Iraqi officers terrified of reprisals

[Darth Wong]

Has anyone been watching CNN lately? After the recent insurgent attacks, a US-trained Iraqi national guardsman was interviewed, and he was wearing a full face-mask because he did not want to be identified on TV (he did not say it, but it was obviously due to fear of reprisals against him or his family by insurgents). Rather interesting, is it not?

I just posted this because it's relevant to an earlier thread about Iraqi national guardsmen being called "pathetic" by a US commander because they're too afraid to do their duty (easy to fling insults when your own family is relatively safe and sound in America), but I didn't really want to resurrect the earlier thread. The subject of this thread is: how long will it take for this situation to change? This certainly gives you an idea of how bad the situation is, when people start covering their faces in case they're identified as working with the US.

[Mr Bean]

This certainly gives you an idea of how bad the situation is, when people start covering their faces in case they're identified as working with the US.

Until such time as prevent the influx of reforceing Foriegn fighters from Sudan, Egypt and most importantly Iran

[Lord Zentei]

A crucial factor in change for the better will be seeing a legitimate government in Iraq i.e. one that is democratically elected. When such a government comes into power it will be far harder for the insurgents to drum up support by decrying the government as a "US puppet". This is probably the reason why both the US and the interim government do not want to delay the elections, and why the insurgents seem desperate to prevent said election or at least make such a delay happen.

What is worrying to me is that several Sunni Arab and Kurd political groups have in fact called for such a delay, claiming that the insurgency was making the organization of political parties difficult. If they feel that the chaos has reduced their voice in the coming elections, the elections will have a reduced legitimacy and the insurgents will have at least partially acheived their objective.

[Imperial Overlord]

Until such time as prevent the influx of reforceing Foriegn fighters from Sudan, Egypt and most importantly Iran

Does anyone have any real numbers on the number of foreign fighter in Iraq. The New York Times said only a small percentage of the people captured in Faluja were foreign fighters, most were Iraqis. In another article it commented that the majority of the security forces were Shi'ite and Kurds and the situation was looking more and more like a civil war. Apparently the latest Shi'ite militia was formed as an anti-Sunni revenge group.

So, what do we really know about the presence of foreign fighters?

[weemadando]

Its a pretty bad situation, and I hate to say it, but its due to neglect on behalf of US forces AFAIK.

The takeover of the country was successful, but the higher echelons quickly fell into peace-time mode, forgetting that it was still a largely hostile country in a very hostile region.

That people turned up in the first place to sign up is a HUGE sign of bravery. That they are chucked into the frontlines in the most consistantly dangerous areas is worrying. And that US commanders are turning around and calling them cowards - when every day more of their number are killed in specifically targetted attacks... While US forces sit back in a massively fortified encampments?

Cmon - how the fuck are they meant to feel. And their fear combined with the US's impatience is just making these attacks more successful.

[weemadando]

Does anyone have any real numbers on the number of foreign fighter in Iraq. The New York Times said only a small percentage of the people captured in Faluja were foreign fighters, most were Iraqis. In another article it commented that the majority of the security forces were Shi'ite and Kurds and the situation was looking more and more like a civil war. Apparently the latest Shi'ite militia was formed as an anti-Sunni revenge group.

So, what do we really know about the presence of foreign fighters?

Despite the constantly touted: "They're foreign fighters" line. I've seen/heard/read VERY little to indicate that fighters in Iraq are for the most part not Iraqi citizens. Certainly there are a few foreign fighters, but the core of the problem has been and remains Iraqi.

[Coyote]

I think WeeMadAndo's appraisal is fairly correct. Our commanders-- primarily the political ones-- were too eager to make things appear normal and peaceful, as if all was under control, way too soon.

There was, and to an extent has been still, an ongoing effort to make things appear like a normal garrison post as if we were in a modern base in Germany rather than an area of some danger.

It shows in how we had few ralistic plans to deal with the looting afterwards, and we were too quick to say "fightin's over, send the tanks home and we can patrol in soft skin HumVees". There was, I think, a definite 'head-in-the-sand' approach being applied, wishful thinking, etc.

