8 Soldiers sueing Government over Stop Loss

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
Stravo
Official SD.Net Teller of Tales
Posts: 12806
Joined: 2002-07-08 12:06pm
Location: NYC

8 Soldiers sueing Government over Stop Loss

Post by Stravo »

Eight Soldiers Sue Over Army’s Stop-Loss Policy

By MONICA DAVEY, The New York Times


MORRILTON, Ark. (Dec. 3) - The eight soldiers come from places scattered across the country, from this small town an hour northwest of Little Rock to cities in Arizona, New Jersey and New York. In Iraq and Kuwait, where they all work now, most of them hold different jobs in different units, miles apart. Most have never met.

But the eight share a bond of anger: each says he has been prevented from coming home for good by an Army policy that has barred thousands of soldiers from leaving Iraq this year even though the terms of enlistment they signed up for have run out. And each of these eight soldiers has separately taken the extraordinary step of seeking legal help, through late-night Internet searches and e-mail inquiries from their camps in the conflict zone, or through rounds of phone calls by an equally frustrated wife or mother back home.

With legal support from the Center for Constitutional Rights, a liberal-leaning public interest group, lawyers for the eight men say they will file a lawsuit on Monday in federal court in Washington challenging the Army policy known as stop-loss.

Last spring, the Army instituted the policy for all troops headed to Iraq and Afghanistan, called it a way to promote continuity within deployed units and to avoid bringing new soldiers in to fill gaps left in units by those who would otherwise have gone home when their enlistments ran out. If a soldier's unit is still in Iraq or Afghanistan, that soldier cannot leave even when his or her enlistment time runs out.

Since then, a handful of National Guardsmen who received orders to report for duty in California and Oregon have taken the policy to court, but the newest lawsuit is the first such challenge by a group of soldiers. And these soldiers are already overseas - transporting supplies, working radio communications and handling military contracts, somewhere in the desert.


The Stop-Loss Debate


"I served five months past my one-year obligation and I feel that it's time to let me go back to my wife.''
-- David W. Qualls, plaintiff

"If someone next to you is new, it can be dangerous. The bottom line of this is unit cohesion. This way, the units deploy together, train together, fight together and come home together."
-- Lt. Col. Pamela Hart, Army spokeswoman

"The courts have traditionally ceded to the military. Even if the gents win at the trial level, the government is not going to quit. They cannot afford to. There is a potential cascade effect here." -- Gary D. Solis, West Point law instructor

Sources: AP, The New York Times


"You should know I'm not against the war," said David W. Qualls, one of the plaintiffs and a former full-time soldier who signed up in July 2003 for a one-year stint in the Arkansas National Guard but now expects to be in Iraq until next year.

"This just isn't about that. This is a matter of fairness. My job was to go over and perform my duties under the contract I signed. But my year is up and it's been up. Now I believe that they should honor their end of the contract." Some military experts described the soldiers' challenge as both surprising and telling, given the tenor of military life, where soldiers are trained throughout their careers to follow their commanders' orders.

These soldiers' public objections are only the latest signs of rising tension within the ranks. In October, members of an Army Reserve unit refused a mission, saying it was too dangerous. And in recent months, some members of the Individual Ready Reserve, many of whom say they thought they had finished their military careers, have objected to being called back to war and requested exemptions.

Mr. Qualls, 35, who says he sometimes speaks his mind even to his superiors, is the only one among the eight whose real name will appear on the lawsuit against the Army's military leaders. The rest, who fear retribution from the Army - including more dangerous assignments in Iraq - are described only as John Does 1 through 7.

Aside from the shared expectation that they would have gone home by now, these soldiers' situations could not be more varied, as interviews with their families made clear.

One is a member of an Army band, ordered to travel Iraq this year performing music. Another is an Army reservist in a New Jersey transportation company with 18 years of service behind him. Another is an Arizona National Guardsman in his 20's, whose wife says he sounded subdued, even tearful, when she spoke to him in recent days on a phone line from Kuwait.

"The whole morale in his unit is on the floor," she said on the condition that she not be named, to avoid revealing her husband's identity.

Although Army officials said they could not comment on a lawsuit, particularly one they had not yet seen, they described the stop-loss policy, which was first instituted during the first Persian Gulf war more than a decade ago, as a crucial lesson learned in Vietnam, where troops were rotated out just as they had become acclimated to a treacherous environment.

