Canada scores #3 on math tests (USA not in top 20)

[Darth Wong]

I see that the climate here is more liberal, so perhaps I shouldn't use that as a rebuttal, and I apologize. But yes, I am of the opinion that socialism has some major flaws and that as a whole, it makes for a lacksadasical (sp?) society.

You mean the kind of society where a quarter of the high school students can't even exceed first-level math, and which doesn't even rank in the top 20 for math performance worldwide? That kind of lackadaisical society? I believe you're living in that society.

If government had stayed out of education and left it to the parents I don't believe we'd have near the problems we do today.

And what do you base this tripe on? The history of all mankind's achievements have shown that organized work by specialists will generally trump individuals working on their own, and your personal say-so or appeals to exceptional cases will not override thousands of years of precedent.

[cyclonefever]

And how does this appeal to personal anecdote refute the fact that all of the homeschooling advocacy websites have a Christian slant to them?

It doesnt. It seems to me that because of your strong dislike of Christianity, you can't stand it when they demand better for their children. It is their responsibility to think of what's best for their child, and if they believe they can teach their child, or an alternative school can teach their child better, than they have all the right to do that. What's wrong in wanting the best for your child?

I didn't say that private schooling CAUSES bad public schooling, so don't put words in my mouth, fucktard. I said that the prevalence of private schooling for the privileged classes weakens the incentive to FIX public schooling: a point which you have utterly failed to address.

I apologize. It just seemed to me that was part of your argument, whether or not you specifically stated it. My mistake.

See, here in lies a fundamental difference in opinion between you and me. There should never have been a problem in the first place. Once that problem occurs parents have all the right in the world to seek a better learning and education environment for their children. Why should they trust the government to something they've screwed up in the past?

[Keevan_Colton]

It doesnt. It seems to me that because of your strong dislike of Christianity, you can't stand it when they demand better for their children. It is their responsibility to think of what's best for their child, and if they believe they can teach their child, or an alternative school can teach their child better, than they have all the right to do that. What's wrong in wanting the best for your child?

Better like?
Lying about physics?
Lying about biology?
Lying about history?
Lying about sex?

If you think these notions are better please report ASAP to the totally retard internment camp along with a couple of other posters I wont mention.

I love the right you ascribe to parents to decide what's best for a child, but do you believe children themselves have rights? Such as the right to the truth? Or even better the right to develop free of indoctrination and lies?

See, here in lies a fundamental difference in opinion between you and me. There should never have been a problem in the first place. Once that problem occurs parents have all the right in the world to seek a better learning and education environment for their children. Why should they trust the government to something they've screwed up in the past?

So, rather than fix the system, go to an older more broken method.
We had all private education systems in the past, back then only those with money got an education because it cost a lot. Would you like your 18th century education system with or without a side order of Libertarian bullshit sir?

[Darth Wong]

And how does this appeal to personal anecdote refute the fact that all of the homeschooling advocacy websites have a Christian slant to them?

It doesnt.

Then the point remains: most homeschoolers do it to keep "impure" influences away from their kids, not to give them a better education.

It seems to me that because of your strong dislike of Christianity, you can't stand it when they demand better for their children. It is their responsibility to think of what's best for their child, and if they believe they can teach their child, or an alternative school can teach their child better, than they have all the right to do that. What's wrong in wanting the best for your child?

It's wrong when either:

A) You think that what's "best" for your child is ignorance of "impure" ideas.
B) You do it at the expense of other peoples' children, which has been the result of the American approach.

I didn't say that private schooling CAUSES bad public schooling, so don't put words in my mouth, fucktard. I said that the prevalence of private schooling for the privileged classes weakens the incentive to FIX public schooling: a point which you have utterly failed to address.

I apologize. It just seemed to me that was part of your argument, whether or not you specifically stated it. My mistake.

OK.

See, here in lies a fundamental difference in opinion between you and me. There should never have been a problem in the first place. Once that problem occurs parents have all the right in the world to seek a better learning and education environment for their children. Why should they trust the government to something they've screwed up in the past?

Name me one country which has become a successful first-world industrialized nation without a public education system. Go ahead. Find me one. Name it now.