Now for the most part more practical minds are in charge and they msostly recognize the necessity of a realistic point of view, but there is a certain level of "spin control" that has to be applied to undo the past damage.

The guys I work with actually have a pretty decent appraisal of the ING forces we deal with. While it is true we do not credit them with a ferarsome reputation, they have earned some respect from the guys I am with, at least. I do see a lot of these ING guys wearing masks and I don't blame them. I would too in their position.

This will go on for awhile. And I do not see it as horribly worrisome-- after all, even in America, many DEA and FBI or SWAT teams wear identity concealing masks as well, to prevent criminal reprisals against themselves or their familys, especially if going after a dangerous and resourcesful target like a Mob Boss.

[Elfdart]

Until such time as prevent the influx of reforceing Foriegn fighters from Sudan, Egypt and most importantly Iran

Does anyone have any real numbers on the number of foreign fighter in Iraq. The New York Times said only a small percentage of the people captured in Faluja were foreign fighters, most were Iraqis. In another article it commented that the majority of the security forces were Shi'ite and Kurds and the situation was looking more and more like a civil war. Apparently the latest Shi'ite militia was formed as an anti-Sunni revenge group.

So, what do we really know about the presence of foreign fighters?

"Foreign Fighters" is just a bullshit story from neocons who just can't face the fact that when you illegally invade another country, kill a large number of people (many of them civilians), carve up the nation's assets, and anally rape prisoners (including children), the locals tend to get uppity. How dare those Iraqis! After all we've done for them! Of course these are the same wankers who said our troops would be greeted with flowers.

[Stravo]

As the author of the 'pathetic' thread I can't say I'm surprised. These poor bastards are getting car bombed while waiting in line to collect thier paychecks. Insurgenst storm their precintcs and steal weapons, they are riddled with corruption and don;t know who to trust since many among them are working hand in hand with the insurgents.

Who the fuck wouldn't want to hide their identity. The insurgents have masterfully switched targets from the US troops (a FAR harder taregt for them to hurt) to the more vulnerable and symbolic Iraqi security forces.

How can you claim legitimacy and sovereignty when your security forces are terrified of the insurgents? When your security forces are slaughtered almost at will by the other side. One of the cornerstones of sovereignty is the ability to defend yourself and your interests - in other words a stable and working internal and external security force. Iraq has neither.

Also if you hold elections and only 60% of the people can vote because the rest live in areas infested with insurgents how an you possibly call that a successful election. The US has to face facts that as of now this election is a farce unless they can actually curtail the fear these insurgent bastards are causing. How can you possibly claim that this nation is anywhere near ready to vote for a new puppet government??

Of course according to Rumy any voter turnout is 'good enough'. Ass.

[tharkûn]

Unfortunately this is par for the course. I have been to several latin American countries were at least some of the cops do the same; I sure as hell would if I might have to arrest somebody from one of the drug cartels. How long will it take to change? Maybe years, as long as the populace supports the insurgents either willingly or through fear you are going to be at risk. On the flip side the populace is far more likely to back or at least tolerate the insurgency when they are killing the damn yankees; killing some one's son, brother, husband, or father tends to erode support. There are voices of reason in Iraq, I particularly like the guy who went around saying the fastest way to get the Americans out was to let the rebuild the country, they will be listened to more as the insurgents keep killing Iraqis ... assuming the cock-ups committed by coalition forces are kept to a minimum.

As of yet it is only a fraction of a percent of the total Iraqi population that is taking up arms, a minority that small can only continue to function as long as the rest of the populace isn't willing to turn on them. It could be years before that happens, or it could be soon after the elections. The only the coalition forces can really do is hold the line and not cock the situation up even more.

[Mr Bean]

"Foreign Fighters" is just a bullshit story from neocons who just can't face the fact that when you illegally invade another country, kill a large number of people (many of them civilians), carve up the nation's assets, and anally rape prisoners (including children), the locals tend to get uppity.

