Seven retired US generals on Iraq

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-12-07 08:54pm

Holy fucking shit, I googled Quality Air Force and found out that it was a commericalized version of the ISO 9000 standard

I feel sorry for the Air Force that they had to have that travesty shoved
down their throat...

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-12-07 08:54pm

MKSheppard wrote:
He changed the USAF's uniform from something that looked like
service dress to an airline pilot's uniform. They've never forgiven
him for that.

Linka

Shortly after the end of Gulf War I, then Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Merrill A. McPeak announced the testing of a new service dress blue uniform that sparked widespread criticism within the service.

Now it is happening all over again.

Critics of the McPeak uniform said the new design created a less-military appearance, noting it replaced the traditional epaulets and traditional rank insignia with the naval style of a sleeve braid for showing the rank on the jacket cuffs. To many of us, the final version had senior officers looking like a cross between Coast Guard officers and American Airlines pilots -- unflattering and not very military.

Ultimately, less "trendy" heads prevailed; the officer's uniform reacquired epaulets with traditional metal rank insignia and the ugly, dull metallic cuff braid went away. In the last year, the Air Force brass has also realized having nameplates, just like the other services helps folks know to whom they are speaking. Most helpful when one party doesn't know the other.

So he changed the dress uniform, big deal. How many times do you wear that in a year? In the CF we wore it twice at the most. If the worst he did was fuck with the ranks and the uniform than the accusations against him are pretty small. None of it has any effect on his Tactical or Strategic abilities.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-12-07 08:55pm

Google Quality Air Force Kendall.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-12-07 08:55pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:I've had commanders that I didn't like, that doesn't mean they were unqualified.

It's not hard to go far without finding someone ranting about McPeak, usually
retired Air Force personnel. On the other hand, it's very hard to find someone
who served under Curtis LeMay badmouthing him. "Big Stick" is full of praise
for General LeMay from the B-36 crews.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-12-07 08:56pm

frigidmagi wrote:Google Quality Air Force Kendall.

Linky

Back in the late 1980s and early 1990s, the Air Force took the Baldrige criteria, colored it "blue" and reprinted it as the Quality Air Force Criteria. At the time of its inception, forward-thinking Air Force leaders recognized the fact that doing things smarter during normal day-to-day operations would free more resources worldwide.

...

Regarding the Baldrige Award and the commercialization of the ISO 9000 standard: As someone who has spent 24 years in the quality profession, I applaud the "commercialization" of the ISO 9000 standard.

Pcm979 · Post by **Pcm979** » 2004-12-07 08:56pm

Wow, watch Shep totally ignore the point! Again!

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-12-07 08:59pm

Pcm979 wrote:Wow, watch Shep totally ignore the point! Again!

He didn't just change the dress; he instituted the Hell of ISO 9000 onto the USAF, and mucked with the rank structure, and devastated SAC during his
term.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-12-07 09:02pm

frigidmagi wrote:Google Quality Air Force Kendall.

Ok Google turned up this, other than various religious messages I don't see anything wrong with the policy.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-12-07 09:04pm

MKSheppard wrote:
He didn't just change the dress; he instituted the Hell of ISO 9000 onto the USAF, and mucked with the rank structure, and devastated SAC during his
term.

So whats the objection to ISO 9000, I am not familiar with this standard. As for SAC, the cold war is over. What purpose does having them around serve? There's no one to nuke anymore.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2004-12-07 09:07pm

MKSheppard wrote:It's not hard to go far without finding someone ranting about McPeak, usually retired Air Force personnel. On the other hand, it's very hard to find someone who served under Curtis LeMay badmouthing him. "Big Stick" is full of praise for General LeMay from the B-36 crews.

That's it, I'm getting sick of your game playing. The man correctly pointed out that we were unprepared for an occupation largely because we had too few troops in country, and you started bitching about how he changed a uniform that you have never and will never wear, in an organization that you were never, will never be a part of. If you think his assement of our troop numbers was wrong then go ahead and explain why, as opposed to spamming the thread and wasting our time with your red herrings, ad hominems, and other useless garbage.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-12-07 09:09pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:this, other than various religious messages I don't see anything wrong with the policy.

It's the same bullshit that Steve Adams mocks in Dilbert on a regular
basis, but redone for a blue-suited crowd.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-12-07 09:12pm

MKSheppard wrote: It's the same bullshit that Steve Adams mocks in Dilbert on a regular
basis, but redone for a blue-suited crowd.

Explain why this is bad. You haven't posted anything to back this up. As Wicked Pilot pointed out, your spouting off about an organization you don't belong too, never will, and know nothing about, save what you've gotten out of Airpower Magazine.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-12-07 09:14pm

The problem with removing SAC is that the fighter mob now rules the Air Force and their policy can be stated with 3 words.

Faster, faster, faster.

They want to kill the A-10 and only fail because the other services intervene. Why do they want to kill the A-10 Warthog? Because it's not a fast, sleak, sexy bird by their standards. Noting is seen has worthwhile unless it's hi speed, 2 seat screamer. And while the fighter is damn important, you still need bombers, you still need C-130 lifters and a host of other aircraft, sexy or not.

Has for SAC, it's main purpose has always been to be a nasty big stick. But a stick you can call back. Once the ICBM is launched that's it. Cruise Missles are hard to replace. Bombs and Bombers do not have these problems.

Having just one group dictate policy is a terrible idea, be it bomber barons or fighter mobsters.

And don't get me started on the sheer foolishness of running a military has if it was a Corperation.

