Europe is beginning to awaken...

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Here is a brilliant critique of the attitudes which lead people to idiotically refuse to condemn such obvious and barbaric violations of human rights.

The Universality of Women's Rights and Post modern Theories

Until the mid-70s, women's rights concepts were not considered as culturally specific and were not divided into eastern or western, rather they were seen as something universal, and secularism and the separation of religion from the state were seen as pre-conditions for women's liberation.

In the mid-70s, the idea of cultural Imperialism became a dominant discourse amongst nationalist/ anti-imperialist intellectuals and political and cultural circles in the west and the so -called Third World countries alike.

The idea of cultural Imperialism supposedly had a progressive and militant guise: as part of the populist struggle in the so-called Third World countries against imperialism. In the Middle Eastern countries, opposition to 'imperialist culture' has been considered as an element of the fight against imperialism. Women have been the victims of the struggle against 'imperialist culture' and "Westernism". This is because women's liberation and women's rights were seen as imperialist and western concepts. Traditionalist, religious and reactionary forces opposed women's liberation in the name of fighting Imperialism and the West.

The idea of cultural Imperialism was the beginning of revising the idea of universality of women's rights. The rise of political Islam and the anti-secularist backlash in the 1980s and 1990s imposed serious setbacks on civil rights especially on women's rights in the so-called Islamic countries. These setbacks laid the framework for the idea that women's rights in the Middle Eastern countries are culturally bound and should be defined according to religious and traditionalist values. This reactionary trend stamped on the concepts of women's rights and equality in those societies in Ideology, thoughts and discourse.

During the 1990s, post-modern theories particularly the theories of identity politics and cultural relativism, became the dominant discourse in academia and various Middle Eastern study centres in the West. Under the guise of avoiding orientalism, racism and Euro-centerism, these theories have justified and continue to justify the attacks on women's rights, and have been haunting studies of the Middle East and particularly the study of women's experiences in various Middle Eastern countries.

Post-modern theories emerged in the 1980s; at the time of the rise of conservatism, the attacks of capitalist market economy, the international ideological shifts and imbalances, the anti-secularist backlash and the rise of political Islam. These theories were the by-products of a time of uncertainty, darkness, setbacks and backlash.

Post-modern theories have increasingly questioned the project of Enlightenment. These theories criticize the ideals of truth, rationality, system, foundation, certainty and coherence. They refute a universal view on history, the world, and society as a whole and believe in fragmentation and differences, since according to these views, the history of humanity does not evolve in a universal direction toward modern and secularist norms and values. These theories doubt system and a universal truth, and base their essence on differences and fragmentation. From this standpoint the history has reached to its end, modernism failed to achieve its commitments, and secularism and universalism, all became empty words and terms. According to post-modern views, the dichotomy of oppressed and oppressor, oppressive regimes and people under their rule, backward cultural and religious values and women's liberation, are invalid and do not exist anymore.

These theories tell us that the universality of women's rights, modernity and secularism are all products of the evolution of western societies and therefore inapplicable and incompatible to non-western societies where indigenous cultural and religious values and norms are different than the West. Therefore, dominant secularist ideologies must be questioned and resisted where the viable traditions of social organization such as Islam can lay the framework for a more humane and egalitarian society.

John Esposito formulates this view as follows: "At a time when the ideology of capitalism has desacralised all of human life for the sake of a destructive acquisitiveness, the need to open up non-capitalist spaces is more urgent than ever. The insistence on establishing alternative social imagery sakes Islam appears as the perennial threats it has always been. Especially because Islam may well be the most authentic voice of the South in its struggle against the western inspired and racially informed hegemonic aims of trans-national capital. Whatever the case, it has become quite clear that the nationalist secularist model of the post- independence period has utterly failed to emancipate the people and is now seen as a dismal failure."

And he continues: "Secularism is not a separation between religion and the state, as propagated in both western and Arab writing. Rather, it is the removal of absolute values-epistemological and ethical- from the world such that the entire world-humanity and nature alike- becomes merely a utilitarian object to be utilised and subjugated. From this standpoint, we can see the structural similarity between the secular epistemological vision and the imperialist epistemological vision. We can also realize that imperialism is no more than the exporting of a secular and epistemological paradigm from the western world, where it first emerged to the rest of the world."

According to identity politics and cultural relativism, women's quest for legal, political and economic equality is considered as culturally specific. It permits the justification of practices that oppress and dehumanise women in non- western cultures, when similar practices would be condemned as outrageous, unacceptable and barbaric in western culture.

