Canada scores #3 on math tests (USA not in top 20)

[Lord Zentei]

I say the problem is more social than educational. I mean come on, calculating change, reading a map, doing a close reading of something like "triangle PQR, midpoint, etc". Has nothing to do with real math, and everything to do with real life skills.

Although social issues are important, that is no excuse for a bad educational infrastructure. The things you mentioned have plenty to do with mathematics. Applied math, sure, but math nonetheless.

The problem is way more complex than private schools versus public schools, and has to be dealt by the Republican swear word, "mult-lateral approach" involving community centers, beefing up after-school programs, having ads on TV channels kids watch telling them that education is important in their own language. I could see something like a kid going up, with DW's example of 17.85 out of 20 and not being able to count change, or read a map, being really effective sort of like anti-smoking ads.

I never claimed that the problem was about private scools versus publec schools; as my earlier posts show I claim the problem is good schools versus bad schools. I quite specifically stated that good private systems are possible if handled properly. Anyway, not being able to calculate 20 - 17.85 is just pathetic no matter how you slice it.

Also more exam-like settings in HS, remedial programs, etc., and really put more importance on education and academics through public awareness and those TV ads focused on kids. The ads would have to run for awhile though, and would take a decade for us to see the effect (10 year olds now, becoming 18 ), but hey smoking ads worked.

Sure, why not. It still won't undo the need for better schools, though.

[brianeyci]

The things you mentioned have plenty to do with mathematics. Applied math, sure, but math nonetheless.

Syntatically, sure, those problems have to do with math. Just like washing dishes syntatically has to do with cooking food. Doesn't mean that semantically, those simple piece of shit problems are really "math". Applied math in uni are the hardest kind of math courses. If I typed in the description for an applied math course, unless you were a mathematician the paragraph would probably translate into gibberish. Mathematicians would sneer at the math in the standardized test being called "math", not because it was ridiculously easy but because those problems don't really follow the spirit of math.

In reality, reading a map and determining the scale and figuring out change and doing a close reading of a paragraph to find midpoints of a line isn't really math, those things are real life skills. The more you advertise them as real life skills, the more kids will ditch the "nerdy math geek" moniker and realize that reading a map and figuring out change and doing a careful reading are life skills.

I quite specifically stated that good private systems are possible if handled properly. Anyway, not being able to calculate 20 - 17.85 is just pathetic no matter how you slice it.

Well I'm saying that it really doesn't matter. Private schools are bad shit, but turning all private schools into public schools or banning private schools is only part of the solution, and a general one at that which would only generally increase the level of eduation competency and won't be focused on "math" specifically.

Sure, why not. It still won't undo the need for better schools, though.

Targeted TV ads and a change in mentality is exactly the way to get people to figure out that adding fractions and reading a map and basic literacy is important, far more focused than some generalized "better schools" policy.

Maybe something like this,

--
"Yo, you got a quarter I can borrow?"

"Yeah, its right here."

"Here, I'll give you a quarter for that five."

Don't be stupid. Learn to add.
--

Lol obviously a much more realistic setting, well though out and not as stupid as the one above. But you get the picture. Also after-school programs where kids can stay, play sports, and the teacher sneaks in a bit of math in the end lol.

Brian

[Lord Zentei]

Syntatically, sure, those problems have to do with math. Just like washing dishes syntatically has to do with cooking food. Doesn't mean that semantically, those simple piece of shit problems are really "math". Applied math in uni are the hardest kind of math courses. If I typed in the description for an applied math course, unless you were a mathematician the paragraph would probably translate into gibberish. Mathematicians would sneer at the math in the standardized test being called "math", not because it was ridiculously easy but because those problems don't really follow the spirit of math.

Whatever. They are still applied math, and the students still did pathetically.

In reality, reading a map and determining the scale and figuring out change and doing a close reading of a paragraph to find midpoints of a line isn't really math, those things are real life skills. The more you advertise them as real life skills, the more kids will ditch the "nerdy math geek" moniker and realize that reading a map and figuring out change and doing a careful reading are life skills.

Sure. That doesn't mean that schools can't also teach them.

I quite specifically stated that good private systems are possible if handled properly. Anyway, not being able to calculate 20 - 17.85 is just pathetic no matter how you slice it.