So the people we stop every single DAY at the borders ariving in trucks with weapons hidden in everything from washing machines to oil tanks are just our imagination?

The folks siting in Gitmo don't exist and are mearly goverment lies?

News Orgs from The Guardian to Fox has run stories on the Foreign fights are all these news outlets being decived from extreme left to extreme right your the first person I've heard deny the exist of non-Iraq insurgants fighting in Iraq

[Plekhanov]

So the people we stop every single DAY at the borders ariving in trucks with weapons hidden in everything from washing machines to oil tanks are just our imagination?

Even if there are some foreign fighters in or trying to get into Iraq it does not mean that the resistance is entirely or even largely foreign as you initially claimed.

The folks siting in Gitmo don't exist and are mearly goverment lies?

What the fuck does the presence of a few hundred innocent (as in until proven guilty, remember that concept?) guys languishing without trial in Guantanamo prove? Other than that the current US administration couldn't give a fuck about human rights or even it's own constitution.
Anyway I was under the impression most of them were picked up in Afghanistan not Iraq if so thats a complete red herring.

News Orgs from The Guardian to Fox has run stories

Any chance you could actually link to those stories?

on the Foreign fights are all these news outlets being decived from extreme left to extreme right your the first person I've heard deny the exist of non-Iraq insurgants fighting in Iraq

I don't think that Elfdart was claiming that there are no foreign fighters whatsoever in Iraq just that your claim that the resistance to occupation is due to non-Iraqis is bullshit, which of course it is.

[Mr Bean]

Even if there are some foreign fighters in or trying to get into Iraq it does not mean that the resistance is entirely or even largely foreign as you initially claimed.

The fact that they are feering supplies and fresh arms into the country means they must be stopped, ntm fresh bodies for sucided bombs, the vast majority of people even the most "devote" don't exactly jump at the chance to strap c4 on and ram a car into a roadblock, the much prefer shooting up the roadblock or slowing and firing an RPG at it then running away
I never claimed size or strength mearly that it exists which Elfdart patently denied as propaganda by neocons

What the fuck does the presence of a few hundred innocent (as in until proven guilty, remember that concept?) guys languishing without trial in Guantanamo prove?

Prisoners of War don't fall under the same statues as the bullshit the BA is pulling you won't get any aurgment from me on that the point that they have them and they are there is a mear reforcement of the presance of Foriegn fighters

Any chance you could actually link to those stories?

Agian mearly reforcement of the point that they exist, I'll round up some examples when I'm not at work

on the Foreign fights are all these news outlets being decived from extreme left to extreme right your the first person I've heard deny the exist of non-Iraq insurgants fighting in Iraq
---------------------------
I don't think that Elfdart was claiming that there are no foreign fighters whatsoever in Iraq just that your claim that the resistance to occupation is due to non-Iraqis is bullshit, which of course it is.

Hmm

"Foreign Fighters" is just a bullshit story from neocons who just can't face the fact that when you illegally invade another country, kill a large number of people (many of them civilians), carve up the nation's assets, and anally rape prisoners (including children), the locals tend to get uppity

Emphsis added mine, this is not just implying but strait up saying that is a purely local resistance

[Coyote]

"Foreign Fighters" is just a bullshit story from neocons who just can't face the fact that when you illegally invade another country, kill a large number of people (many of them civilians), carve up the nation's assets, and anally rape prisoners (including children), the locals tend to get uppity. How dare those Iraqis! After all we've done for them! Of course these are the same wankers who said our troops would be greeted with flowers.

Verify, please, especially that which is in color.

[Plekhanov]

Even if there are some foreign fighters in or trying to get into Iraq it does not mean that the resistance is entirely or even largely foreign as you initially claimed.

The fact that they are feering supplies and fresh arms into the country means they must be stopped,

I agree they should be stopped but what has that got to do with your initial bullshit claim?

ntm fresh bodies for sucided bombs, the vast majority of people even the most "devote" don't exactly jump at the chance to strap c4 on and ram a car into a roadblock, the much prefer shooting up the roadblock or slowing and firing an RPG at it then running away

What has any of this got to do with the nationality of those resisting occupation?