What is disturbing in reflecting women's demands and struggle in the study of and by women in the Middle East is the attempt to refute women's rights concepts and theories altogether as western ideas and incompatible to women's situation in non- western countries. The suggestion is that the ideas of women's rights and equality essentially functioned to provide moral justification for the attack on native societies or their indigenous culture and traditions.

The pressure on women living in the Middle Eastern countries to denounce concepts of women's rights as western, as ethnic specific and irrelevant to non- western contexts is one of the destructive and damaging consequences of these views. Sometimes even the previously accepted minimal elements of women's rights in a non- western context are called into question. For example Patricia Higgins suggested that the plight of women in Iran concern only middle - and upper - class women, implying that the horrendous consequences of Islam in power were not significant for most Iranian women.

Others have questioned maturity of Middle Eastern societies, and their women to enjoy such rights as sexual equality. Juliette Minces has argued that they are not ready "to undergo an emancipation which throws into question a non - secular equilibrium which has the full backing of religion"

One dramatic example is the silence of feminists in the West in face of systematic suppression of women's basic human rights in Iran and countries under the rule of Islamic regimes and under the pressure of Islamic movements. Another example is the denial of asylum rights to people especially women fleeing oppression and gender-based persecution such as honour killing, forced marriage, stoning to death, veil and other Islamic practices and oppressive customs, under the name of respecting indigenous culture and religion. The third example is the way Western governments and their judicial systems treat the basic human rights of women and girls in the Islamic families and Islamic communities in the West, in face of forced marriage, honour killing, imposing the veil on girls under 16 which deprives them from social activities and enjoying their basic rights.

Presumably what is happening to women in those countries and communities is what they deserve and is more than enough for them. Why should geographic borders and the oppressive ruling reactionary culture and religion make what is conceived as oppressive in one culture an acceptable cultural norm in another? In fact none of women's rights would have existed in the West if the concept of women's equality were defined as and limited to Christian values and backward Victorian norms in Europe. Cultural relativism suggests that it is not acceptable to criticise the misogynist, sexist and derogatory religious and nationalistic culture and traditions that have been preserved, celebrated and reproduced as part of an untouchable national or cultural heritage generation after generation. If Islamic beliefs and the indigenous national culture in the Middle Eastern countries are not oppressive and therefore important barriers against development in women's rights and liberation, why are women's individual rights and social position worse in those countries than anywhere else?

The conceptual frameworks laid by identity politics and cultural relativism prevent many western intellectuals including women's rights activists from seeing and appreciating the diversified women's movements in the Middle East. The hegemonic influence of the western image of Middle Eastern women as veiled, obedient, subservient and backward, overshadows the mounting evidence of their intellectual, cultural and political changes in the region. This distorted understanding of women's life experiences, concerns and expectations is reproduced and repeated in this stereotype. The idea is that, because socio - economic problems are more pronounced in the region and because traditionalist gender roles and male dominance are more rigidly maintained and reproduced, issues of concern to western women such as freedom from sexual oppression and women's complete equality with men are irrelevant to Middle Eastern women.

*****************

Identity politics and cultural relativism are covers to create a comprehensive social, legal, intellectual, emotional, geographical and civil apartheid based on distinctions of race, ethnicity, religion and gender. This complete system of apartheid attacks women's basic rights and freedom and justifies savagery and barbarism inflicted on women by Islamic movements and Islamic governments in the region.

The idea of women's liberation and equality for women is a universal one. There should not be any cultural or religious restriction on it. Any attempt to restrict these rights in the name of culture and identity and religion, or defining freedom and equality according to different cultures and religions, puts a major obstacle in the way of women's liberation.

Egalitarianism, secularism and modernism are important elements of people's values and experiences in the Middle Eastern countries. The efforts made by women in those countries to struggle for a secularist family law in Egypt, Lebanon and Morocco, in Sudan to secure women's employment in a mixed public sphere, women's struggle in Jordan to abolish the law of honour-killing, Kuwaiti women's fight for getting the right to vote and the most significant of all, women's movement in Iran are all the signs of a powerful egalitarian and secularist women's movement in the region. The development of this powerful movement would definitively shake the basis of these societies and revolutionaries men and women's lives alike.

Total failure of post- modern theories is one of the significant consequences of this movement's advancement. While women are fighting against traditionalist, religious and reactionary laws, rules and customs, there would be no legitimacy and space for these theories to justify the reactionary and misogynist religion and culture under the name of closure, expansion, linguistic turn, discourse, and dichotomy, identity politics, and cultural relativism.

