I didn't mind it. There really wasn't time for a long duel, just like ANH.

As for ROTS, from what we've all seen it looks awesome. Yet I'm worried Lucas will do a few things:

• 'Erase' the droid's memories. This would be utterly stupid and idiotic. We know Droid's obey their masters, and independent droid's like Artoo and Threepio develop a devotion to their masters that Luke in particular found to be atypical. But many fans bitch and whine "OMG why didn't Artoo or Threepio tell Luke abour x y and z LOL" without realising that Droids, even if they're independent, can also be given orders and instructions. "Artoo Deetoo, keep this secret safe!"
  
  "beep-boo-boo-beep"
  
  No need to show the droid's getting a memory wipe. You just have to show Obi-wan give them an order to keep their vocabulator's shut. That's it.

Erasing their memories is easier. The above would result in a very awkward scene- e.g. what secret would he be referring to? The lines coming out of such a scenario would be invariably bad- they'd have to explain what exactly to keep secret, from whom, etc- it just doesn't work IMO.

Compromise: you could show Threepio getting mind-wiped, but leave Artoo alone. There is a symbolic magnifence in having Artoo, the character that really can't communicate with any of the other characters, being the only one to know perhaps the whole story. I can understand wiping Threepio's mind, as he's a bit of a blabbermouth, but Artoo can't talk anyway.

He can be understood if he's hooked up to a starfighter.

[*]Mace given a 'cool' death. Not to be anti-Samuel L Jackson here, but who gives a fuck? I don't really like his character anyway. Why make his send off special?

As Spanky said- it's more a question of not going out like a punk to a pre-pubescent Boba Fett, not being given a "glorious" death. I'm sure his death will be significant/ non-trivial.

[*]Darth Sidious/Palpatine dueling. I'm scared of this the same way I disliked Yoda fighting Dooku, not because it's necessarily a bad idea, but that it will be done poorly.

Agree. I don't want to see Darth Sidious/Palpatine running around like a monkey on crack. That would suck, and it's not my idea of how the most powerful Sith Lord. Hopefully GL knows this. It's not a bad idea, because you must resolve why Yoda, as the most powerful/skilled/wise Jedi, just didn't stop Sidious himself. Answer- he obviously tried.

[*]How they deal with the Twins. This is a big one for me. I want to know why they were separated at birth, and placed in widely disproportionate locations: Leia in a high profile Core world, adopted daughter to a Republic Senator; Luke to his Uncle Lars, in a shithole system at the edge of nowhere. I also want to know why Luke get's watched over by Obi-wan, who doesn't instruct him in the Jedi arts - even if the PT established the younger you are the better off you are. I also want to know why no Jedi master looks over Leia, which is worse than Luke.

In answer to Luke, I presume because Owen Lars told Obi-Wan to piss off and leave him alone, just like is implied in ANH. In answer to Leia, probably because the Jedi were all being hunted down anyway, and having an enemy of the State on a core world (Bail Organa being one of the few they could trust) would be foolish. As to why they were seperated- probably to keep from keeping all the eggs in one basket, so to speak.

Re Spanky's spoiler, that's pretty much correct. Other information I've read indicates Windu isn't the only Jedi to be present in Palpatine's office.

[Sam Or I]

From spoiler information, it seems that there are probably 4-5 duels, depending on how the scenes work.

As to fears, I'm not too worried about excessive kiddiness in this one- I'm sure there'll be some comic relief, like TESB, but not too much, and probably less than TESB.

As to Obi-Wan vs Anakin, I'm the exact opposite- I want Obi-Wan to barely win by the skin of his teeth. Him being the clear-cut 0wNzoR j00 winner just doesn't make any sense in light of what we already know.

I don't think thats what he means. I think he doesn't want another stroke of luck victory that he got in episode one. No Anakin utterly kicking his ass til something then Obiwan gets a cop out victory, like he said, rocks fall on him, bridge falls away, etc. He wants a definate and earned victory by ObiWan.

Exactly what i mean. I want it to be a hard fight on both sides. But in the end I would like to see Obi-Wan win, without any outside help/enviromental effects/character shields/pure luck/Acts of God. Like a Rocky fight with lightsabers (but more elogant of course).

