Leading Atheist Philosopher Concludes God's Real

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Leading Atheist Philosopher Concludes God's Real

Post by Galvatron »

Reported by Fox News, of course...

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NEW YORK — A British philosophy professor who has been a leading champion of atheism (search) for more than a half-century has changed his mind. He now believes in God — more or less — based on scientific evidence, and says so on a video released Thursday.

At age 81, after decades of insisting belief is a mistake, Antony Flew (search) has concluded that some sort of intelligence or first cause must have created the universe. A super-intelligence is the only good explanation for the origin of life and the complexity of nature, Flew said in a telephone interview from England.

Flew said he's best labeled a deist like Thomas Jefferson (search), whose God was not actively involved in people's lives.

"I'm thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian and far and away from the God of Islam, because both are depicted as omnipotent Oriental despots, cosmic Saddam Husseins," he said. "It could be a person in the sense of a being that has intelligence and a purpose, I suppose."

Flew first made his mark with the 1950 article "Theology and Falsification," based on a paper for the Socratic Club (search), a weekly Oxford religious forum led by writer and Christian thinker C.S. Lewis.

Over the years, Flew proclaimed the lack of evidence for God while teaching at Oxford, Aberdeen, Keele, and Reading universities in Britain, in visits to numerous U.S. and Canadian campuses and in books, articles, lectures and debates.

There was no one moment of change but a gradual conclusion over recent months for Flew, a spry man who still does not believe in an afterlife.

Yet biologists' investigation of DNA "has shown, by the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce (life), that intelligence must have been involved," Flew says in the new video, "Has Science Discovered God?"

The video draws from a New York discussion last May organized by author Roy Abraham Varghese's Institute for Metascientific Research in Garland, Texas. Participants were Flew; Varghese; Israeli physicist Gerald Schroeder, an Orthodox Jew; and Roman Catholic philosopher John Haldane of Scotland's University of St. Andrews.

The first hint of Flew's turn was a letter to the August-September issue of Britain's Philosophy Now magazine. "It has become inordinately difficult even to begin to think about constructing a naturalistic theory of the evolution of that first reproducing organism," he wrote.

The letter commended arguments in Schroeder's "The Hidden Face of God" and "The Wonder of the World" by Varghese, an Eastern Rite Catholic layman.

This week, Flew finished writing the first formal account of his new outlook for the introduction to a new edition of his "God and Philosophy," scheduled for release next year by Prometheus Books.

Prometheus specializes in skeptical thought, but if his belief upsets people, well "that's too bad," Flew said. "My whole life has been guided by the principle of Plato's Socrates: Follow the evidence, wherever it leads."

Last week, Richard Carrier, a writer and Columbia University graduate student, posted new material based on correspondence with Flew on the atheistic www.infidels.org Web page. Carrier assured atheists that Flew accepts only a "minimal God" and believes in no afterlife.

Flew's "name and stature are big. Whenever you hear people talk about atheists, Flew always comes up," Carrier said. Still, when it comes to Flew's reversal, "apart from curiosity, I don't think it's like a big deal."

Flew told The Associated Press his current ideas have some similarity with American "intelligent design" theorists, who see evidence for a guiding force in the construction of the universe. He accepts Darwinian evolution but doubts it can explain the ultimate origins of life.

A Methodist minister's son, Flew became an atheist at 15.

Early in his career, he argued that no conceivable events could constitute proof against God for believers, so skeptics were right to wonder whether the concept of God meant anything at all.

Another landmark was his 1984 "The Presumption of Atheism," playing off the presumption of innocence in criminal law. Flew said the debate over God must begin by presuming atheism, putting the burden of proof on those arguing that God exists.
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

how is this fucking newsworthy?
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Post by Wicked Pilot »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:how is this fucking newsworthy?
It's FOX, since when do they give a shit?
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Post by Galvatron »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:how is this fucking newsworthy?
I agree, but since it was reported as news I figured this was the best place to post it. Otherwise I'd have put it in SLAM.
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Fox News wrote: OMFG 4n 47h3i5t c0nv3r73d to G0dizm!!!111shift+1111lllleleven!!!
A7h3i5m i57 73h 5uxx0rz!!!!1111Shift+1lllleleven
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Post by Alan Bolte »

Philosopher, huh? Don't even get my started about philosophers. Intelligent design? Sounds like he hasn't even been listening to what intelligent design advocates are saying. And then he concludes - for no particular stated reason, mind you - that we'll never have a sufficiently convincing explanation of how to go from non-life to life. As if current explanations aren't good enough - if he even knows about them. No, no, I better stop here, I'm going to get irritated.

