Sole provider could boost Humvee Armor output 22% if ordered

[Plekhanov]

Prepare to be disgusted

Armor Holdings Could Boost Humvee Armor Output 22% (Update2)

Dec. 9 (Bloomberg) -- Armor Holdings Inc., the sole supplier of protective plates for the Humvee military vehicles used in Iraq, said it could increase output by as much as 22 percent per month with no investment and is awaiting an order from the Army.

U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said yesterday the Army was working as fast as it can and supply is dictated by ``a matter of physics, not a matter of money.''

Jacksonville, Florida-based Armor Holdings last month told the Army it could add armor to as many as 550 of the trucks a month, up from 450 vehicles now, Robert Mecredy, president of the company's aerospace and defense group said in a telephone interview today.

``We're prepared to build 50 to 100 vehicles more per month,'' Mecredy said in the interview. ``I've told the customer that and I stand ready to do that.''

Insurgent attacks on the vehicles with homemade bombs and rocket-propelled grenades are accounting for as much as half of the more than 1,000 U.S. deaths and 9,000 U.S. wounded in Iraq, according to Congressional estimates.

President George W. Bush said concerns raised by soldiers in questions to Rumsfeld yesterday in Kuwait are being addressed,'' Bush said in response to a reporter's question. ``We expect our troops to have the best possible equipment. If I were a soldier overseas wanting to defend my country I'd want to ask the Secretary of Defense the same question, and that is are we getting the best'' equipment, he said. ``They deserve the best.''

`Hillbilly Armor'

U.S. troops preparing for deployment to Iraq told Rumsfeld yesterday they are salvaging armor from landfills to install ``hillbilly armor'' on their Humvees. Rumsfeld replied that ``you have to go to war with the Army you have.''

Armor Holdings has already boosted output from 60 vehicles a month a year ago, said Mecredy, 58. As a result of the increased output, Armor Holdings has cut the price for the armor its supplies for the trucks to $58,000 per vehicle, from $72,000 per vehicle a year ago, Mecredy said.

Shares of Armor Holdings rose 66 cents, or 1.6 percent in New York Stock Exchange composite trading at 11:34 a.m.

When he was asked about current production yesterday, Rumsfeld wasn't sure of the exact figure saying ``it's something like 400 a month are being done.''

``It's a matter of production and capability of doing it,'' Rumsfeld, 72, said.

Tesia William, a spokeswoman for the Army Materiel Command, which handles the armored Humvee program, had no immediate comment on the status of orders.

Production of the armor needs to be coordinated with output of the actual trucks by AM General LLC of South Bend, Indiana, Mecredy said. AM General spokesman Lee Woodward also said that truck output could also be increased.

``If they ordered more trucks, we'd build more trucks,'' Woodward said. ``We're not close to capacity. It might take some time to ramp up but we can do it.''

Woodward declined to provide exact details on production capacity.

The main reason there isn't enough armor is because the military has underestimated its own needs, said Meghan Keck, spokeswoman for Senator Evan Bayh, an Indiana Democrat. Bayh wrote a letter to Rumsfeld in October calling for a more accurate estimate of Humvee needs.

``If the Army would be up front about the number of Humvees needed, the companies would be able to set their production accordingly to meet the need,'' Keck said in a phone interview.

The current US administration never fails to amaze me whenever I think there's nothing else they could to lower themselves something like this comes along.

``We expect our troops to have the best possible equipment. If I were a soldier overseas wanting to defend my country

the draft dodging fucks complete lack of shame astonishes me

I'd want to ask the Secretary of Defense the same question, and that is are we getting the best'' equipment, he said. ``They deserve the best.''

Yeah they do but sadly they got you in the whitehouse and scavenged scrap for armour on their trucks.

[Elfdart]

Rumsfeld is full of shit? Say it ain't so!

[frigidmagi]

Business Men Should Not Run Militaries. EVER.

[Wicked Pilot]

Acquisitions is a complex beast. It's possible that the Army for a number of reasons just hasn't been able to get itself into gear to accept such an increase just yet. This whole thing may not be a simple as you think.