[Stofsk]

Dooku was about to kill Obi-Wan and had soundly defeated Anakin in AOTC. Yoda coming into the fight after he defeated both doesn't mean they didn't lose soundly.

It's just the way they did it. Yoda's timing was really good.

I didn't mind it. There really wasn't time for a long duel, just like ANH.

Yoda jumping around like a maniac was sad.

Erasing their memories is easier. The above would result in a very awkward scene- e.g. what secret would he be referring to? The lines coming out of such a scenario would be invariably bad- they'd have to explain what exactly to keep secret, from whom, etc- it just doesn't work IMO.

Hence why I suggested the compromise: erase Threepio's memory, but keep Artoo's. Artoo always seemed to know more than he let on. I wouldn't be surprised if he was the SW universe's first force sensitive droid. Seriously, that can work. Threepio getting wiped suits the story, yet Artoo you don't have to worry about.

He can be understood if he's hooked up to a starfighter.

Yes, but why is he going to spontaneously blurt out "Vader's your father!" to Luke, when Luke is busy dodging TIE Fighters? Artoo doesn't have to bring it up in conversation, and why would Luke ask Artoo whether or not he knew his father?

Darth Sidious/Palpatine dueling. I'm scared of this the same way I disliked Yoda fighting Dooku, not because it's necessarily a bad idea, but that it will be done poorly.

Agree. I don't want to see Darth Sidious/Palpatine running around like a monkey on crack. That would suck, and it's not my idea of how the most powerful Sith Lord. Hopefully GL knows this. It's not a bad idea, because you must resolve why Yoda, as the most powerful/skilled/wise Jedi, just didn't stop Sidious himself. Answer- he obviously tried.

Well however it goes down, I don't want it to suck.

In answer to Luke, I presume because Owen Lars told Obi-Wan to piss off and leave him alone, just like is implied in ANH.

Why give him to Lars anyway? Similarly, why give Leia to Bail Organa?

In answer to Leia, probably because the Jedi were all being hunted down anyway, and having an enemy of the State on a core world (Bail Organa being one of the few they could trust) would be foolish.

Jedi can use stealth when needed. And it gives an interesting reason why Alderaan was wiped out, beyond the angle of being a rebel hotspot.

As to why they were seperated- probably to keep from keeping all the eggs in one basket, so to speak.

I understand. It's just, one of the twins gets to be a princess, the other a farmer. I'm interested in the decision making process that lead to that. "Hmm... one of these twins needs to learn how to live a life of constant struggle on the frontier, from dangers by irate natives and monstrous fauna... the other can have a life of comfort."

I get the whole 'keep your eggs out of one basket' angle, but the actual separation seems unequal.

It would be interesting if the separation wasn't by choice, but I can't see how that would work.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Well that's the way the eggs fall out of the basket.

[JME2]

It's also possible that they knew that the Empire would have to be taken down both militarily and politically. Leia's presence on Alderrann would give her the teachings and experience she needed to help bring a New Republic into being while Obi-Wan and Yoda could school Luke in the ways of the Force in order to stop the Sith.

[Crown]

From spoiler information, it seems that there are probably 4-5 duels, depending on how the scenes work.

As to fears, I'm not too worried about excessive kiddiness in this one- I'm sure there'll be some comic relief, like TESB, but not too much, and probably less than TESB.

As to Obi-Wan vs Anakin, I'm the exact opposite- I want Obi-Wan to barely win by the skin of his teeth. Him being the clear-cut 0wNzoR j00 winner just doesn't make any sense in light of what we already know.

"When I left you I was but the learner...now I am the Master."

Tou - fucking - che there Primus.

Sorry Vympel, I am 100% against you on this, Obi-Wan needs to kick some serious ass in order for that line in Ep IV to make sense (and let us not mention the Ep IV novel which goes even further).

I am officially proclaiming myself as the President of 'Obi-Wan must kick Anakin's Ass' club as of now.

(And I hope you don't mind me posting so late in this tread, but hey).

[Stofsk]

I am officially proclaiming myself as the President of 'Obi-Wan must kick Anakin's Ass' club as of now.

I respectfully disagree. To a point.

I think Obi-wan should win, of course, but I don't think Anakin should be a pushover. Vader's line 18 years later can make sense regardless of which way it goes, he might just have been bitter from plunging into a molten pit.