"If someone next to you is new, it can be dangerous," said Lt. Col. Pamela Hart, an Army spokeswoman. "The bottom line of this is unit cohesion. This way, the units deploy together, train together, fight together and come home together."

Some soldiers like Mr. Qualls, though, say they wonder if the rule is not just another way to keep troop numbers high, particularly at a time when the military has been stretched thin and the number of troops in Iraq is expected to rise still more, to 150,000, in the coming weeks.

In recent months, at any given moment, the stop-loss policy has affected about 7,000 soldiers who had been planning to retire, leave the military or move to a different military job. The rule affects soldiers whose enlistments are scheduled to end within 90 days before their unit is deployed, those already deployed, and those whose term would end up to 90 days after their unit returns. On Friday, Army officials said they did not know the total number who had been affected so far. No date has been announced to end the policy.

Jules Lobel, a lawyer for one of the eight soldiers, described the central complaint this way: They were fraudulently induced to sign up, Mr. Lobel said, because nothing in their enlistment contract mentioned that they might be involuntarily kept on.

But experts not involved in the case say the government has generally been granted broad legal authority when it comes to the obligations of soldiers in matters of national security and times of conflict.

"The courts have traditionally ceded to the military," said Gary D. Solis, who teaches law at the United States Military Academy at West Point. "Even if the gents win at the trial level, the government is not going to quit. They cannot afford to. There is a potential cascade effect here."

Phillip Carter, a former Army captain and an expert in military and legal issues, said: "Rarely have we seen people win such cases. At best, this is symbolic protest."

The soldiers and their families, however, say they do not see it that way. Their hopes are far more practical. They want to go home.

Mr. Qualls was one of the first soldiers to find Mr. Lobel and Staughton Lynd, another lawyer now working with the Center for Constitutional Rights on the case and whose antiwar activities date to the Vietnam era. As Mr. Qualls wandered the Internet one day in Iraq, he said, he came across news reports of a National Guardsman in California who this summer had become the first to challenge stop-loss in court.

Mr. Qualls said he immediately began sending e-mail messages that guardsman's lawyer, Michael S. Sorgen, and was eventually referred to Mr. Lynd and Mr. Lobel, who were separately beginning to hear from other soldiers who had found them in recent weeks in a variety of ways.

Some of the soldiers e-mailed or called the National Lawyers Guild Military Law Task Force or the G. I. Rights hot line and were referred to the lawyers, Mr. Lynd said. The wife of one soldier said she handled all the research for his case herself, studying his enlistment contract and newspaper clippings and finally coming across Mr. Lynd's name. And a 54-year-old mother from Long Island said she began making calls on her son's behalf, first to her representatives in Congress and later to anyone she could find.

"My son," she said, "is not someone afraid to follow orders and fulfill his obligation. He's a very compliant soldier, but he feels like he's being stabbed in the back."

One soldier's wife, from New York City, said she received an e-mail message from Military Families Speak Out, an antiwar group, about the possibility of a lawsuit, and urged her husband to be part of it.

Asked whether antiwar forces were instigating this lawsuit, Mr. Lobel, who like his co-counsel describes himself as openly opposed to the war in Iraq, laughed and said no. The soldiers and their families came on their own, he said.


"They were desperately looking for some way to solve their situations, and it looks like most of the people they found who were trying to counsel or represent people in their situation were antiwar people," Mr. Lobel said. "But to me, the most interesting aspect of this whole thing is that it's not a question of antiwar or pro-war. It's not a question of red states or blue states. This stop-loss question is just about fairness."

As part of a rest-and-relaxation leave allowed some soldiers, Mr. Qualls arrived at his modest Morrilton home just in time for Thanksgiving supper with his wife, Cheryl, and their daughter, Kelly.

Seated at his computer on Friday, he fiddled with a pen as he pondered whether he might face retribution for taking legal action, something he says he told his unit commanders nothing about before he left. He said his family had struggled financially and emotionally with him gone, and he has to put them first now.

"The other thing," Mr. Qualls said, "is you've got thousands of people over there in the same situation as me and somebody's got to do something. Why not have it be me? I can't worry about what people will say."

Mr. Qualls is due back at his radio post on a base north of Baghdad this coming weekend. He said he hoped a judge would issue a temporary restraining order and allow him to stay home. But if he loses, he said, he will get on that plane.