Well I'm saying that it really doesn't matter. Private schools are bad shit, but turning all private schools into public schools or banning private schools is only part of the solution, and a general one at that which would only generally increase the level of eduation competency and won't be focused on "math" specifically.

I never advocated "turning all private schools into public schools or banning private schools" at all. Please read my posts, brianeyci.

Sure, why not. It still won't undo the need for better schools, though.

Targeted TV ads and a change in mentality is exactly the way to get people to figure out that adding fractions and reading a map and basic literacy is important, far more focused than some generalized "better schools" policy.

Maybe something like this,

--
"Yo, you got a quarter I can borrow?"

"Yeah, its right here."

"Here, I'll give you a quarter for that five."

Don't be stupid. Learn to add.
--

Lol obviously a much more realistic setting, well though out and not as stupid as the one above. But you get the picture. Also after-school programs where kids can stay, play sports, and the teacher sneaks in a bit of math in the end lol.

Brian

Other countries did much better, despite not having advertising campaigns of the type you mention. But if it helps, then sure, it is a good idea.

[brianeyci]

Whatever. They are still applied math, and the students still did pathetically.

Syntatically, they are a simple piece of shit out of my ass I would probably get wrong because I think it is pointless applied math. What I am saying is that you need to advertise those skills as not math, but lifeskills to get through the numbskulls who avoid learning how to add fractions because it is geeky.

Sure. That doesn't mean that schools can't also teach them.

Yes, they can teach them. But the important thing is getting through the cultural barriers. You can learn how to read a map with a scale with the most basic of grade school materials. You need to penetrate the culture of thinking of math as some sort of ivory tower entity, and lure kids into math. Then throw them the Taylor series expansions when you've sufficiently hooked them .

I never advocated "turning all private schools into public schools or banning private schools" at all. Please read my posts, brianeyci.

I never said that you did. I am just saying that any solution involving private/public schools is relevant only to the point where it will increase general educational competency. It was a general comment.

If you want me to focus on your specific assertion that private schools can work alongside public schools, there is a very simple argument against your rationale. Sure private schools can work alongside public schools, in theory.

In practise though, when you have one system that is well-funded and one system that is publicly funded, you're fucked. Think about it, it is just like the "separate but equal" bullshit that fundies want to apply to gay people. "Separate but equal" is a theoretical reality but a practical impossibility. When the one system that is well-funded, which is better than the publicly funded system which can be gutted by politicians, families well-to-do will pay for their kids to get a good education, ghettoizing the public system. If more money means you can hire better teachers and have a better environment, then private school wins and the ghettoizing begins. Public schools would recieve less funding than private schools, what is the point of maintaining a strong public education system when your students are leaving the system in droves?

Other countries did much better, despite not having advertising campaigns of the type you mention. But if it helps, then sure, it is a good idea.

That's because other countries don't have the same culture as the United States. I'm not trying to emphasize racial stereotypes here, but a kid in China might not have access to all the distractions and choices that US kids do. Plus a lot Chinese parents place a large importance on kid's academic achievement generally. Now to alter generally the scores on math tests and increase mathematical competency, you have to promote a culture of academia, and get rid of the "math is for geeks" ideology.

Brian

[Lord Zentei]

Syntatically, they are a simple piece of shit out of my ass I would probably get wrong because I think it is pointless applied math.

Tsk, tsk.

What I am saying is that you need to advertise those skills as not math, but lifeskills to get through the numbskulls who avoid learning how to add fractions because it is geeky.

Fair enough.

Yes, they can teach them. But the important thing is getting through the cultural barriers. You can learn how to read a map with a scale with the most basic of grade school materials. You need to penetrate the culture of thinking of math as some sort of ivory tower entity, and lure kids into math. Then throw them the Taylor series expansions when you've sufficiently hooked them .

Again, fair enough. This barrier-breaking can just as well take place in schools as anywhere else, though as I have stated, 'if it works, go for it' and that includes advertising campaigns. Also, it does not absolve the educational community of their failures.

I never advocated "turning all private schools into public schools or banning private schools" at all. Please read my posts, brianeyci.

I never said that you did. I am just saying that any solution involving private/public schools is relevant only to the point where it will increase general educational competency. It was a general comment.

If you want me to focus on your specific assertion that private schools can work alongside public schools, there is a very simple argument against your rationale. Sure private schools can work alongside public schools, in theory.