[Crown]

I am officially proclaiming myself as the President of 'Obi-Wan must kick Anakin's Ass' club as of now.

I respectfully disagree. To a point.

I think Obi-wan should win, of course, but I don't think Anakin should be a pushover. Vader's line 18 years later can make sense regardless of which way it goes, he might just have been bitter from plunging into a molten pit.

As long as it isn't some cheezey escape for Obi-Wan, like Anakin slipping on a banana peel. He has been the pin cushion for the prequels long enough in my opinion, time for him to unleash, and Anakin seems like a likely target.

[Stofsk]

As long as it isn't some cheezey escape for Obi-Wan, like Anakin slipping on a banana peel. He has been the pin cushion for the prequels long enough in my opinion, time for him to unleash, and Anakin seems like a likely target.

Agreed on the banana peel concern. That would royally suck.

As to Obi-wan being a pin cushion, I'm not sure. In TPM he was pretty good, in AOTC he wasn't, for the most part. Then again, maybe that was the 'theme' of AOTC: the Jedi were complacent, and Obi-wan was no different.

[VT-16]

Well, it's already been known that the opening battle above Coruscant is more or less the end of the Clone Wars.

Actually, it´s just the beginning of the end. Since Grievous and the leaders of the Separatist-factions are still alive, the war is far from over.

That´s mainly the reason Obi-Wan hunts for Grievous, because it could possibly lead to a quicker end to the wars.

Then there´s the battle on Kashyyyk, the montage of several worlds and the battle on Utapau while Obi-Wan hunts Grievous. Plenty of war-fare.

And as for Windu, going out against Palpatine and Anakin (or pseudo-Vader) doesn´t sound like anything less than a bang to me.

[Eleas]

As long as it isn't some cheezey escape for Obi-Wan, like Anakin slipping on a banana peel. He has been the pin cushion for the prequels long enough in my opinion, time for him to unleash, and Anakin seems like a likely target.

Agreed on the banana peel concern. That would royally suck.

As to Obi-wan being a pin cushion, I'm not sure. In TPM he was pretty good, in AOTC he wasn't, for the most part. Then again, maybe that was the 'theme' of AOTC: the Jedi were complacent, and Obi-wan was no different.

I don't think Obi Wan was very bad at all in AOTC. He did well on Kamino, he accomplished the apprehension of Padme's would-be assassin elegantly, he was admittedly taken captive on Geonosis, but acquitted himself well in the arena afterwards. In fact, his prudency was ignored by Anakin and that was the reason why he lost against Dooku, a former Jedi fencing instructor.

As an aside, I liked the battle and yet didn't. Dooku's style was too wide and sloppy, but Obi-Wan's was fine. I liked the part where they fight in near-darkness (it was well filmed), and detested the force powers / Yoda jumping sequence.

[Lord Revan]

well while considered Yoda's style a it funny, it was logical as he and Dooku were more or less equal in Force powers and Dooku had mass and height advantance (Dooku was about a meter taller then Yoda), so Yoda counteracted that advantance by becoming a small fast moving target (so Dooku had disadvantance since big heavy things move slowly (size matters)). Had Yoda been fighting against opponent of same size as he is, Yoda's style would had probaly been different (they don't consider him one of the best lightsaber duelist of Jedi order for nothing).

[Eleas]

well while considered Yoda's style a it funny, it was logical as he and Dooku were more or less equal in Force powers and Dooku had mass and height advantance (Dooku was about a meter taller then Yoda), so Yoda counteracted that advantance by becoming a small fast moving target (so Dooku had disadvantance since big heavy things move slowly (size matters)). Had Yoda been fighting against opponent of same size as he is, Yoda's style would had probaly been different (they don't consider him one of the best lightsaber duelist of Jedi order for nothing).

According to WOTC, they don't consider him the best duelist of the Order at all. Furthermore, Yoda's style was idiotic, as was Dooku's counter of it. Yoda used moves that by nature must be highly stylized. A real fencer would discard such wasteful extravaganza of motion. A master, especially an older master, would be precise, economical, and choose the most expidite techniques to finish his foe off.