Dec. 3, 2004
Hmm...interesting tactic, approach the Stop Loss from a contractual angle. Fraudulent inducement requires that that you prove the other side knew what they were saying or doing was flase. You relied on what they promised to induce you to sign the contract and you suffered a harm or loss when the fraud was revealed.

I can see the requirements being satisfied with the facts on hand, but still there is an overwhelming and compelling state and national security issue that as one guy noted in this article the courts have always bowed to the government on these issues.

If the courts uphold this it cold prove to be very interesting to see what the government does in response. I didn't realise the stop loss policy dates back to the Gulf War. I always assumed it was a beast of the COld War.

Makes you wonder though, as large as our military is whether this relatively small force can fight an extended War in Europe style of war for extended period of times. We seem to be constantly running into manpower shortages. We can't seem to scrape together enough troops to occupy one nation let alone the kind of fighting we would see on the Korean peninsula. I assume the Pentagon gave up the ghost on the two major theatres policy.
Wherever you go, there you are.

Ripped Shirt Monkey - BOTMWriter's Guild Cybertron's Finest Justice League
This updated sig brought to you by JME2
Image
User avatar
MKSheppard
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Posts: 29842
Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm

Re: 8 Soldiers sueing Government over Stop Loss

Post by MKSheppard »

Stravo wrote:We can't seem to scrape together enough troops to occupy one nation let alone the kind of fighting we would see on the Korean peninsula.
Or we could just call up those billion national guard units which have never
been mobilized since WWII or even Korea.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
User avatar
Aaron
Blackpowder Man
Posts: 12031
Joined: 2004-01-28 11:02pm
Location: British Columbian ExPat

Re: 8 Soldiers sueing Government over Stop Loss

Post by Aaron »

MKSheppard wrote: Or we could just call up those billion national guard units which have never
been mobilized since WWII or even Korea.
Aren't the National Guard and the Reserves the same thing? If not than how many levels of Reservists does the US have?
M1891/30: A bad day on the range is better then a good day at work.
Image
User avatar
frigidmagi
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2962
Joined: 2004-04-14 07:05pm
Location: A Nice Dry Place

Post by frigidmagi »

They are not the same thing. National Guard units answer to the state and can be activated by the state governor. Reserves are answerable to the federal government and part of the federal military organization.
Image
User avatar
Aaron
Blackpowder Man
Posts: 12031
Joined: 2004-01-28 11:02pm
Location: British Columbian ExPat

Post by Aaron »

frigidmagi wrote:They are not the same thing. National Guard units answer to the state and can be activated by the state governor. Reserves are answerable to the federal government and part of the federal military organization.
So why the two different systems? Wouldn't the US be better served if the Reserves absorbed the National Guard? Then the manpower shortage wouldn't be so severe.
M1891/30: A bad day on the range is better then a good day at work.
Image
User avatar
The Kernel
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7438
Joined: 2003-09-17 02:31am
Location: Kweh?!

Post by The Kernel »

Cpl Kendall wrote:
frigidmagi wrote:They are not the same thing. National Guard units answer to the state and can be activated by the state governor. Reserves are answerable to the federal government and part of the federal military organization.
So why the two different systems? Wouldn't the US be better served if the Reserves absorbed the National Guard? Then the manpower shortage wouldn't be so severe.
My understanding of it is that the Governor of a state needs to power to be able to activate National Guard units for deployment inside the state in an emergency. If it was controlled by the federal government, then the states might get shafted during an emergency and not get the required amount of aid.
User avatar
frigidmagi
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2962
Joined: 2004-04-14 07:05pm
Location: A Nice Dry Place

Post by frigidmagi »

The National Guard are useful for service during durences at home. For example, tornado levels town? Send the National Guard. Flooding threathening several towns? Send the National Guard. Riots? Send the National Guard.

I wouldn't want to use them has combat troops, they train on weekends only and have worst equipment than the reserves.
Image
User avatar
Stark
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 36169
Joined: 2002-07-03 09:56pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Post by Stark »

What are the attitude of servicemen to this sort of thing? Legally, of course, these men are right, and they should win. However, when they joined the military you could feel that they'd taken on responsibilies and can't just leave whenever they want to. Frankly, I think something like this would do bad things to the professionalism of the army, since the force doesn't mean what it says. Shouldn't the contract have has a 'unless there's a war on' clause?
User avatar
White Haven
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6360
Joined: 2004-05-17 03:14pm
Location: The North Remembers, When It Can Be Bothered

Post by White Haven »

Even if they're bounced by the courts, the /wording/ of the judge's decision will be quite, quite interesting to read. Will it try to completely exonerate the government, will it take a 'lesser of two evils' approach, or whatever. Be interesting to keep an eye on.
Image
Image
Chronological Incontinence: Time warps around the poster. The thread topic winks out of existence and reappears in 1d10 posts.

