The X-wing novels suck

[UCBooties]

Hmmm, I apear to have fucked up rather badly here. Ouch, my perception of your "hatred of the EU" does in fact appear to be coming from a limited pool. Well, in that case I'm going to apologize to you Stofsk for making blanket bstatements. However, in my defense this did appear to be another pile on for EU bashing, and I couldn't see any argument besides arguments of preference and taste. I for one hate having to justify taste since its somthing i don't understand anyway. Anyway, I'm sorry to have misinterprted your intent and misrepresented your opinion.

To add my two cents about EU recommendations, the short story collections are often interesting and well written. I'd sugest paging through Tales from Jabba's Palace for lots of fun palace intrigue.

[2000AD]

And I was explaining why the pilot/commando combo reasoning IS flawed, even if it occurs in a later book. Just because it is consistent doesn't automatically make it a smart move.

It's consistent in that it normally works, and when it doesn't work they can still use their skills to save the operation. Flawed or not it still looks like a good idea to me.

As others have pointed out, if the 'tactics' are won because the enemy is stupid, then that's not MUCH of a victory, now is it?

Trigit may have been stupid, but as i pointed out if he wanted to capture Leia and Han (and lets face it, which Imp commander wouldn't?) it was his only option.

I read Wraith Squadron, and in it they say they must train in X-wing simulators and TIE simulators, making there a difference between the two. Your point is invalid, through the same source material you're defending.

X-wings have a different shaped cockpit and use a stick instead of a wheel. After years of driving a Volkswagen do i need to learn an entirely new set of skills to drive a Ferrari?

And from a pilot POV these were grunts.

And from an outside POV they're not.

As wedge pointed out these weren't Bror jace, Bacta Prince, or Corran Horn of Corsec, these were people that had fumbled their career into the gutter and were getting a second chance. As i pointd out earlier there were only 40 of all the NR military washouts that had the required cross training, so ok, i'll conceed that they're Grunt+, but they're probably the closest to grunts we've seen.

And as pointed out before, they're not grunts. When the books are promoted for such stories but don't provide them, I get irritated. Kell Tainer wanted to be a pilot to avenge his father, but he for some reason also took up commando training. Myn Donos was a sniper, but also a squadron commander. Face was also a pilot and a actor. Now these three: they could have been BETTER in their one respective field, but instead the premise of the story is that it's better to have a combination. I attacked the book for this, YES, ROGUE SQUADRON WAS WORSE, conceded, but Wraith Squadron wasn't that much better. I would have liked the premise if Wedge and Page teamed up for this campaign, and you see Wedge's new squadron own the skies while Page's commandos move on the ground. But Allston wanted us to have supercommandos, the guys who can plant explosives, snipe stormtroopers, steal TIEs, and go into a dogfight. It's too much.

Well i've already conceeded that they're Grunt+ IMO so i'll conceed here as well.
If you wanted to see page and Wedge team up you might like Solo COmmand, where Rogues own the skies and Wraiths own the groung ...... a bit.

Snide comment or not it still reads as an accusation of your memory.

...So what is that, an apology?

Not really

Your original comment was in no way justified, since I already knew those details and were pointing out how they weren't good for my SoD. You chose to reply as though I was an idiot who didn't understand what the books were about, or that I hadn't read them right.

I was using those details to answer questions you asked in the OP, if you already knew the details why ask the questions?

The Rogue Squadron thing was a mix up, excuse me I was writing that at 4:00

Ok i'll apologise for that.

EDIT: fixed quote tags

[Eleas]

I guess my own opinion on Stackpole contra Allston is fairly close to Connor's. In the end, it's about what the authors did with what they had.

Stackpole was given Star Wars and the task of creating a series. He chose to use what was obviously game mechanics in conflict with the movies (even the uninformed can see that the speeds in those games are ridiculously slow, the torpedoes underpowered to the n:th degree, etc), thereby bringing that data from the borderlands of apocrypha into full Officialdom. He chose to show the series from the perspective of an asshole and an egotist, whose character flaws were never shown as flaws, and whose personality beyond that was a gaping void. He chose to define the X-Wing books, to define Rogue Squadron, as this menagerie of refugees from Totally Games spacesims - unkillable, remorseless bit characters. Few, if any, characters from Rogue Squadron had any distinguishing personality traits whatsoever. About the only one who was adequately drawn was Tycho; adequate because it was believable that such an experienced officer would have learned to stop promoting himself in the eyes of others.

In contrast, I can with little trouble remember about every character from Wraith Squadron. That is interesting because Allston, unlike Stackpole, did not have the luxury to create a new series and define what the X-Wing books were about. Frankly, he was handed conventions made by Stackpole, ideas that were utter shit, and for the most part handled them with panache.

I usually contrast the idea of how Allston and Stackpole handled death. Take the first death in both books. Lujayne Forge is given, what, a paragraph, in which she's established as wooden and empty of any sort of life. Then she dies, and Corran is incensed at the temerity of the Imperials (that he has been gleefully slaughtering for the better part of a month) to actually dare kill a Rogue. A death that is never shown, only told in hindsight, and poorly. And then they go on, and on, and on about that person who they never knew as some sort of martyr. And I guess she is. Martyrs doesn't have to be real, after all.

Jesmin Ackbar also doesn't come across as much of a character. But she does have motivations, she does have a character, and the scene where she dies is well-written and gives Kell a reason (in his mind, at least) for feeling like he has failed.