Anyway, who here had actually heard about this guy before today? As far as I know, 'leading atheist philospher' just means 'leading atheist among philosophers,' not something that should mean anything to your typical atheist.
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Post by Aaron »

Well at least he got the "Orietnal despots, cosmic Saddam Hussein" bit right.
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Post by Darth Wong »

81 years old? More proof that an atheist might think intelligent design makes sense once he becomes old, mentally enfeebled, and senile.
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Post by SirNitram »

Meanwhile, over at Secular Web...
Sorry to Disappoint, but I'm Still an Atheist!
by Antony Flew


Antony Flew in the 50sRichard C. Carrier, current Editor in Chief of the Secular Web, tells me that "the internet has now become awash with rumors" that I "have converted to Christianity, or am at least no longer an atheist." Perhaps because I was born too soon to be involved in the internet world I had heard nothing of this rumour. So Mr. Carrier asks me to explain myself in cyberspace. This, with the help of the Internet Infidels, I now attempt.

Those rumours speak false. I remain still what I have been now for over fifty years, a negative atheist. By this I mean that I construe the initial letter in the word 'atheist' in the way in which everyone construes the same initial letter in such words as 'atypical' and 'amoral'. For I still believe that it is impossible either to verify or to falsify - to show to be false - what David Hume in his Dialogues concerning Natural Religion happily described as "the religious hypothesis." The more I contemplate the eschatological teachings of Christianity and Islam the more I wish I could demonstrate their falsity.

I first argued the impossibility in 'Theology and Falsification', a short paper originally published in 1950 and since reprinted over forty times in different places, including translations into German, Italian, Spanish, Danish, Welsh, Finnish and Slovak. The most recent reprint was as part of 'A Golden Jubilee Celebration' in the October/November 2001 issue of the semi-popular British journal Philosophy Now, which the editors of that periodical have graciously allowed the Internet Infidels to publish online: see "Theology & Falsification."

I can suggest only one possible source of the rumours. Several weeks ago I submitted to the Editor of Philo (The Journal of the Society of Humanist Philosophers) a short paper making two points which might well disturb atheists of the more positive kind. The point more relevant here was that it can be entirely rational for believers and negative atheists to respond in quite different ways to the same scientific developments.

We negative atheists are bound to see the Big Bang cosmology as requiring a physical explanation; and that one which, in the nature of the case, may nevertheless be forever inaccessible to human beings. But believers may, equally reasonably, welcome the Big Bang cosmology as tending to confirm their prior belief that "in the beginning" the Universe was created by God.

Again, negative atheists meeting the argument that the fundamental constants of physics would seem to have been 'fine tuned' to make the emergence of mankind possible will first object to the application of either the frequency or the propensity theory of probability 'outside' the Universe, and then go on to ask why omnipotence should have been satisfied to produce a Universe in which the origin and rise of the human race was merely possible rather than absolutely inevitable. But believers are equally bound and, on their opposite assumptions, equally justified in seeing the Fine Tuning Argument as providing impressive confirmation of a fundamental belief shared by all the three great systems of revealed theistic religion - Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. For all three are agreed that we human beings are members of a special kind of creatures, made in the image of God and for a purpose intended by God.

In short, I recognize that developments in physics coming on the last twenty or thirty years can reasonably be seen as in some degree confirmatory of a previously faith-based belief in god, even though they still provide no sufficient reason for unbelievers to change their minds. They certainly have not persuaded me.
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Post by Sir Sirius »

I have heard of this guy, but calling him the "leading champion of atheism" is a bit too much. Besides the guy is 81, he might be suffering from top rot making him vulnerable to cockamamie ideas like ID.
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

I am going to Email fox and ask that they print a retraction
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Post by Col. Crackpot »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:I am going to Email fox and ask that they print a retraction
it wasn't just fox. My local paper printed it with AP credentials. So you'll have to send that letter to the Associated Press.
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Col. Crackpot wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:I am going to Email fox and ask that they print a retraction
it wasn't just fox. My local paper printed it with AP credentials. So you'll have to send that letter to the Associated Press.
Can do
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Post by kheegster »