Out of Context Theatre, this week starring Darth Nostril.
-'If you really want to fuck with these idiots tell them that there is a vaccine for chemtrails.'

Fiction!: The Final War (Bolo/Lovecraft) (Ch 7 9/15/11), Living (D&D, Complete)Image
User avatar
frigidmagi
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2962
Joined: 2004-04-14 07:05pm
Location: A Nice Dry Place

Post by frigidmagi »

Legally my ass, Stop Loss is covered under the inactive reserve clause, if they want you during the next 4 years after your term, they got you. I don't have a damn job either don't see me sueing the Marines.
Image
User avatar
Knife
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15769
Joined: 2002-08-30 02:40pm
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain

Post by Knife »

Ah, good. More 'I didn't sign up to fight, I joined the reserves!' crap. :roll:

A standard active contract is for eight years. Most people believe its four, but the contract is eight. Usually four active and four reserve *IR* though some opt to go for reserve instead of inactive reserve.

A pure reserve contract (and I might be wrong since its been a while, Greg or Coyote can smack me straight if I'm wrong) is eight years too, all reserve.

I really don't see a legal standing.

As I mentioned in another thread, I see the change in the reserves as a good thing. The coming invasion of the US is NOT going to happen, so having a shit load of reserves sitting here getting college money is a waste. The change from 'emergency reserve' to just a reserve unit will be hard on some of these guys who did it for college or benifits or just out of a bit of patriotism, but I think its for the best.

Recruitment for the reserves might go down a lot, no longer a free ride, but even then, I believe its for the best. The reserves should be just that, not a Federal College Grant.

Oh, and quite whinning about going home to your loved ones. Every swinging dick over there and in every damn war had a loved one to go home to. You're not unique, and you just sound fucking whinney! :evil:
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
User avatar
TrailerParkJawa
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5850
Joined: 2002-07-04 11:49pm
Location: San Jose, California

Post by TrailerParkJawa »

I think some of the complaints are from Reservists who just wanted college money, but there is a greater issue at hand. Anyone see 60 minutes last night? They are calling up officers and NCO's who are beyond their 8 years because the military says they never resigned. Also, if they simply keep everyone it is a way of avoiding the "D" word since we are going to need significant numbers of boots on the ground in Iraq for a long time.

If you are done with your 8 years, you are done. I do agree with not rotating out individuals. If they are in Iraq and their 8 years are up, then I think it is reasonable to keep them there until the rotate back. Upon that rotation however, they should be released.
MEMBER of the Anti-PETA Anti-Facist LEAGUE
User avatar
Knife
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15769
Joined: 2002-08-30 02:40pm
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain

Post by Knife »

TrailerParkJawa wrote:I think some of the complaints are from Reservists who just wanted college money, but there is a greater issue at hand. Anyone see 60 minutes last night? They are calling up officers and NCO's who are beyond their 8 years because the military says they never resigned.
Actually I agree there, though officers have different contracts and can be 'reactivated' if they don't resign their commissions. I don't know anything about enlisted being recalled after their '8' though. I'd have to see the cases, but it might be people being recalled off of their terminal leave or some such. I don't know, maybe they did, but if they did, those would be the cases that need/should go to court.
Also, if they simply keep everyone it is a way of avoiding the "D" word since we are going to need significant numbers of boots on the ground in Iraq for a long time.
I don't feel as such. I don't see a major ramping up of troop levels for the total military. I see redeployment of assets. The US has troops all over the globe that could be redeployed there. Sure, some of those troops are for force projection and are keeping forward bases staffed, but the US has needed to rethink alot of that for a long time, now's as good a time as any.
If you are done with your 8 years, you are done. I do agree with not rotating out individuals. If they are in Iraq and their 8 years are up, then I think it is reasonable to keep them there until the rotate back. Upon that rotation however, they should be released.
Agreed, if those cases with the NCO's after their eight are true, like I said, those are the cases that should go to the courts.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
User avatar
The Duchess of Zeon
Gözde
Posts: 14566
Joined: 2002-09-18 01:06am
Location: Exiled in the Pale of Settlement.

