Canada scores #3 on math tests (USA not in top 20)

[wautd]

Behind only Hong Kong and Finland:

hmm no, Flanders & Hong Kong were first
Flanders was also in the top 3 other things

But if you look at our whole country, the french speaking part belgium dragged our average down a lot

[Pcm979]

Woohoo! Go HK!

[dragon]

Sad thing is both me and my wife took a similar tests for the hell of it. My wife is a professor at the University of Wuerzburg and English is not her primary language. She also shes she not very good at math. I however have a B.S. in Mathematics and english is my primary language. Now guess who did better on the test....You're right she did. While I can to do complex math she doesn't understand she is much better at me in simple math. Still have her beat in mosts sciences though granted she still better than me in English grammer.

[dragon]

As you can see my grammer sucks as my wife just pointed out the mistakes I made in the last post.

[His Divine Shadow]

Yay for Canada!

That article focused way too much on how Canada came "only" third as opposed to how they LOST LOST LOST against Finland who came first! We are NUMBER 2 NUMBER 2!!

[Ace Pace]

This doesn't surprise me at all, since I already saw a study which demonstrated that 40% of our 8th grade math questions were comparable to 1st and 2nd grade math questions in Singapore.

Could you provide example? this interests me, how the heck are 6-8 year olds knowing that kind of math?

[Captain Cyran]

They'll think it's Buffalo and assume that they haven't reached their target yet.

I know it's old, but it's an oppertunity that cannot be passed up.

Now Wong. You shouldn't be insulting Toronto like that. Really, comparing it to Buffalo...

As for the article. It's no surprise to me how everyone creamed the USA.

[Lord of the Farce]

This doesn't surprise me at all, since I already saw a study which demonstrated that 40% of our 8th grade math questions were comparable to 1st and 2nd grade math questions in Singapore.

Could you provide example? this interests me, how the heck are 6-8 year olds knowing that kind of math?

Not exactly what you asked for, since it is China vs Australia, and not much more than anecdotal evidence on something which happened some 10 years ago.

My mother use to make me do homework during the holidays (much like I have been forced to do since my earliest memories ) solving questions from some Chinese standardised grade 3 - 5 (IIRC) math textbooks. Those things are thin, especially compared to the textbooks that I had during high school (and university, now) here in Australia, but fuck were they hard.

I seem to recall my step-sister (who has four children, two of whom were in their late high school years at the time, if I'm not mistaken) stating back then that the questions were at least grade 7 level. I seem to recall fraction and algebra and all sorts of fucked up shit, though I can't really remember any of it now.


On a somewhat related note, because of the typical difference in school years between northern and southern hemisphere, I went straight from graduation of grade 2 in a Chinese elementary/primary school to the middle of grade 3 in Australia.

In retrospect, it was kind of funny to be able to run circles around many of the math questions for a few grades thanks to the leg-up. But to be frank, I suspect that the same teaching methods which helped give me that leg-up also contributed to my persisting learning problems and inclination for laziness/procrastination (kind of a subconscious rebellion).

[Thunderfire]

Do anyone have the math questions they used in that study?

The german pisa site had some sample questions. You might be able to find some questions on the swedish pisa site.

[GSV Use Psychology]

The US site also has a few sample questions.

http://www.nces.ed.gov/surveys/PISA/Items.asp

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Could you provide example? this interests me, how the heck are 6-8 year olds knowing that kind of math?

Newspaper article on it (registration may be required).

We've found that 40 percent of the items in the eighth-grade tests measure concepts that are taught at the end of the second grade.

The full report can be purchased here for $9.95

An interesting fact in relation to this is that many Homeschoolers are buying Singaporean math textbooks these days, which may explain why people who are being taught Creationism and the literal truth of the Bible still go on to perform so well in College--they have actually learned math, unlike their public school counterparts.

[Alex Moon]

Personally, it's not as big a deal as people would like to think. Canada's score was 532, vs the US which scored 483, which means that Canadian students did about 10% better on average. There is definately room to improve, but this difference means very little in the real world.

You seriously think that if the entire US student body improved its grades by 10% (which corresponds to roughly one letter-grade), this would mean very little?