An 81 year old man turning Deist (Deist, mind you, a far cry from being Xian) is no real big deal, in my book. But supporting ID is, particularly because that's a field he has no right commenting on.
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

SHit, the dates dont jive. This bit of Fox news crap is mre recent than the 2001 letter on Secular web.
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

here it is

My Name is Benjamin Allen, and I am an 18 year old biology freshman at
Arizona State University writing to you out of Mesa Arizona. Having
recently read your Thursday, December 09, 2004 online article entitled
"Leading Atheist Philosopher Concludes God's Real" I did a little bit
of research on my own, and found that the previously mentioned article
was false. I base this on a piece by Anthony Flew, the atheist in
question, directly responding to the rumor that he had converted to
theism.

The article can be found here http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=369

"Antony Flew Considers God...Sort Of
by Richard Carrier

Antony Flew is considering the possibility that there might be a God.
Sort of. Flew is one of the most renowned atheists of the 20th
century, even making the shortlist of "Contemporary Atheists" at
About.com. So if he has changed his mind to any degree, whatever you
may think of his reasons, the event itself is certainly newsworthy.
After hearing of this, I contacted Antony directly to discuss it, and
I thought it fitting to cut short any excessive speculation or
exaggeration by writing a brief report on, well, what's going on.

Once upon a time, a rumor hit the Internet that Flew had converted to
Christianity. The myth appeared in 2001 and popped up again in 2003.
On each occasion, Flew refuted the claim personally, standing by his
response to its first occasion with his own reply for publication at
the Secular Web (Antony Flew, "Sorry to Disappoint, but I'm Still an
Atheist!" 2001). So I was quite skeptical the third time around. But
this time, things have indeed changed somewhat from where Flew stood
in his 2001 article. Antony and I exchanged letters on the issue
recently, and what I report here about his current views comes from
him directly.

The news of his "conversion" this time came from a number of avenues,
but the three I have good information on are an interview with Gary
Habermas soon to be published by Philosophia Christi in which Flew
appears to depart from his past views about God, a letter Flew wrote
to a popular philosophy journal expressing doubts about the ability of
science to explain the origin of life ("On Darwinism and Theology,"
Philosophy Now 47, August/September 2004, p. 22; cf. also Flew's
Review of Roy Varghese's The Wonder of the World), and, just recently
on national TV (the October 9 episode of "Faith Under Fire"), J. P.
Moreland used Flew's "conversion" as an argument for supernaturalism.

The fact of the matter is: Flew hasn't really decided what to believe.
He affirms that he is not a Christian--he is still quite certain that
the Gods of Christianity or Islam do not exist, that there is no
revealed religion, and definitely no afterlife of any kind (he stands
by everything he argued in his 2001 book Merely Mortal: Can You
Survive Your Own Death?). But he is increasingly persuaded that some
sort of Deity brought about this universe, though it does not
intervene in human affairs, nor does it provide any postmortem
salvation. He says he has in mind something like the God of Aristotle,
a distant, impersonal "prime mover." It might not even be conscious,
but a mere force. In formal terms, he regards the existence of this
minimal God as a hypothesis that, at present, is perhaps the best
explanation for why a universe exists that can produce complex life.
But he is still unsure. In fact, he asked that I not directly quote
him yet, until he finally composes his new introduction to a final
edition of his book God and Philosophy, due out next year. He hasn't
completed it yet, precisely because he is still examining the evidence
and thinking things over. Anything he says now, could change tomorrow.

I also heard a rumor that Flew claimed in a private letter that the
kalam cosmological argument proved the existence of God (see relevant
entries in Cosmological Arguments). But he assures me that is not what
he believes. He said that, at best, the kalam is an argument for a
first cause in the Aristotelian sense, and nothing more--and he
maintains that, kalam or not, it is still not logically necessary that
the universe had a cause at all, much less a "personal" cause. Flew's
tentative, mechanistic Deism is not based on any logical proofs, but
solely on physical, scientific evidence, or the lack thereof, and is
therefore subject to change with more information--and he confesses he
has not been able to keep up with the relevant literature in science
and theology, which means we should no longer treat him as an expert
on this subject (as Moreland apparently did).