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

You have the option of signing something on your enlistment form which, though it doesn't require you to report for training after your eight years are up, does make you eligible for being called up after your eight years if you have a specialty which the military considers itself deficient in, and you remain physically fit. So if you signed that and later regretted it, all you would have to do is eat at McDonalds for a couple of months to get out of it, and you have to sign it yourself, again making it your fault if they call you up according to that clause.
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.

In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.
User avatar
Chardok
GET THE FUCK OFF MY OBSTACLE!
Posts: 8488
Joined: 2003-08-12 09:49am
Location: San Antonio

Post by Chardok »

My best friend has petitioned his congressman to get out of the stoploss. Here's his story, and I support him 1000%, and this is excepting he is my best friend. He joined the army as a combat engineer, did 4 years, 3 of which in Korea under a stoploss there (Normal tour is 12 months).then a year at lost-in-the-woods, then got out, went to school for a year and a half, and then reactivated himself; for what reason I do not know, God knows I tried to convince him to do otherwise. he signed up to activate for....like 12-16 months, IIRC. He's did a tour in Kuwait, a year at Ft. Polk, and is scheduled to get out in January. He just found out a couple months ago that the unit he is now assigned to is deploying to Iraq in a month or so. For another year. Needless to say, he is watching the courts closely.
Image
User avatar
Julhelm
Jedi Master
Posts: 1468
Joined: 2003-01-28 12:03pm
Location: Brutopia
Contact:

Post by Julhelm »

I think the military is bullshitting here. The guys are not conscripts, they sign a contract, and as such when their contract is up, they should be sent home.
At the very worst, if they HAVE to be kept, they should recieve extra pay.
User avatar
Knife
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15769
Joined: 2002-08-30 02:40pm
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain

Post by Knife »

Julhelm wrote:I think the military is bullshitting here. The guys are not conscripts, they sign a contract, and as such when their contract is up, they should be sent home.
At the very worst, if they HAVE to be kept, they should recieve extra pay.
They sign an 8 year contract. In most cases, the person only does 4 years of that active and the rest as inactive reserve (a name on a list). But the contract is for 8 years and if the military needs you for an extra year past your 4, you're going to do it and there is nothing wrong with it.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
User avatar
LapsedPacifist
Jedi Knight
Posts: 608
Joined: 2004-01-30 12:06pm
Location: WestCoast N. America

Post by LapsedPacifist »

Knife wrote: They sign an 8 year contract. In most cases, the person only does 4 years of that active and the rest as inactive reserve (a name on a list). But the contract is for 8 years and if the military needs you for an extra year past your 4, you're going to do it and there is nothing wrong with it.
The soldier interviewed on NPR had apperantly signed up as part of the armies "Try one<?>" program where they would re-enlist for one year. I don't know any details of that program except that included a clause to keep people in during times of war and national emergancy. But it was not a 4 or 8 year contract.

LP
Ogrek is beyond strategy.

<- Avatar from Dr. Roy's List of Stomatopods for the Aquarium
User avatar
Knife
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15769
Joined: 2002-08-30 02:40pm
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain

Post by Knife »

LapsedPacifist wrote:
Knife wrote: They sign an 8 year contract. In most cases, the person only does 4 years of that active and the rest as inactive reserve (a name on a list). But the contract is for 8 years and if the military needs you for an extra year past your 4, you're going to do it and there is nothing wrong with it.
The soldier interviewed on NPR had apperantly signed up as part of the armies "Try one<?>" program where they would re-enlist for one year. I don't know any details of that program except that included a clause to keep people in during times of war and national emergancy. But it was not a 4 or 8 year contract.

LP
I have no idea what that is, but I do know people who've gotten a '2 year contract' but its still an eight year contract. 2 active, 6 inactive reserve. I assume something simular with your above example.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
User avatar
Dargos
Jedi Knight
Posts: 963
Joined: 2002-08-30 07:37am
Location: At work
Contact:

Post by Dargos »

The Army is currently DENYING PEOPLE RETIREMENT!! I have a buddy that has put in 22 years and his retirement has been rejected twice so far for the good of the army. I also know several others who have had their retirement disapproved at least once already. I know individuals who had only one more month to go on a contract. (They already served 8 plus years) and they were stop lossed because of Alert Notice of deployment. (None of these guys had critical MOSes
I am fully aware of the 8-year clause, but nowhere did I read that the Government could keep you as long as they desire.