Women's rights are universal and women's liberation can only be achieved under an egalitarian, progressive and secularist form of government. These are the basic prerequisites of women's liberation in the Middle Eastern countries. These are what women and progressive movements in those societies struggling and fighting for.
References:

S. Best & D. Kellner, Post-modern Theory. MacMillan, London, 1991

Esposito, J. The Islamic Threat: Myth or Reality? Oxford & New York: Oxford University Press, 1992.

P. Higgins, Women in the Islamic Republic of Iran: Legal, Social and Ideological Changes, in Signs: Journal of Women in Culture and Society. 10,31 (1998)

J. Minces, The House of Obedience. London & New Jersey. Zed Books, 1982.

Azam Kamguian's speech in the First Annual Conference of the Middle Eastern Centre for Women's Studies - 10th December 2000 - London, England

[Peregrin Toker]

Similar views can be heard across traditionally tolerant Scandinavia ? and no longer just from the populist rightwing party?s such as Pia Kjaersgaard?s People?s Party in Denmark. The centre-right Government of Anders Fogh Rasmussen, has equipped Denmark with Europe?s toughest curbs on immigration, largely aimed at people from Muslim countries.

As a Dane myself, I feel obliged to inform you that though it is the case that Denmark's immigration laws have become stricter recently, it has nothing to do with religion. The reason the gov't have done this is that the immigrants which currently are in Denmark haven't been fully integrated into the economy.

[Coyote]

“If you insult Islam, you have to pay,” was a typical response.

Yes, lets let those scumfucks walk around Europe unfettered,
and allow them to bring in more and more and more of their own
ilk! What a remarkable way to preserve the Europe we all know
as a place of tolerance for other peoples and cultures!

Substitute the word "Jew" or "Gypsy" for "Muslim" and Sheepfucker's ravings read like the fappings of Julius Streicher. That last paragraph is a doozy. [/quote]


Well, after all those times that someone said "If you insult the Gypsies, you have to pay!" or, "If you insult the Jews, you have to pay!", then I gues it all makes sense...

Oh, waitaminit....

[Keevan_Colton]

Well, after all those times that someone said "If you insult the Gypsies, you have to pay!" or, "If you insult the Jews, you have to pay!", then I gues it all makes sense...

Oh, waitaminit....

Mossad and the Evil Eye

[Elfdart]

Concession accepted, Coyote. Yours too, Colton.

[Keevan_Colton]

Concession accepted, Coyote. Yours too, Colton.

You're welcome to it. I'm on the same side as you anyway

[Dahak]

“The notion of multiculturalism has fallen apart,” said Angela Merkel, leader of Germany’s Christian Democrat opposition. “Anyone coming here must respect our constitution and tolerate our Western and Christian roots.”

merkel is an idiot. it´s always been like this. everybody HAS to respect the constitution. and everybody HAS to tolerate western and christian roots.

Some time not so long ago, you'd be branded as a Nazi for saying things like that.
IT is only now that even the left starts discussing it. Before that, our vaunted "mulicultural society" was a holy cow and nobody wanted a discussion about it.

[Illuminatus Primus]

And that why your culture is disturbingly limp-wristed and weak, and I fear the encroachment of aggressive, strong cultures (however barbaric) like Islam.

Its good that you guys are finally waking up though.

[Coyote]

**snicker**

[The Duchess of Zeon]

You're welcome to it. I'm on the same side as you anyway ;)

I do believe that you may be our first friendly-fire debating casualty.

[Elfdart]

Shit.

Every so often I should remind myself that not everyone is as bitter and sarcastic as I am.

[MKSheppard]

That last paragraph is a doozy.

Care to comment on Stravo's own take on this Elfpenis?

I whole heartedly agree with this. The Islamic fanatics are a breed that must be stomped out of existence of possible, if not ship 'em back home and let them live in their beloved 13th century squalor. They will soon become the major source of strife in the civilized world because of this fucking love affair they have with the ancient past.

The Western world lets these fuckers in to join in the party and their like the pissy girl that comes with the cute one and poo poos everything about the party and how it isn't right. Save that this bitch cuts people's heads off when given half a chance.

The West is facing a group that just does not want to assimiated. In fact these little shits want to be supported in their rights to live seperate lives yet profit from living in the West. They use the system of liberal democracy in order to create fucking enclaves of seperate but equalness with overall goals of taking over and making the west into little Afghanistans - spitting in the face of one of the foundations of the Koran - making every muslim a good citizen of whatever nation he lives in.

Fuck you. Let Allah provide for your fucking asses and let the rest of us get to progressing you fuckwit fascist morons.

[Elfdart]

That last paragraph is a doozy.

Care to comment on Stravo's own take on this Elfpenis?