Pcm979 · Post by **Pcm979** » 2004-12-07 09:14pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Cpl Kendall wrote:this, other than various religious messages I don't see anything wrong with the policy.
It's the same bullshit that Steve Adams mocks in Dilbert on a regular
basis, but redone for a blue-suited crowd.

I repeat: What does that have to do with his assesment of Iraq? Anything? Any-fucking-thing at all?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-12-07 09:18pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:and you started bitching about how he changed a uniform that you have never and will never wear, in an organization that you were never, will never be a part of.

It's a shame that this is the 21st Century and we are separated by
hundreds of miles. Otherwise, I would settle this grevious insult by
you upon my honor with loaded pistols at dawn.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-12-07 09:19pm

frigidmagi wrote:The problem with removing SAC is that the fighter mob now rules the Air Force and their policy can be stated with 3 words.

Faster, faster, faster.

They want to kill the A-10 and only fail because the other services intervene. Why do they want to kill the A-10 Warthog? Because it's not a fast, sleak, sexy bird by their standards. Noting is seen has worthwhile unless it's hi speed, 2 seat screamer. And while the fighter is damn important, you still need bombers, you still need C-130 lifters and a host of other aircraft, sexy or not.

Has for SAC, it's main purpose has always been to be a nasty big stick. But a stick you can call back. Once the ICBM is launched that's it. Cruise Missles are hard to replace. Bombs and Bombers do not have these problems.

Having just one group dictate policy is a terrible idea, be it bomber barons or fighter mobsters.

And don't get me started on the sheer foolishness of running a military has if it was a Corperation.

Your right, those are not points that I had thought of. However the uniform and rank issues are minor.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-12-07 09:22pm

MKSheppard wrote: It's a shame that this is the 21st Century and we are separated by
hundreds of miles. Otherwise, I would settle this grevious insult by
you upon my honor with loaded pistols at dawn.

What are you going to do? Kill him with you mad military skillz? Do you even know what end the round comes out of?

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-12-07 09:23pm

Your right, those are not points that I had thought of. However the uniform and rank issues are minor.

They are just the most noticable part of the problem. I will say on the rank issue though, I would not have taken it well if someone had decided to come in and fuck with the ranks. It just isn't a needed change, not in comparsion to the long list of things that need attentence.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-12-07 09:30pm

frigidmagi wrote:
They are just the most noticable part of the problem. I will say on the rank issue though, I would not have taken it well if someone had decided to come in and fuck with the ranks. It just isn't a needed change, not in comparsion to the long list of things that need attentence.

I have noticed that the top dogs like to fuck with the ranks and uniforms because it leaves their mark on the service. It is a sign that they have become politicians rather than soldiers.

Post by **Zaia** » 2004-12-07 10:41pm

Wicked Pilot and Cpl Kendall: Ease up on the personal jabs at Shep for not being in the service. Due to his deafness, he is not nor will he ever be eligible to serve, so don't throw that in his face.

Shep: Stop trying to be a badass with your 'dueling pistols at dawn' and address the goddamn points of the argument or concede.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-12-07 10:45pm

Zaia wrote:Wicked Pilot and Cpl Kendall: Ease up on the personal jabs at Shep for not being in the service. Due to his deafness, he is not nor will he ever be eligible to serve, so don't throw that in his face.

I understand that he cannot serve due to physical disabilities. However he needs to stop spouting off on issues he knows nothing about, because he has no experiance with them. Reading Airpower Magazine does not make him qualified to evaluate these issues.

Post by **Zaia** » 2004-12-07 10:49pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:I understand that he cannot serve due to physical disabilities. However he needs to stop spouting off on issues he knows nothing about, because he has no experiance with them. Reading Airpower Magazine does not make him qualified to evaluate these issues.

Which is why I told him to either back up his points or concede, Cpl Kendall. Give him time to respond so he may do so, please.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-12-07 10:50pm

Zaia wrote: Which is why I told him to either back up his points or concede, Cpl Kendall. Give him time to respond so he may do so, please.

As you wish.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2004-12-08 01:02pm

Zaia wrote:Wicked Pilot and Cpl Kendall: Ease up on the personal jabs at Shep for not being in the service. Due to his deafness, he is not nor will he ever be eligible to serve, so don't throw that in his face.

I was operating under the impression that it was solely his criminal record that kept him out, it's hard to tell if someone's death or mute on a BBS. In other words, no apologies, and my points still stand.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2004-12-08 03:55pm

The Kernel wrote:
Stofsk wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote:And Colin Powell gets the boot while Rumsfeld stays.
Colin Powell retired though. Not that I disagree with your overall sentiment. Rumsfeld looks like such a pointdexter. Powell at least looks like he kicked arse. Rumsfeld looks like a typical number crunching bean counting yuppie.
Don't kid yourself, he's not that at all. The man is a Cold War strategist to the core and that hasn't changed since the Berlin Wall came down.

He was one of McNamara's damn whiz kids...the original perpetrators of the "faster, better, cheaper" motto that fucked over NASA when they tried it. He is a bean counter in a suit and office. I will concede that he served three years as a pilot and flight instructor. Whoopee. Gephardt, Bonior, Daschle, Inouye, Kerry, Rangel, Cleland, Harkin, Reed, Boswell, and Clark all had longer terms of service (and those are just the obvious Democratic ones), while Ted Kennedy served as long as Rumsfeld did.

Heck, if you want decent military people from the Repubs, look at Gilchrest, or Hagel, or Cunningham, or even Dole.