To clarify, it was in math that the US was behind by 10%. Reading and Science the US was much closer to Canada. But to answer your question, yes, I do believe that people are overreacting. Most americans or canadians, or anybody for that matter, will graduate high school and go off into careers or fields of study where their use of science or math is fairly limited. When they do need it, they'll learn the necessary material. In everyday life, that 10% isn't going to be much of a difference to most people.

Does this mean that everything is hunky dory? Of course not. There's still plenty of room for improvement, and there's certainly nothing wrong with pushing kids to do better. However, that's entirely different from the chicken littling that seems to be a major part of this thread.

[Darth Wong]

To clarify, it was in math that the US was behind by 10%. Reading and Science the US was much closer to Canada. But to answer your question, yes, I do believe that people are overreacting. Most americans or canadians, or anybody for that matter, will graduate high school and go off into careers or fields of study where their use of science or math is fairly limited. When they do need it, they'll learn the necessary material. In everyday life, that 10% isn't going to be much of a difference to most people.

That's retarded; by that "logic", we might as well not teach anything that the average person won't use on a daily basis, which is 90% of what you learn in school.

Does this mean that everything is hunky dory? Of course not. There's still plenty of room for improvement, and there's certainly nothing wrong with pushing kids to do better. However, that's entirely different from the chicken littling that seems to be a major part of this thread.

God forbid that people would be concerned about education standards. After all, you don't actually use most of your education on a daily basis anyway

[brianeyci]

What kind of math is this. I remember standardized tests asking really simple really stupid questions. Basically testing whether or not you knew how to add, subtract, divide, multiply, do the same with fractions, read a few word problems, and if you're lucky a little trig.

Its not groundbreaking stuff here, which is why its so sad.

Brian

[phongn]

There are some sample questions linked above.

[Lusankya]

I read in the paper the other day that Australia was one of the few countries where boys and girls scored equally in maths - generally boys would score much higher.

[brianeyci]

Doing computation is not really "math". Mathematicians can give a better opinion on this than me, but I remember reading a quote (dunno who it came from) that said that doing computation for a mathematician was like "having a master chef wash dishes".

I looked at the "math" there, and it really is just the stuff you need for everyday use. That is really scary, that people could be graduating high school without knowing how to estimate the distance on a map given a scale.

I don't see the failure of US kids as a critique on their educational system more than a critique on the way most kids spend their time. The US system can't be so half-assed that they can't teach how to read a map. A lot of kids probably didn't even try. Why should they when academic achievement doesn't really mean anything in their opinion? What matters is which pop diva did this, or what combo you pull in Tekken, etc.

Fucking scary shit good thing I live in Canada.

Brian

[Darth Wong]

I looked at the "math" there, and it really is just the stuff you need for everyday use. That is really scary, that people could be graduating high school without knowing how to estimate the distance on a map given a scale.

There are a lot of people out there who can't figure out simple things like estimating the tax on an item, figuring out how much money to leave as a 15% tip for the waiter, or determining how much change they'll get back from a $20 if the bill is $17.85.

[brianeyci]

One more note. The formatting of the test may have a lot to do with the test scores. It might be hard for academics to believe, but not really when you consider how you prepare for tests. If you can think back to when you were in school, or are like me and are in school, think of how you studied. If you were successful, you probably anticipated the types of questions and the types of answers, especially the types of answers.

So they might be testing inner-city schools whose test format might not be the same as the standardized tests. Basically, although hard to believe, filling in a fucking circle and concentrating on text might be hard for someone who for his whole life has only read a few books for pleasure and has never been in an exam setting before.

I'll bring a quote from my first year cognitive science course,

Lave (1988) showed that Berkeley housewives who successfully could do the mathematics needed for comparison shopping in the supermarket were unable to do the same mathematics when they were placed in a classroom and given isomorphic problems presented in an abstract form. In other words, their problem was not at the level of mental processes but at the level of applying the processes in specific environmental contexts

That being said, its pretty fucking sad if you can't read a fucking map in a test, no real difference between a map on a test and a map in RL other than filling in a circle, having a limited time to do it and being under pressure. Maybe the map question is part of the 40% right answers for the US students.