[cyclonefever]

I see that the climate here is more liberal, so perhaps I shouldn't use that as a rebuttal, and I apologize. But yes, I am of the opinion that socialism has some major flaws and that as a whole, it makes for a lacksadasical (sp?) society.

The 'atmosphere' doesn't matter. What you have to do is explain why!

I apologize for using that as a rebuttal, but I hardly think this is the thread to discuss this.

If government had stayed out of education and left it to the parents I don't believe we'd have near the problems we do today.

If the government stayed out of education, there would be no education. Do you seriously think parents are smart enough to take over the jobs of dozens of trained teachers?[/quote]Yes.

[Keevan_Colton]

I apologize for using that as a rebuttal, but I hardly think this is the thread to discuss this.

In that respect, allow me now to point and laugh at you in lue of the assreaming you would recieve on that topic.

Yes.

I'm sorry, but there's a little thing required for positive assertions.

Evidence.

So, are you a sociologist?

[Darth Wong]

If the government stayed out of education, there would be no education. Do you seriously think parents are smart enough to take over the jobs of dozens of trained teachers?

Yes.

So you believe that the average parent is well-versed in geology, physics, biology, chemistry, language, English literature, history, and mathematics (including calculus)? As well as the methodology of teaching? That's fucking ridiculous, and easily disprovable, as I've never heard of any single person who had university degrees in all of those subjects, never mind suggesting that the AVERAGE person has all of those qualifications.

[Lord Zentei]

Yay for Canada!

Mind you, from the tests it would appear that our American neighbours need to work on their system, but the decay of the US public education system in favour of private education is a trend that shows no signs of stopping in the current right-wing political atmosphere. No one really seems to be upset in the US about the fact that if you're rich, you get better health care and education, and if you're poor, you get screwed in every conceivable way. As far as the right-wing is concerned, it's some kind of fair reward for being rich.

They have needed to work on their system for quite some time now.

OTOH, private education does not neccesarily provide a disincentive for public funding if handled properly (which Uncle Sam isn't doing); if memory serves, the Netherlands have a voucher system that didn't do too badly.

If the government stayed out of education, there would be no education. Do you seriously think parents are smart enough to take over the jobs of dozens of trained teachers?

Yes.

Tell me: why on Earth do you think prospective teachers need several years of training before becoming certified?

P.S.: for comparison between countries, check out See the report on the Pisawebsite for more intel.

[Cairber]

Its a tough problem...you cant keep parents from putting their kids into private schools when they will receive a better education there but, at the same time, you want to promote better public schools. And I dont think this goes for just private schools. I know a lot of people who will drop their kids off at a relatives house every mornin who lives in the suburbs and make that their "home address" so that their kids can go to school in the burbs and not the inner city shit holes (sorry, truth is truth).

This is a big reason why I dont really support the voucher idea; it will just make the gap wider and wider.

[Wicked Pilot]

I really don't mind homeschooling and private schools that much. As long as the students are still held to state mandated standards and the parents still have to pay taxes then it's not hurting public education financially at least. However, being from the south, I am quite familiar with what is known as 'white flight', and the whole notion of sending everyone to private schools or homeschooling reminds me of such.

[RedImperator]

The Wall Street Journal had an article on this survey as well. What hasn't been mentioned here is that on average, white and Asian students in America score ABOVE the international average, while Hispanics and blacks score below. Blacks are scoring, on average, so far below that they're dragging the entire national average with them.

Private schools don't even begin to account for this gap. This is a massive indictment, if we needed any more, of the decaying urban school systems in which millions of minority students are trapped.

On vouchers--the arguments against them are fairly sound, but the fact of the matter is, there's obviously no political will to fix the school systems they're designed for, leaving inner city parents who want their children to get an education (and get through the entire day with a reasonable chance of not getting shived) with few options. They are, in many ways, an end run around recalcitrant teacher's unions, who of course hate them. A better solution would be to break the unions, fire the entrenched administrator class with an interest in preserving the status quo, give the schools broad powers to expel troublemakers, and abandon the property tax funding system. Do let me know when we elect politicians with the balls to make that happen. I'll book my ski vacation in Dis.