I never claimed size or strength mearly that it exists which Elfdart patently denied as propaganda by neocons

Bullshit, you made major claims about “size and strength” in your 1st post in answer to Mikes op (snipped the first part for length):

The subject of this thread is: how long will it take for this situation to change? This certainly gives you an idea of how bad the situation is, when people start covering their faces in case they're identified as working with the US.

you responded

Until such time as prevent the influx of reforceing Foriegn fighters from Sudan, Egypt and most importantly Iran

So in answer to the question 'when will the security situation improve to the extent that allied Iraqi troops no longer have to hide their faces?' you effectively said “when we stop the foreign fighters entering Iraq” you are clearly claiming that the resistance is largely made up of foreign fighters

What the fuck does the presence of a few hundred innocent (as in until proven guilty, remember that concept?) guys languishing without trial in Guantanamo prove?

Prisoners of War don't fall under the same statues as the bullshit the BA is pulling you won't get any aurgment from me on that the point that they have them and they are there is a mear reforcement of the presance of Foriegn fighters

How does the presence of non-Iraqi nationals picked up in AFGANISTAN reinforce your argument that the resistance in IRAQ is largely foreign?

Any chance you could actually link to those stories?

Agian mearly reforcement of the point that they exist, I'll round up some examples when I'm not at work

I look forward to reading them.

on the Foreign fights are all these news outlets being decived from extreme left to extreme right your the first person I've heard deny the exist of non-Iraq insurgants fighting in Iraq
---------------------------
I don't think that Elfdart was claiming that there are no foreign fighters whatsoever in Iraq just that your claim that the resistance to occupation is due to non-Iraqis is bullshit, which of course it is.

Hmm

"Foreign Fighters" is just a bullshit story from neocons who just can't face the fact that when you illegally invade another country, kill a large number of people (many of them civilians), carve up the nation's assets, and anally rape prisoners (including children), the locals tend to get uppity

Emphsis added mine, this is not just implying but strait up saying that is a purely local resistance

Well it seemed to me especially as Elfdart was responding to your bullshit claim that we just needed to seal the borders to create an Iraq in which collaborators won't be scared for their lives. He was denying that “Foreign Fighters” are the primary force behind the resistance as you and the NeoCons behind the war claim not that there's so much as a single foreign national fighting the occupation in the whole of Iraq. Anyway I'm done arguing about what Elfdart said no doubt when he gets back on line he'll more than capable of clarifying things himself.

Till then why don't you actually back up your claims that

1.there are significant numbers of foreign fighters in Iraq resisting the occupation
2.that this is the dominant factor in the resistance
3.that Guantanamo has anything to do with Iraq

[Elfdart]

"Foreign Fighters" is just a bullshit story from neocons who just can't face the fact that when you illegally invade another country, kill a large number of people (many of them civilians), carve up the nation's assets, and anally rape prisoners (including children), the locals tend to get uppity. How dare those Iraqis! After all we've done for them! Of course these are the same wankers who said our troops would be greeted with flowers.

Verify, please, especially that which is in color.

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/croke.php?articleid=3286

In a May 21 piece on the previously unreported witness statements from Abu Ghraib prisoners, the Washington Post reported the account of detainee Kasim Mehaddi Hilas. According to the Post, Hilas, whom American personnel had been beaten, stripped, photographed and threatened with sexual assault, also witnessed a teenage boy being raped in October 2003 at Abu Ghraib by someone the Post identified as "an Army translator."

Curiously, the paragraph following the account begins, "Hilas, like other detainees interviewed by the military, said he could not identify some of the soldiers because they either covered their name patches or did not wear uniforms." The implication is that Hilas did not know the assailant's name.

The Post's website hosts links to the 14 sworn statements taken by Army investigators in January. Hilas' actual statement, excerpted in the Sunday Herald, reveals that Hilas actually did name the assailant, but notes that the soldier's name has been is censored from the report.