Brian

[brianeyci]

determining how much change they'll get back from a $20 if the bill is $17.85.

The scary part is, I went through most of high school ignoring my mental processes and using the calculator as a crutch. Not that I don't know how to add, subtract, divide or calculate fractions, but I got so used to the calculator that I didn't bother to use my brain. My math marks reflected this, but I was always able to get a B because high school math is pure computation except for the "Part Z" type questions.

Now that I'm in uni, I'm having to retrain myself (can't use calculators at all, they are banned lol). And I actually had to think for that 17.85 question using my fingers, more habit than me not being able to do it in my head takes about 3 seconds, I suppose it takes 1 second for you.

They should fucking ban calculators in high schools.

Brian

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

So what are canadians doing differently, and why doesn't the government take some notes?

[Lord Zentei]

Do anyone have the math questions they used in that study?

The PISA website has a link to the test questions. I can't access them, perhaps you need to sign up or something.

One more note. The formatting of the test may have a lot to do with the test scores. It might be hard for academics to believe, but not really when you consider how you prepare for tests. If you can think back to when you were in school, or are like me and are in school, think of how you studied. If you were successful, you probably anticipated the types of questions and the types of answers, especially the types of answers.

Arguably, but proper mathematical training includes the ability to adapt your skill, knowledge and experience to the situation. The essence of mathematics is it's abstract and universal nature. Failing to adress this is not IMO a good educational policy.

[brianeyci]

I say the problem is more social than educational. I mean come on, calculating change, reading a map, doing a close reading of something like "triangle PQR, midpoint, etc". Has nothing to do with real math, and everything to do with real life skills.

The problem is way more complex than private schools versus public schools, and has to be dealt by the Republican swear word, "mult-lateral approach" involving community centers, beefing up after-school programs, having ads on TV channels kids watch telling them that education is important in their own language. I could see something like a kid going up, with DW's example of 17.85 out of 20 and not being able to count change, or read a map, being really effective sort of like anti-smoking ads.

Also more exam-like settings in HS, remedial programs, etc., and really put more importance on education and academics through public awareness and those TV ads focused on kids. The ads would have to run for awhile though, and would take a decade for us to see the effect (10 year olds now, becoming 18 ), but hey smoking ads worked.

Brian

[Xon]

determining how much change they'll get back from a $20 if the bill is $17.85.

The scary part is, I went through most of high school ignoring my mental processes and using the calculator as a crutch. Not that I don't know how to add, subtract, divide or calculate fractions, but I got so used to the calculator that I didn't bother to use my brain. My math marks reflected this, but I was always able to get a B because high school math is pure computation except for the "Part Z" type questions.

Now that I'm in uni, I'm having to retrain myself (can't use calculators at all, they are banned lol). And I actually had to think for that 17.85 question using my fingers, more habit than me not being able to do it in my head takes about 3 seconds, I suppose it takes 1 second for you.

They should fucking ban calculators in high schools.

Brian

I stopped doing simple number crunching as the main focus of math's class half way though year 8. Sure there was number crunching later, but as the allowed calculator got more complex the teachers just rewrote the tests to be non directly solvable by the calculator.

Even the utter low end maths class for the graduating year(Year 12) was beyond Raw number crunching aka basic arithmetic.

[brianeyci]

Even the utter low end maths class for the graduating year(Year 12) was beyond Raw number crunching aka basic arithmetic.

Depends on what you consider number crunching. I consider a lot of easy calculus number crunching, or simply remembering formulas and plugging them in in HS. It wasn't raw number crunching, but usually getting the final answer involved doing some incredibly simple computation, which I always relied on my calculator for. You wouldn't believe how many times I put in 2 + 2 or 7 x 12.

There was also a strange situation in Ontario, Canada, which involved the elimination of an entire grade of school (grade 13). I was at the edge of the wave, so some classes I got grade 12 classes and some grade 13 classes. So sometimes, I was taking stuff intended for year-before-graduating people and sometimes stuff for not graduating people.

Brian