[SirNitram]

This is the shithead administration that blows vast amounts on the military, comes crawling back for extra money, and they can't armour their vehicles?

What, you need more psychic teleportation studies? Need to pour more money down the Future Soldier 2020 hole a bunch of college students made up to laugh at you with? Oh, I know! How about that NBM Shield that isn't even tested, but you're putting up anyways?

This makes me fucking sick.

[RedImperator]

It's possible this is an acquisitions fuckup, like Wicked Pilot said. With a competent administration and Defense Department, I might be more forgiving. But the goodwill pool ran dry quite a while ago.

[Sea Skimmer]

Meanwhile however, the fact that O'Gara-Hess, the company which makes the M1114, a purpose built armored hummve, and has built a completely new factory to ramp up production of the vehicle (currently something like 6,000 delivered) since the war began is ignored. Ten to one the reason why the far inferior bolt on armor kits haven't been produced at the maximum possibul rate is either because the company decided to built them slower and thus keep its self working for longer (since once enough M1114's are produced its product will no longer be needed) or its because the existing orders which have been placed with both companies already meet the projected demand for this budget. And they aren't being stingy on what demand is expected to be, we now probably have more armored vehicles in Iraq for 140,000 or so men then we had for the Gulf War invasion with 500,000

[Broomstick]

Since I deal with government bureaucracies almost daily between work (NHS, CMS, IOM, CDC, etc., etc.) and play (FAA) I understand that behind the scenes matters can be more complicated than they first appear.

However --

The current problem is threefold.

First - any time your boys on the front are scavanging, whether for food, clothing, or armor you have have a supply line problem. This inevitably happens in war, but you still must fix the problem(s) or lose your assets, i.e. men.

Second - The DC crowd (Bush, Rummy, assorted neocons) are going to have a massive public relations problem if they don't get a handle on this, which could seriously impact their effectiveness in governing. Politically, this is a problem

Third - while it's all very well to discuss in the abstract, the result in the real world are killed and maimed young men (and a few women as well). There's another thread I started about medical care for the military wounded, and someone posted a link to a photoessay on the injuries being suffered in Iraq. I have to warn you that the pictures are extremely graphic, but if you want to see the real-world consequences of these decisions/problems/complexities there is a photo specifically labeled as showing the consequences to human flesh when a humvee drives over an "improvised explosive device". Yes, some injury, maiming and death is inevitable in war, but are YOU prepared to tell young men such as that, that he didn't have sufficient protection because of politics and paperwork, or can you tell him that you did everything you could to avoid such a thing?

If you ask me, folks who are involved in making some of these decision should have pictures - in all their technicolor glory - of the consequences if their decisions are the wrong ones, or the incomplete ones. These should be posted somewhere they are forced to look multiple times per day.

The American public is ready - nay, eager - to do more for the troops being shot and blown up whether we agree with the war or not. More armor for the boys abroad would be a shoo-in. We want the sons and husbands and fathers (and daughters, wives, and mothers) to come home whole, not in pieces or in boxes.

[Darth Wong]

Meanwhile however, the fact that O'Gara-Hess, the company which makes the M1114, a purpose built armored hummve, and has built a completely new factory to ramp up production of the vehicle (currently something like 6,000 delivered) since the war began is ignored. Ten to one the reason why the far inferior bolt on armor kits haven't been produced at the maximum possibul rate is either because the company decided to built them slower and thus keep its self working for longer (since once enough M1114's are produced its product will no longer be needed) or its because the existing orders which have been placed with both companies already meet the projected demand for this budget. And they aren't being stingy on what demand is expected to be, we now probably have more armored vehicles in Iraq for 140,000 or so men then we had for the Gulf War invasion with 500,000

In other words, there's a better solution coming down the pipe so they don't want to spend the (relatively insignificant money) for a stopgap solution to get us from here to there, even though the penalty for this omission will be paid in lives while the cost is only money. Yup- typical businessmen.