What do you think is more dangerous to the mission? A new guy who willingly signed the dotted line or someone who is extremely disgruntled because they did their time and the Army will NOT let them go.
If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything.
User avatar
The Duchess of Zeon
Gözde
Posts: 14566
Joined: 2002-09-18 01:06am
Location: Exiled in the Pale of Settlement.

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Dargos wrote: I am fully aware of the 8-year clause, but nowhere did I read that the Government could keep you as long as they desire.
Actually yes it does. The Stop-Loss clause means that if your commitment is not up when a military emergency (which results in invoking Stop-Loss) comes up, you stay onboard until that emergency is over. Furthermore since it was designed to be put into place during a crisis before actual combat, a declaration of war is not required to activate it. So, with perfectly legality, the military could easily contrive to keep everyone who is either in their active service or reserve service in the military for twenty years or so. It's part of the contract.
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.

In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.
User avatar
dragon
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4151
Joined: 2004-09-23 04:42pm

Post by dragon »

One things thats stupid is some of my friends that were stop - loss are sitting in Iraq doing absoluty nothing. They sit there all day playing video game waiting. The goverment is always complaining that we dont have enough troops yet thousands of us just sit here with nothing to do but wait till its time to go home.
User avatar
Tsyroc
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13748
Joined: 2002-07-29 08:35am
Location: Tucson, Arizona

Post by Tsyroc »

I may be wrong but I thought that when a person is in the military that person wasn't able to sue the same military?

As for the people in the law suit the only one that sounds to me like he might nominally have a case is the guy who signed up for one year with the National Guard, but then I really don't have a clue as to what kind of contract he signed.


All I know is that the longer this kind of shit goes own the more they are fucking up the whole volunteer Army bit. I don't think it will ever hit so cricital a point that it would be worth going back to a draft but I do think that the Army and to a lesser extent the Marines will be taking the hit for this in recruiting and manpower for more than a few years. If we keep initiating conflicts I expect that to get worse.
By the pricking of my thumb,
Something wicked this way comes.
Open, locks,
Whoever knocks.
User avatar
Vohu Manah
Jedi Knight
Posts: 775
Joined: 2004-03-28 07:38am
Location: Harford County, Maryland
Contact:

Post by Vohu Manah »

I can only speak for the Maryland Army National Guard on this, but their starting contract is 8 years. Of the 8 years, 6 are Ready Reserve (train with a unit) while 2 are Inactive Ready (don't train with a unit). Many spend all 8 years on Ready status, but they are not required to. To my knowledge, and it has been years since I've looked at the contract, nowhere does it state that that time may be involuntarily extended. This may be covered in legislation, but, like Maryland's ban on employers forcing applicants to take lie-detector tests, it should be noted in the contract, just like notice of said ban is noted (usually in writing, and must be signed by you) when you apply for a job in this state.
There are two kinds of people in the world: the kind who think it’s perfectly reasonable to strip-search a 13-year-old girl suspected of bringing ibuprofen to school, and the kind who think those people should be kept as far away from children as possible … Sometimes it’s hard to tell the difference between drug warriors and child molesters.” - Jacob Sullum[/size][/align]
User avatar
The Dark
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7378
Joined: 2002-10-31 10:28pm
Location: Promoting ornithological awareness

Post by The Dark »

Cpl Kendall wrote:
frigidmagi wrote:They are not the same thing. National Guard units answer to the state and can be activated by the state governor. Reserves are answerable to the federal government and part of the federal military organization.
So why the two different systems? Wouldn't the US be better served if the Reserves absorbed the National Guard? Then the manpower shortage wouldn't be so severe.
Originally the Guard was the militia of each state, in order to provide defense (the states and the Fed were a bit edgy about each other when the nation was founded), while the Reserves were soldiers who trained part-time while working civilian jobs to provide a ready force in case the military needed to expand suddenly for war. The State Guards were eventually nationalized as the National Guard, but they couldn't just be shuttled off to the Reserves because the states didn't want to give up their authority.
Stanley Hauerwas wrote:[W]hy is it that no one is angry at the inequality of income in this country? I mean, the inequality of income is unbelievable. Unbelievable. Why isn’t that ever an issue of politics? Because you don’t live in a democracy. You live in a plutocracy. Money rules.
BattleTech for SilCore
Post Reply