In fact, the copy carried on the Post's site shows this deletion to Hilas' statement, which makes no mention of an Army translator, only the rapist: "I saw [deleted] who was wearing the military uniform," adding that a female soldier was taking pictures. This deletion is significant because both his statement and the Post story do name some U.S. personnel involved with abusing adult prisoners.

According to Rolling Stone, Abu Hamid is the name of the translator who raped the teenage boy. "I saw Abu Hamid, who was wearing the military uniform, putting his dick in the little kid's ass," reads Rolling Stone's July 28 story, though the name was not reported by the Sunday Herald weeks later.

The Sunday Herald did report the statement of detainee Thaar Salman Dawod, mentioned in neither the Washington Post's nor Rolling Stone's articles, who recounted his own abuse at Abu Ghraib and said he witnessed "a lot of people getting naked for a few days getting punished in the first days of Ramadan."

According to Dawod's statement – which can be found on the Post's website but was not reported in May – two boys were brought in to the cellblock, naked and "cuffed together face to face, and Graner [Specialist Charles A. Graner, Jr., of the 372nd Military Police Company] was beating them and a group of guards were watching and taking pictures from top and bottom and there was three female soldiers laughing at the prisoners. The prisoners, two of them, were young. I don't know their names."

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/7/14/193750/666

and many more...

Whatever it takes to keep the wolves from biting...

[Imperial Overlord]

To answer Mike's initial question: if we are in the early stages of a civil war, it isn't going to get better, it is going to get worse.

[Elfdart]

People who side with a foreign invader should be fearful. If the invaders are driven out, they are ripe candidates for swine justice from their countrymen, as Quisling in Norway and the Milice in France found out.

[Mr Bean]

I agree they should be stopped but what has that got to do with your initial bullshit claim?

You know if I had make any sort of claim on size and strength you could call bullshit but since all I said was that people show up at the border at the day with arms (Hard numbers are still NS matters and not quotable until released)

What has any of this got to do with the nationality of those resisting occupation?

Sucided bombs are not common Terriost weapons the world over, infact the idea of wearing C4 and becoming a "holy martyer" is relativly localised in a few ME countrys, The Tami, Basques, IRA and other countrys terriosts orgs do not use the same tatics or MOO

I never claimed size or strength mearly that it exists which Elfdart patently denied as propaganda by neocons

Bullshit, you made major claims about “size and strength” in your 1st post in answer to Mikes op (snipped the first part for length):[/quote]

Until such time as prevent the influx of reforceing Foriegn fighters from Sudan, Egypt and most importantly Iran

So in answer to the question 'when will the security situation improve to the extent that allied Iraqi troops no longer have to hide their faces?' you effectively said “when we stop the foreign fighters entering Iraq” you are clearly claiming that the resistance is largely made up of foreign fighters
[/quote]
Emm no, as long as the attacks countinune Iraq stability is in danger, if we can not stop fresh fighters from arriving in country we are not going to win the peace, the Iraq insurgants don't need several thousand armed manics running around, a few hundred small groups of ten or less even if they only attack one thing a month is more than enough to keep the country in chaos and the citizins in fear.

Grasp the simple fact as long as their are new insurgants being feed into the country the peace can not be had

How does the presence of non-Iraqi nationals picked up in AFGANISTAN reinforce your argument that the resistance in IRAQ is largely foreign?

Because not just Afgan PoW are being held there, its a Prison, Its not like in 2003 they said, nope nooo more prisoners, this is as much as we will ever have

I don't think that Elfdart was claiming that there are no foreign fighters whatsoever in Iraq just that your claim that the resistance to occupation is due to non-Iraqis is bullshit, which of course it is.