I whole heartedly agree with this. The Islamic fanatics are a breed that must be stomped out of existence of possible, if not ship 'em back home and let them live in their beloved 13th century squalor. They will soon become the major source of strife in the civilized world because of this fucking love affair they have with the ancient past.

The Western world lets these fuckers in to join in the party and their like the pissy girl that comes with the cute one and poo poos everything about the party and how it isn't right. Save that this bitch cuts people's heads off when given half a chance.

The West is facing a group that just does not want to assimiated. In fact these little shits want to be supported in their rights to live seperate lives yet profit from living in the West. They use the system of liberal democracy in order to create fucking enclaves of seperate but equalness with overall goals of taking over and making the west into little Afghanistans - spitting in the face of one of the foundations of the Koran - making every muslim a good citizen of whatever nation he lives in.

Fuck you. Let Allah provide for your fucking asses and let the rest of us get to progressing you fuckwit fascist morons.

See above.

[MKSheppard]

See above.

So you've caused yet another friendly-fire casualty, eh Elfie?

[Elfdart]

See above.

So you've caused yet another friendly-fire casualty, eh Elfie?

Are you trying to be funny, Sheepshagger?

[Thinkmarble]

Some time not so long ago, you'd be branded as a Nazi for saying things like that.
IT is only now that even the left starts discussing it. Before that, our vaunted "mulicultural society" was a holy cow and nobody wanted a discussion about it.

In which weird warped FRG do you live ?

[His Divine Shadow]

Well I'm certainly thankfull for strict finnish immigration laws whenever I look at the clusterfuck in sweden.

[His Divine Shadow]

Those bastards teaching that nonbelievers will “rot in the fires of hell” why can't they learn from their Christian countrymen who's priests who never say anything like that and who's religion is in no way based upon the exact same principle

Okay, what kind of defense is that? How does that excuse, in any way, the intolerance and hatred of extreme Islam toward non-Muslims or Muslims who don't share their views?

What intolerance and hatred beyond that relayed in pretty much every Christian Church ever (save for the non-evangelical branch of the CofE in the UK which no longer claims a monopoly on the truth) is evident in the statement “Germans can only expect to rot in the fires of hell because they are nonbelievers”?

The belief that nonbelievers will burn is a central tenet of Christianity and you could “secretly film” any number priests, vicars or whatever making equivalent statements, you would seem to live in Florida try listening to some Christian radio or watching some Christian TV or maybe visit a church and you will here the exact same message as that Imam's, unless you're as outraged by your your local evangelists as you are by this particular German Imam then you're a damn hypocrite.[/quote]
Well you are dragging up an irrelevant issue here, christianity has nothing todo with this, even though it's just as fucking disgusting as islam is.

[His Divine Shadow]

The French fucked up by making a big deal over the head scarf. They could have left it alone and let peer pressure run its course and before you know it, all those Arab, Berber, Iranian and Turkish girls would be shopping for Fuck Me Pumps. If the Euros learn from France's fuck-up, they won't try to ram their culture down the throats of immigrants. It always backfires.

When europe squeezes immigration to a halt it has learned.

[Wired_Grenadier]

Some time not so long ago, you'd be branded as a Nazi for saying things like that.
IT is only now that even the left starts discussing it. Before that, our vaunted "mulicultural society" was a holy cow and nobody wanted a discussion about it.

In which weird warped FRG do you live ?

In the real one. And it is as he said it.

[Plekhanov]

Quit trying to associate Stravo with your own delusional ravings Shep, he aims his comments at “Islamic fanatics” not all muslims a qualification he later clarified further in the thread you took his post out of context from here:

*snip*

Agreed. Just make sure they attack the Islamofascists, not innocent Muslims.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Innocent muslims have been living amongst us for quite some time. Hardworking, dedicated and fully invested in making sure they and especially their children fit into this society. It's this new breed of scum oozing out of the ME that just pisses me off.

and here:

No no, let's be clear here. I agree with the harsher anti immigrant policies being planned according to the end of the article. I will never condone the bombing of any instituion like a school or a church. That's absurd. We would be no better than these morons.

Stravo clearly differentiates between “ Hardworking, dedicated” ”Innocent muslims” who make efforts to integrate from Islamofascists and in stark contrast to you he states “I will never condone the bombing of any instituion like a school or a church.” because “We would be no better than these morons.”.

You on the other hand speak of 'Islam' as monolith the adherents of which need to be wiped out in “interlocking claws of death” because of the “problem the Islamic world poses to civilisation?”. Sentiments Stravo has declared his disgust at in the past because unlike you he isn't a genocidal fuck with a with us or against us, black and white world view.

Okay, what kind of defense is that? How does that excuse, in any way, the intolerance and hatred of extreme Islam toward non-Muslims or Muslims who don't share their views?