[Cairber]

Ahh teachers unions...it makes me laugh when I hear that the union in Buffalo, NY is one of the highest paid in the country.

[Alex Moon]

I don't know where this reporter got her information, but it seems to be incorrect.

I did a quick search and found
This

Which has Canada's average math score in 5th place. The US is 20 places behind. Canada does rank third in reading though.

Personally, it's not as big a deal as people would like to think. Canada's score was 532, vs the US which scored 483, which means that Canadian students did about 10% better on average. There is definately room to improve, but this difference means very little in the real world.

[Darth Wong]

Personally, it's not as big a deal as people would like to think. Canada's score was 532, vs the US which scored 483, which means that Canadian students did about 10% better on average. There is definately room to improve, but this difference means very little in the real world.

You seriously think that if the entire US student body improved its grades by 10% (which corresponds to roughly one letter-grade), this would mean very little?

[Sam Or I]

Personally, it's not as big a deal as people would like to think. Canada's score was 532, vs the US which scored 483, which means that Canadian students did about 10% better on average. There is definately room to improve, but this difference means very little in the real world.

You seriously think that if the entire US student body improved its grades by 10% (which corresponds to roughly one letter-grade), this would mean very little?

Well, if you put in in those terms YES, but if you take the populace as a whole, would the US have as many (number wise) of high testing students? I am from the US therefore I am incapable of figuring out the math. (Actually to tired and to lazy)

Anyways, I blame the Teachers Unions. Every California school without a teachers Union does 10-20 % better than the states average.

[HemlockGrey]

Of course, today my idiot history teacher gave us a little lecture about how America's schools are so kickass because we're the only country in the world that lets *everyone* go to school, even if they do poorly.

I was certain she was pulling that out of her jingoistic fundie ass then, and I'm even more certain now.

[Faram]

Of course, today my idiot history teacher gave us a little lecture about how America's schools are so kickass because we're the only country in the world that lets *everyone* go to school, even if they do poorly.

I was certain she was pulling that out of her jingoistic fundie ass then, and I'm even more certain now.

Man I feel sorry for you.

That sort of teatcher reminds me of my teatcher in 4-6th grade, she was a hardline Commie and read quotations from Mao Zedong to us...

I hated those "Classes"

[HemlockGrey]

Yeah, not only does she know jackshit about history, she's always trying to force-feed Christianity to us.

"And that's why you're all called Protestants!"
"And that's why you all read the 'King James' Bible!"
"The Soviets spent 50 years trying to convince people that atheism was a socially acceptable idea...did they succeed?"

That last one, as the only atheist in the class, pissed me off quite a bit.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

This doesn't surprise me at all, since I already saw a study which demonstrated that 40% of our 8th grade math questions were comparable to 1st and 2nd grade math questions in Singapore.

[NecronLord]

Of course, today my idiot history teacher gave us a little lecture about how America's schools are so kickass because we're the only country in the world that lets *everyone* go to school, even if they do poorly.

I was certain she was pulling that out of her jingoistic fundie ass then, and I'm even more certain now.

Err...

...

...

...The UK at least started that well over a hundred years ago. How the fuck did she get to be a history teacher? I could likely do better than that, and the last history teacher in my family was two generations back.

[Faram]

Do anyone have the math questions they used in that study?

[Shinova]

Oh nnooooooooo!!!!~.......... yet, somehow so expectant of my country to score so poorly in the education department.


Somehow our incredibly tiny minority who excel in college manage to keep the rest of the country up. Kudos to them. Now if only the rest of the country would at least attempt to follow.

[wautd]

Behind only Hong Kong and Finland:

hmm no, Flanders & Hong Kong were first
Flanders was also in the top 3 other things

But if you look at our whole country, the french speaking part belgium dragged our average down a lot

[Pcm979]

Woohoo! Go HK!

[dragon]

Sad thing is both me and my wife took a similar tests for the hell of it. My wife is a professor at the University of Wuerzburg and English is not her primary language. She also shes she not very good at math. I however have a B.S. in Mathematics and english is my primary language. Now guess who did better on the test....You're right she did. While I can to do complex math she doesn't understand she is much better at me in simple math. Still have her beat in mosts sciences though granted she still better than me in English grammer.