Which of course I never said so call it as much bullshit as you like, I have never said the FF are the singly only reason in the entire universe why Iraq is in danger, Their are a myraid of things that must be done in Iraq to create a stable socitey(Nevermind Democratic or nessarly Free)

Well it seemed to me especially as Elfdart was responding to your bullshit claim that we just needed to seal the borders to create an Iraq in which collaborators won't be scared for their lives. He was denying that “Foreign Fighters” are the primary force behind the resistance as you and the NeoCons

In the first Elfdart knows what Elfdart says, I don't pretend to be a mind reader but I do happen to know what I think and the fact that I agian never said they are the Primary force behind the resistance

Excuse me for not posting all 5000(BS Number made up to illustrate a poin) various groups behind the insurgancy and just mentioning one group, Shame on me for mentioning one group, must mean they are the only one in the entire world because I mentioned them

And for the second part
Yes I am a neocon, raawr evil neocon, Not know one thing about my party offilation, beliefs or stance on issues you slap a label on me just because I was so wrong as to call on the fact that Forigen fighters are a obscale in the road in Iraq security




[quote
behind the war claim not that there's so much as a single foreign national fighting the occupation in the whole of Iraq.[/quote]
Come agian? I won't say anyting as I'm not sure were your going with this one

Till then why don't you actually back up your claims that
1.there are significant numbers of foreign fighters in Iraq resisting the occupation

Random Number, lets say Twenty, Twenty are sufficent to be significant number if the twenty can blow up two police stations a month, I don't mean to say there are that little or that much mearly pointing out that quality and quanty are two diffrent things... Combined with the fact that The Insurgants in Iraq don't release memebership lists detailing who is a member... And they seem to have stoped claming personal credit for blowing up things

2.that this is the dominant factor in the resistance

If you want me to back that up I kinda have to make the claim first

3.that Guantanamo has anything to do with Iraq

The fact that it holds captured prisoners in TR incidents aborad? Be it Iraq, AFG or elsewhere

[HemlockGrey]

Elf, why I agree with some of your points, surely you aren't comparing Iraqi security forces with freakin' Nazi collaboraters?

[Edi]

Emm no, as long as the attacks countinune Iraq stability is in danger, if we can not stop fresh fighters from arriving in country we are not going to win the peace, the Iraq insurgants don't need several thousand armed manics running around, a few hundred small groups of ten or less even if they only attack one thing a month is more than enough to keep the country in chaos and the citizins in fear.

Grasp the simple fact as long as their are new insurgants being feed into the country the peace can not be had

Bean, the point you missed is that the estimates for the number of foreign fighters range from a few hundred to a couple of thousand, while the estimates for a number of local insurgents range from 20,000 upwards and the actual number is likely a lot more than that (especially since we've seen the insurgents taking casualties in the hundreds or thousands in places like Fallujah without it having much of an impact on the overall security situation). The biggest obstacle in Iraq is not the foreign fighters, it's the portion of the local populace the US has riled up enough to pick up guns (a lot of whom belong to the 400,000 ex-soldiers who were fired without warning a year and a half ago). Focusing on the foreign fighter issue and pretending it is a major factor is a red herring. The true problems are elsewhere.

Elf, why I agree with some of your points, surely you aren't comparing Iraqi security forces with freakin' Nazi collaboraters?

Missed the analogy completely, I see. No, the Iraqi security forces are objectively not equivalent to Nazi collaborators, but in the eyes of the insurgents they are, and that subjective viewpoint is all that matters because it is the one that causes the real world consequences like the families of the security force members being killed. It is NOT difficult to understand.

But perhaps you were operating under the assumption that since the US is not Nazi Germany, everyone naturally will agree that those working with it are not as bad. The problem is that in many circles over there the US is viewed as WORSE than Nazi Germany and the insurgents belong to this group. It is a subjective viewpoint that has nothing to do with objective reality other than in its consequences.

Edi

[HemlockGrey]

Oh, no, I realize that Elfdart was chiefly using it to draw a comparision about the fate awaiting people who cooperate against foreign invaders who lose, and that it probably was simply too difficult to come up with another example, I was just making absolutely sure he didn't find any morale equivalency between the two.

Because, ya know, you never can tell with those damn liberals.

[Coyote]

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/croke.php?articleid=3286

In a May 21 piece on the previously unreported witness statements from Abu Ghraib prisoners, the Washington Post reported the account of detainee Kasim Mehaddi Hilas. According to the Post, Hilas, whom American personnel had been beaten, stripped, photographed and threatened with sexual assault, also witnessed a teenage boy being raped in October 2003 at Abu Ghraib by someone the Post identified as "an Army translator."