[Coyote]

We bitch about this every day-- not only are there not enough armored vehicles, but the parts and lubricants we need are hard to come by. I've taken vehicles into sector that, in a training environment, I would flat-out refuse to move due to safety violations from a lack of adequate materials.

But... skillions for flashy Buck Rogers projects of dubious workability and need. Uh-huh.

It's not logistics-- every other week the chow hall here serves crab legs. Supplies can and are getting through. There's a lack of willpower to deliver anything beyond cheap rhetoric, IMO.

[Admiral Valdemar]

We bitch about this every day-- not only are there not enough armored vehicles, but the parts and lubricants we need are hard to come by. I've taken vehicles into sector that, in a training environment, I would flat-out refuse to move due to safety violations from a lack of adequate materials.

But... skillions for flashy Buck Rogers projects of dubious workability and need. Uh-huh.

It's not logistics-- every other week the chow hall here serves crab legs. Supplies can and are getting through. There's a lack of willpower to deliver anything beyond cheap rhetoric, IMO.

Oh don't be daft. You'll be singing a different tune when that pristine new NMD system stops a deadly accidental launch from the USS... Russia and also defies the deadly IRBMs of the DPRK that are constantly aimed at our shores.

You're un-American, letting terrorism win over you.

[Coyote]

Oh don't be daft. You'll be singing a different tune when that pristine new NMD system stops a deadly accidental launch from the USS... Russia and also defies the deadly IRBMs of the DPRK that are constantly aimed at our shores.

You're un-American, letting terrorism win over you.

(Falls to ground, sobbing) I've been weak! Forgive me!

[Darth Wong]

Gotta love those quick-response Republican spin-doctors. They're already going to all the news outlets and explaining that the question was planted by a reporter, as if this somehow negates the fact that the military audience loudly cheered it or the fact that Rumsfeld had no good answers.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Gotta love those quick-response Republican spin-doctors. They're already going to all the news outlets and explaining that the question was planted by a reporter, as if this somehow negates the fact that the military audience loudly cheered it or the fact that Rumsfeld had no good answers.

Amazing how efficient the gov't can be when it comes to propaganda to the contrary of factual reality. Guess priorities change when it's your neck on the chopping block, careerwise, rather than some poor sod in some backwater nation hoping he doesn't get shot, maimed or otherwise KIA'd for one extra day.

[Lord Zentei]

First dragon's statement on the price of an armour upgrade for a humvee ($7800) and and now this. My opinion of the administration's handling of the war has dropped even further. This is un-fucking-believable.

What, you need more psychic teleportation studies?

You're kidding, right?

This makes me fucking sick.

Word.

[Lord Zentei]

First - any time your boys on the front are scavanging, whether for food, clothing, or armor you have have a supply line problem. This inevitably happens in war, but you still must fix the problem(s) or lose your assets, i.e. men.

Second - The DC crowd (Bush, Rummy, assorted neocons) are going to have a massive public relations problem if they don't get a handle on this, which could seriously impact their effectiveness in governing. Politically, this is a problem

There is some hope for belated improvement, then. The contrast between the reception Bush received during his thanksgiving visit and the reception Rumsfeld received now may have given the White House pause.

[Durandal]

We bitch about this every day-- not only are there not enough armored vehicles, but the parts and lubricants we need are hard to come by. I've taken vehicles into sector that, in a training environment, I would flat-out refuse to move due to safety violations from a lack of adequate materials.

Well duh, Coyote. You weren't the Army that Rummy wanted to go to war with. You were what he settled for.

[Ma Deuce]

In other words, there's a better solution coming down the pipe so they don't want to spend the (relatively insignificant money) for a stopgap solution to get us from here to there, even though the penalty for this omission will be paid in lives while the cost is only money. Yup- typical businessmen.

Reminds me of how Congress terminated funding for LOSAT: even though the Army had already began procuring the missile (which means terminating LOSAT at that point would force them to pay out massive contract-termination fees), they voted to kill it because the C-KEM (which would supposedly make LOSAT obsolete) would be coming along by 2010...