Or how about the way characters kill in the books? Corran, shining paragon of truth & justice, never does wrong, and consequently there's little mention of the morality of his killing people, other than how fun it is that he's so good at it. Contrast that with the scene when Face enters an Imperial control room and shoots an (unarmed, IIRC) officer in the face more or less by reflex.

I could also go on about how the Rogues never, ever, ever, fuck up... but I won't. This post would be a book unto itself if I did.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

X-wings have a different shaped cockpit and use a stick instead of a wheel. After years of driving a Volkswagen do i need to learn an entirely new set of skills to drive a Ferrari?

If you only want "3D" proficiency, you can just hop in. If you want to actually race someone good in a comparable car, where using all the nooks and crannies gained from experience is vital, I'm not giving you much chance. Yes, I'd admit that if you are a super-driver and he's only average, you can still beat him, but if you guys are anywhere close in overall ability, probably not.

In addition, fighters are a lot more funnier than cars. Their manuevering characteristics are more complex. In a car, you basically got thrust and yaw. In a plane you got thrust and yaw, pitch and roll. There are also elaborate differences. Did you know that Russians (as a RL example) use entirely different Attitude Indicators presentations in their ADI than the West? Then they have different stick lengths, rudder pedal spacings. Let's not even get into the other Avionics and their Presentations. In fact, an interviewed American F-16 pilot that tried out the MiG figured it'd take him hundreds of flying hours to fully make the shift if he was asked to fly the Russkie fighter. There is a reason why real world pilots have to conduct conversion training when going into a different type.

In fact, if you are very familiar with your own specialized aircraft, it might be more dangerous to go to an aircraft with slightly different layouts, due to the risk of regression - in stress, you'd go with the old response, but unfortunately the new cockpit is just a little different, so you hit the wrong button and crash.

[Eleas]

In fact, if you are very familiar with your own specialized aircraft, it might be more dangerous to go to an aircraft with slightly different layouts, due to the risk of regression - in stress, you'd go with the old response, but unfortunately the new cockpit is just a little different, so you hit the wrong button and crash.

A lot of the old Rogue Squadron personnel were schooled in the old Seinar Fleet System standard cockpit. I imagine the layout would be pretty similar from fighter to fighter, as the TIE cockpit seemed vastly customizable.

[2000AD]

X-wings have a different shaped cockpit and use a stick instead of a wheel. After years of driving a Volkswagen do i need to learn an entirely new set of skills to drive a Ferrari?

<snip>

There's all those little differences and my analogy is flawed, but i imagine that the basics are the same, ie. which way to push the stick etc.

And the different units don't come into play in the SW galaxy as they are all standardised. The only time AFAIK that different units were used was Starfighter's of Adumar where Wedge and co go to a planet that's been out of touch for thousands of years.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

There's all those little differences and my analogy is flawed, but i imagine that the basics are the same, ie. which way to push the stick etc.

Yes, but each fighter will respond differently, and it is not even just the full maneuverability ratings. Taking more Earth analogies to show potential differences, a F-16 fighter would respond to only a little bit of movement due to its near complete pressure sensing sidestick. A Russian fighter stick is generally designed to rely on movement. A movement that is enough to induce a hard maneuver in a F-16 or F/A-18 would be rather leisurely on a Soviet MiG.

I suppose you can take off and land in an unfamiliar fighter if you have got hundreds of jet flying hours. Flying it well enough to fight and win is another thing.

And the different units don't come into play in the SW galaxy as they are all standardised. The only time AFAIK that different units were used was Starfighter's of Adumar where Wedge and co go to a planet that's been out of touch for thousands of years.

When was I talking about different units like meters and feet? I'm talking about different presentations! For one example of "presentation", the Russian Attitude Indicator kind "tells" you your bank angle - you bank 30 degrees and it'd have a little symbol of a plane banking 30 degrees to a fixed horizon in the circle that's the ADI. The Western ADI shows you where the real horizon is when you bank. If you confuse one with the other, you will suffer disorientation.

[2000AD]

There's all those little differences and my analogy is flawed, but i imagine that the basics are the same, ie. which way to push the stick etc.

Yes, but each fighter will respond differently, and it is not even just the full maneuverability ratings. Taking more Earth analogies to show potential differences, a F-16 fighter would respond to only a little bit of movement due to its near complete pressure sensing sidestick. A Russian fighter stick is generally designed to rely on movement. A movement that is enough to induce a hard maneuver in a F-16 or F/A-18 would be rather leisurely on a Soviet MiG.

I suppose you can take off and land in an unfamiliar fighter if you have got hundreds of jet flying hours. Flying it well enough to fight and win is another thing.

And the different units don't come into play in the SW galaxy as they are all standardised. The only time AFAIK that different units were used was Starfighter's of Adumar where Wedge and co go to a planet that's been out of touch for thousands of years.

When was I talking about different units like meters and feet? I'm talking about different presentations! For one example of "presentation", the Russian Attitude Indicator kind "tells" you your bank angle - you bank 30 degrees and it'd have a little symbol of a plane banking 30 degrees to a fixed horizon in the circle that's the ADI. The Western ADI shows you where the real horizon is when you bank. If you confuse one with the other, you will suffer disorientation.

My mistake on the second bit, points conceeded anyway.
So what's the explanation for how SW people can just jump into any old fighter and whup ass?