What intolerance and hatred beyond that relayed in pretty much every Christian Church ever (save for the non-evangelical branch of the CofE in the UK which no longer claims a monopoly on the truth) is evident in the statement “Germans can only expect to rot in the fires of hell because they are nonbelievers”?

The belief that nonbelievers will burn is a central tenet of Christianity and you could “secretly film” any number priests, vicars or whatever making equivalent statements, you would seem to live in Florida try listening to some Christian radio or watching some Christian TV or maybe visit a church and you will here the exact same message as that Imam's, unless you're as outraged by your your local evangelists as you are by this particular German Imam then you're a damn hypocrite.

Well you are dragging up an irrelevant issue here, christianity has nothing todo with this, even though it's just as fucking disgusting as islam is.

Germany is a nominally Christian country one of the major political parties there is the Christian Democrats it's entirely appropriate to point out the double standard of Christians being outraged by a mirror image of their own faith. My point is that unless Christian services were also secretly filmed and people up and down Germany were similarly disgusted by the hateful messages being spouted by priests then the people behind the program are dangerously lacking in self awareness at best and race baiting at worst.

[Wired_Grenadier]

I have yet to see a single priest, be he Protestant or Catholic, to preach anything coming even close to that. You seem to have a rather twisted view of what christianity nowadays is in central european nations. Fire and brimstone haven't been preached where I live since the 2nd Council...

[Plekhanov]

I have yet to see a single priest, be he Protestant or Catholic, to preach anything coming even close to that. You seem to have a rather twisted view of what christianity nowadays is in central european nations. Fire and brimstone haven't been preached where I live since the 2nd Council...

Do you mean to say you really never heard a Christian say that non-believers go to hell? You never heard a Catholic say that theirs' is the only true Church and that they are the gate keepers between heaven and earth? If so what do you think is the point of confession? Did you never wonder what people who've been “saved” think they've been saved from? Fire and brimstone rhetoric may not be as popular as it once was (except in some evangelical churches of course) so what? That's just a change in style like it or not in substance in this regard Christianity and Islam are more or less the same.

I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

That's John 14:6 a popular verse even amongst moderate British Churches, they might dress it up in nicer language (not that they really have a choice, us Brits wouldn't really stand for anything else) but the message is still clear, believe in God, follow all his crappy rules and praise him constantly to boost his fragile ego or to quote the imam you “can only expect to rot in the fires of hell”.

[Wired_Grenadier]

Do you mean to say you really never heard a Christian say that non-believers go to hell?

Yep.

You never heard a Catholic say that theirs' is the only true Church and that they are the gate keepers between heaven and earth?

Yep.

If so what do you think is the point of confession?

No idea, I have never seen anyone do it nor done it myself.

Fire and brimstone rhetoric may not be as popular as it once was (except in some evangelical churches of course) so what? That's just a change in style like it or not in substance in this regard Christianity and Islam are more or less the same.

I don't see how they can be the same when they do not transport the same message, be it in "substance" or "style".

I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

That's John 14:6 a popular verse even amongst moderate British Churches, they might dress it up in nicer language (not that they really have a choice, us Brits wouldn't really stand for anything else) but the message is still clear, believe in God, follow all his crappy rules and praise him constantly to boost his fragile ego or to quote the imam you “can only expect to rot in the fires of hell”.[/quote]
There's a slight difference between saying "lead a virtues life and you'll end up in heaven, or else..!" and "those stinking Germans will rot in hell because they are infidels no matter what, and I'll add a couple more tirades against them and their culture". Organized Christian churches do not preach inter-religious hatred in Germany, they do not preach against our liberal and democratic society, and above everything else, they do not serve as safe-havens and recruitment centers for "holy warriors" who plot to overthrow the open European societies, as meager as their successes at the moment might still be. Christian churches are ironically perfect parts of the rather secular German society; muslim religious communities have created their own parallel societies over here, where not the state's authorities are in charge but the "hodja" has say.

You are making it very easy for yourself by just saying: "But christianity also does...." So, even if they did -what they don't- so what? They are not the problem!!! I have yet to see a christian community in Germany to be observed by the Verfassungschutz...

[Elfdart]

I'm not so sure about the inevitability of integration. Just look at "black culture," if anything, it is continously seperating itself from typical "american culture".

That's because blacks have been the most hated minority group in the US for a very long time. They were pissed on for so long that a number of them have no interest whatsoever of entering the mainstream. Another thing to keep in mind that an Italian-American, for example could change his name and the way he talks, etc and fit into the mainstream society. A black person who did that is a...