Curiously, the paragraph following the account begins, "Hilas, like other detainees interviewed by the military, said he could not identify some of the soldiers because they either covered their name patches or did not wear uniforms." The implication is that Hilas did not know the assailant's name.

The Post's website hosts links to the 14 sworn statements taken by Army investigators in January. Hilas' actual statement, excerpted in the Sunday Herald, reveals that Hilas actually did name the assailant, but notes that the soldier's name has been is censored from the report.

In fact, the copy carried on the Post's site shows this deletion to Hilas' statement, which makes no mention of an Army translator, only the rapist: "I saw [deleted] who was wearing the military uniform," adding that a female soldier was taking pictures. This deletion is significant because both his statement and the Post story do name some U.S. personnel involved with abusing adult prisoners.

According to Rolling Stone, Abu Hamid is the name of the translator who raped the teenage boy. "I saw Abu Hamid, who was wearing the military uniform, putting his dick in the little kid's ass," reads Rolling Stone's July 28 story, though the name was not reported by the Sunday Herald weeks later.

The Sunday Herald did report the statement of detainee Thaar Salman Dawod, mentioned in neither the Washington Post's nor Rolling Stone's articles, who recounted his own abuse at Abu Ghraib and said he witnessed "a lot of people getting naked for a few days getting punished in the first days of Ramadan."

According to Dawod's statement – which can be found on the Post's website but was not reported in May – two boys were brought in to the cellblock, naked and "cuffed together face to face, and Graner [Specialist Charles A. Graner, Jr., of the 372nd Military Police Company] was beating them and a group of guards were watching and taking pictures from top and bottom and there was three female soldiers laughing at the prisoners. The prisoners, two of them, were young. I don't know their names."

Okay, what I got out of that was that the person was either a US soldier, or a civilian contractor, miost likely an Iraqi, being used as a translator. Our civilian translators here frequently wear US uniforms but without nametapes, US Army tapes, unit patches, etc-- just the bare uniform, or sometimes the uniform with Iraqi patches on it.

The different sources don't fully clarify exactly what "Abu Hamid's" exact relationship is with US forces.

There is, in Arabic society, an unfortunate acceptance of using boys for sex, since the Qur'an specifically forbids men to have sex outside of marriage nor are they allowed to lay with men as with women, as it were. But since nothing specifically put boys off limits...

Don't get the impression that I am sticking up for this guy. It sounds like part of the overall Abu Ghraib prison scandal, which is still in investigative processes. We have not yet heard the last of the Abu Ghraib prison situation and the people involved are still being investigated.

If that is so, then this is already known about and already being investigated. If no less an example of luminary journalism as Rolling Stone is investigating it, then I'm sure the courts are already well aware of it.

Since this nasty prediliction is a "useful" part of local society for breaking prisoners, I'd theorize at worst that the US interrogators knew this would probably happen and turned the boy over to Iraqi custody on paper so it would be out of their jurisdiction. The Iraqis could deal with him "their way" then.

If so then it will be one more part of the Abu Ghraib situation which warrants investigation and punishment-- which is already happening. So you are stirring shit that has already been stirred and investigated for the wrongdoing that it is. However, I am sure that you are already of the opinion that this is a normal and routine part of US policy.

Do you have anything new and groundbreaking instead?

[Wicked Pilot]

You could get rid of the foreign fighters and the attacks would still happen with only an argueable drop in intensity. Iraq was like one big Pandora's box and it was only Saddam and his brutality that kept it closed. Unless the police are willing to gas entire cities in retaliation I don't think the situation is going to change soon.

[Darth Wong]

Do you have anything new and groundbreaking instead?

Why does it have to be new and groundbreaking? He made an incendiary statement regarding the current situation, he was asked to provide a source, and he provided his source as requested. Simple situation.

Nowhere did I see an advertisement of that statement as "new" or "groundbreaking".