What we instead saw Yoda, and to a lesser extent Dooku, premier was a young man's fighting style - power and speed over timing and finesse. It is the province of the young to batter at their opponents' defenses until they tire. An experienced fighter does not need to use such wide swings; they mean overextension and lead to a quick death. Yoda could very well have jumped, but one jump would have sufficed. His running along the wall had no purpose whatsoever, and furthermore just looked bad. He had the potential to launch some truly devastating attacks from below, stabs that would have been hard to block, yet preferred to flail, which he logically should not have been able to keep up.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Concerning Windu's death, the issue isn't so much that he gets a "cool" death as that he doesn't get a lame one, such as getting wasted by a pre-teen Boba Fett like so many wanker fucks have been stroking over.

I hope Windu dies in a duel... one of those "decisive" duels everyone's talking about. Either have him sliced limb from limb throughout the protracted and increasingly desperate battle (which is so something a sith would do) or have his big duel be with Palpatine and do it Seven Samurai style--over in one fast slash.

My biggest fear is that ROTS won't prove me wrong. After all, I think it will suck ass.

[Ghost Rider]

Concerning Windu's death, the issue isn't so much that he gets a "cool" death as that he doesn't get a lame one, such as getting wasted by a pre-teen Boba Fett like so many wanker fucks have been stroking over.

I hope Windu dies in a duel... one of those "decisive" duels everyone's talking about. Either have him sliced limb from limb throughout the protracted and increasingly desperate battle (which is so something a sith would do) or have his big duel be with Palpatine and do it Seven Samurai style--over in one fast slash.

My biggest fear is that ROTS won't prove me wrong. After all, I think it will suck ass.

Well with the rumors that abound...Windu apparently does have something big in his death.

Him and Palps go at it...and then Anakin and Pals team up apprently to whack him

As to your other fear...I unfortunatly cannot allay it as it does depend heavily on how you feel about the PT since this is essentially the climax of all the storylines.

[VT-16]

I hope Windu dies in a duel... one of those "decisive" duels everyone's talking about. Either have him sliced limb from limb throughout the protracted and increasingly desperate battle (which is so something a sith would do) or have his big duel be with Palpatine and do it Seven Samurai style--over in one fast slash.

He WILL die by sabre, you´ve seen the teaser, right? Those two quick shots of him are part of his last stand.

My biggest fear is that ROTS won't prove me wrong. After all, I think it will suck ass.

It will prove you wrong on this particular issue.

[Kurgan]

Maybe Windu is actually winning the battle, then he realizes that all the other Jedi are dead. Depressed, he falls on his own saber.

The end! ; )

[The Original Nex]

According to WOTC, they don't consider him the best duelist of the Order at all. Furthermore, Yoda's style was idiotic, as was Dooku's counter of it. Yoda used moves that by nature must be highly stylized. A real fencer would discard such wasteful extravaganza of motion. A master, especially an older master, would be precise, economical, and choose the most expidite techniques to finish his foe off.

What we instead saw Yoda, and to a lesser extent Dooku, premier was a young man's fighting style - power and speed over timing and finesse. It is the province of the young to batter at their opponents' defenses until they tire. An experienced fighter does not need to use such wide swings; they mean overextension and lead to a quick death. Yoda could very well have jumped, but one jump would have sufficed. His running along the wall had no purpose whatsoever, and furthermore just looked bad. He had the potential to launch some truly devastating attacks from below, stabs that would have been hard to block, yet preferred to flail, which he logically should not have been able to keep up.

I agree about Yoda, but I felt that Dooku (at least when he was fighting Obi and Ani, and with Yoda somewhat as well) seemed very economical in his fighting style, he certainly didn't display any unnecesary acrobatics like Yoda did.

[Eleas]

I agree about Yoda, but I felt that Dooku (at least when he was fighting Obi and Ani, and with Yoda somewhat as well) seemed very economical in his fighting style, he certainly didn't display any unnecesary acrobatics like Yoda did.

True. On the whole he's much better. I mainly have trouble with the scene where he raised his saber above the shoulder in a whipping motion that left him wide open, yet wasn't remotely useful to his fighting style (his saber isn't geared for powerful kenjutsu style cuts but wristwork, so it makes no sense to deliver wide sweeps in that fashion).

My point is also that, while economical in his style, he should be pointing his saber toward his enemy in order to easily and quickly deflect stabbing attacks.

[The Original Nex]

Conceded. I'm hardly knowledgable at all in the arts of swordplay.