In practise though, when you have one system that is well-funded and one system that is publicly funded, you're fucked. Think about it, it is just like the "separate but equal" bullshit that fundies want to apply to gay people. "Separate but equal" is a theoretical reality but a practical impossibility. When the one system that is well-funded, which is better than the publicly funded system which can be gutted by politicians, families well-to-do will pay for their kids to get a good education, ghettoizing the public system. If more money means you can hire better teachers and have a better environment, then private school wins and the ghettoizing begins. Public schools would recieve less funding than private schools, what is the point of maintaining a strong public education system when your students are leaving the system in droves?

I did mention the fact that the Netherlands did well despite having a public/private system. It is not impossible to acheive. Nationalizing private schools would not cause them to become better, for instance, much less would the schools already under state control become better.

Other countries did much better, despite not having advertising campaigns of the type you mention. But if it helps, then sure, it is a good idea.

That's because other countries don't have the same culture as the United States. I'm not trying to emphasize racial stereotypes here, but a kid in China might not have access to all the distractions and choices that US kids do. Plus a lot Chinese parents place a large importance on kid's academic achievement generally. Now to alter generally the scores on math tests and increase mathematical competency, you have to promote a culture of academia, and get rid of the "math is for geeks" ideology.

A repetition of the above: "Again, fair enough. This barrier-breaking can just as well take place in schools as anywhere else, though as I have stated, 'if it works, go for it' and that includes advertising campaigns. Also, it does not absolve the educational community of their failures."

[Coyote]

Well, I have to admit, there has to be something done to help folks like myself-- I have a very, very hard time with math and always have. Even when I was a kid and like a lot of children, eager to learn new things (back when learning was 'fun'), I choked hard on math.

I studied, I tried, I had amazing support from my parents who did everything in the book to make learning math seem fun, or interesting, or challenging, whatever... I just cannot seem to wrap my mind around numerics. To this day, even pathetically simple addition and subtraction stops me cold and I need a calculator to get by.

Words, abstract thought, history, research, politics-- I can dive right into that and find whatever I need, and was reading and writing at a level far beyond my peers (12th grade reading level at 4th grade)- but numbers? Stop the bus.

So what about us mathtards?

[Darth Wong]

Private schools can peacefully coexist with public schools as long as two conditions are met:

1. The majority of kids still go to public school, even in reasonably upscale neighbourhoods.
2. People who opt to send their kids to private school cannot opt out of funding public schools through taxation. This is the problem with vouchers.
3. Education standards are the same or better
4. Observance of human-rights principles are the same or better

My problem with private schools is when they either hurt the public system, get neglected because the most influential people in society never use them, or are permitted to disregard human-rights rules or education standards and teach idiotic bullshit like "Evolution theory is false" or "The sons of Ham, such as the Negroes, are to be the Servants of Mankind".

[Lord Zentei]

If I understand it correctly, the Dutch system works as follows:

1) The families receive the $$$ in the form of vouchers, not the scools.
2) families can pick any school they want, thus there are no district school baronies (thus no schools have a monopoly on a large segment of the population absolving them from competition that private schools face).
3) All schools must comply with state education standards (thus no 'sons of Ham' bullshit).
4) Scools may not require additional payment beyond the $$$ given to the families (thus no preference for the wealthy elite).

[salm]

Of course, today my idiot history teacher gave us a little lecture about how America's schools are so kickass because we're the only country in the world that lets *everyone* go to school, even if they do poorly.

I was certain she was pulling that out of her jingoistic fundie ass then, and I'm even more certain now.

interesting. AFAIK most western countries force everybody to go to school.

[PainRack]

Just an interesting anacedote to Countness Marina quip.

A couple of years back, my younger brother completed his Primary School Leaving Examination, taken at the tender age of 12. The Math exam had a tad of controversy, as several parents wrote in to complain that the standards set were too high.

My bro, being the genius he is, said, no it wasn't. Even the "creative" problems were quite easy to do(background info:every year, there's about 2-3 questions which are made very difficult to do linearly, thus testing the ability of students to play with numbers creatively).
My mum was not convinced and showed me the paper, asking me whether it was easy to do.
Seeing the shock on my face and interpretating that as my inability to do the questions, my brother said"here's how you do it."
I cut him off and replied," I have a faster way to do it. It involves summation and intergration. I just completed the chapter, you want me to teach you?"
That's right. The questions involved were calculus and other more advanced mathamathical topics.