[dragon]

First dragon's statement on the price of an armour upgrade for a humvee ($7800) and and now this. My opinion of the administration's handling of the war has dropped even further. This is un-fucking-believable.

What, you need more psychic teleportation studies?

You're kidding, right?

This makes me fucking sick.

Word.

That figured I got was from the AFN news network knowing them they dropped a zero or something on the telepromter.

[SirNitram]

What, you need more psychic teleportation studies?

You're kidding, right?

No. The USAF did a 7 million dollar study on means of teleportation, including Psychic Teleportation, Wormholes, and probably crap with the word 'Quantum' tossed in.

This isn't the end of it, though.

The Army is shovelling money at 'Future Warrior'. It comes in two flavors: 2010 and 2020. 2010 is actually somewhat competent; stronger, rigid armour in the body armour, protecting more than just the centre mass, better information exchange between units, yanno, stuff that saves lives. 2020, however, is what you get if you read the nanotechnology briefs on Orion's Arm.. Completely divorced from reality but you can definately hear the speaker panting heavily as he's jerking himself off. We're talking about a project where, apparently, a soldier can super-hero-ly transform his business suit into an inpenetrable battlesuit straight out of SG-1's 'Evolution'.

The NMD project may actually get off the ground, but I'm not holding my breath. Major components, including the much touted 747 with a nose-mounted chemical laser, have never been successfully tested.

[dragon]

You think its bad having to dig through a landfill for armor. My friend had his mom by him a new vest and send it to him as his unit was out of vests. He got shot and the militray told him it was his fault for not using approved armor. This armr he received was far better than whats currenlty offered by the army. At least the leaders recently decided that it was ok for them to buyt there own armor.

[dragon]

What, you need more psychic teleportation studies?

You're kidding, right?

No. The USAF did a 7 million dollar study on means of teleportation, including Psychic Teleportation, Wormholes, and probably crap with the word 'Quantum' tossed in.

This isn't the end of it, though.

The Army is shovelling money at 'Future Warrior'. It comes in two flavors: 2010 and 2020. 2010 is actually somewhat competent; stronger, rigid armour in the body armour, protecting more than just the centre mass, better information exchange between units, yanno, stuff that saves lives. 2020, however, is what you get if you read the nanotechnology briefs on Orion's Arm.. Completely divorced from reality but you can definately hear the speaker panting heavily as he's jerking himself off. We're talking about a project where, apparently, a soldier can super-hero-ly transform his business suit into an inpenetrable battlesuit straight out of SG-1's 'Evolution'.

The NMD project may actually get off the ground, but I'm not holding my breath. Major components, including the much touted 747 with a nose-mounted chemical laser, have never been successfully tested.

As matter of fact someone post the entire study on another topic.

[phongn]

As a minor nitpick, ABL is not really a component of NMD. It's more theatre missile defense (one of the boost phase components).

[Lord Zentei]

What, you need more psychic teleportation studies?

You're kidding, right?

No. The USAF did a 7 million dollar study on means of teleportation, including Psychic Teleportation, Wormholes, and probably crap with the word 'Quantum' tossed in.

Jesus. That alone would have paid for armour upgrades on 900 humvees.

This isn't the end of it, though.

The Army is shovelling money at 'Future Warrior'. It comes in two flavors: 2010 and 2020. 2010 is actually somewhat competent; stronger, rigid armour in the body armour, protecting more than just the centre mass, better information exchange between units, yanno, stuff that saves lives. 2020, however, is what you get if you read the nanotechnology briefs on Orion's Arm.. <snip>

Ah, body armour. Such a concept. If only they would spend a fraction of the money used for God-knows what on currently available armour for the current armed forces. And what a surprise that nano-esque tech was to be found somewhere in these bizarre plans.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Jesus. That alone would have paid for armour upgrades on 900 humvees.

Yeah, but now we know that it's impossible to teleport the 7th Cavalry to Iraq using a regular Fortean Times reader's mind.