Once Flew gives me permission to quote him I will expand this article
with more information about his views and the reasons for them. That
will have to wait for when Flew himself has finally mulled things over
and come to something like a stable decision about what he thinks is
most probable, and that may not happen until the release of his 2005
edition of God and Philosophy. For now, I think his view can best be
described as questioning, rather than committed. And there is much to
criticize in his rationale even for considering Aristotelian Deism. He
is most impressed, he says, by Gerald Schroeder's book The Hidden Face
of God: How Science Reveals the Ultimate Truth (2001), but Schroeder
(a Jewish theologian and physicist) has been heavily criticized for
"fudging" the facts to fit his argument--see Mark Perakh, "Not a Very
Big Bang about Genesis" (1999); and my own discussion in "Are the Odds
Against the Origin of Life Too Great to Accept?" (2000), as well as my
peer-reviewed article "The Argument from Biogenesis," soon to appear
in Biology & Philosophy. Flew points out that he has not yet had time
to examine any of the critiques of Schroeder. Nor has he examined any
of the literature of the past five or ten years on the science of
life's origin, which has more than answered his call for "constructing
a naturalistic theory" of the origin of life. This is not to say any
particular theory has been proven--rather, there are many viable
theories fitting all the available evidence that have yet to be
refuted, so Flew cannot maintain (as in his letter to Philosophy Now)
that it is "inordinately difficult even to begin to think about" such
theories. I have pointed all this out to him, and he is thinking it
over.

For now, the story of Antony Flew's change of mind should not be
exaggerated. We should wait for him to complete his investigation of
the matter and declare a more definite conclusion, before claiming he
has "converted," much less to any particular religious view.

Update (December 2004)

Flew has now given me permission to quote him directly. I asked him
point blank what he would mean if he ever asserted that "probably God
exists," to which he responded (in a letter in his own hand, dated 19
October 2004):

'I do not think I will ever make that assertion, precisely because
any assertion which I am prepared to make about God would not be about
a God in that sense ... I think we need here a fundamental distinction
between the God of Aristotle or Spinoza and the Gods of the Christian
and the Islamic Revelations.'

Rather, he would only have in mind "the non-interfering God of the
people called Deists--such as Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin."
Indeed, he remains adamant that "theological propositions can neither
be verified nor falsified by experience," exactly as he argued in
"Theology and Falsification." Regarding J. P. Moreland using Flew in
support of Moreland's own belief in the supernatural, Flew says "my
God is not his. His is Swinburne's. Mine is emphatically not good (or
evil) or interested in human conduct" and does not perform miracles of
any kind. Furthermore, Flew took great care to emphasize repeatedly to
me that:

'My one and only piece of relevant evidence [for an Aristotelian
God] is the apparent impossibility of providing a naturalistic theory
of the origin from DNA of the first reproducing species ... [In fact]
the only reason which I have for beginning to think of believing in a
First Cause god is the impossibility of providing a naturalistic
account of the origin of the first reproducing organisms.'

He cites, in fact, the improbability arguments of Schroeder, which I
have refuted online, and the entire argument to the impossibility of
natural biogenesis I have refuted in a forthcoming article in Biology
& Philosophy.

So what of the claim that Flew was persuaded by the Kalam Cosmological
Argument? Flew "cannot recall" writing any letter to Geivett claiming
"the kalam cosmological argument is a sound argument" for God but he
confesses his memory fails him often now so he can't be sure.
Nevertheless, I specifically asked what Antony thought of the Kalam,
to which he answered:

'If and insofar as it is supposed to prove the existence of a
First Cause of the Big Bang, I have no objection, but this is not at
all the same as a proof of the existence of a spirit and all the rest
of Richard Swinburne's definition of 'God' which is presently accepted
as standard throughout the English speaking and philosophical world.'

Also, regarding another rumor that Flew has been attending Quaker
meetings, Antony says "I have, I think, attended Quaker meetings on at
least 3 or 4 occasions, and one was at the wedding of a cousin," and
thus hardly a religious statement on his part but a family affair.
Nevertheless, for him and his family generally, he says "I think the
main attraction" of Quakerism has been "the lack of doctrines." On the
whole God thing, though, Flew is still examining the articles I sent
him, so he may have more to say in the future."

In light of this, I ask that you publish a retraction. A duplicate of
this letter will be sent to the Associated Press, asking them to
publish a retraction as well. However, if they fail to do so, it
would be in your best interests to do so, as failure to publish a
retraction to such obviously false information could be construed by
those with legal standing to file suit, as libel. The simple fact is,
the man is not sure whether he accepts the possibility of a
mechanistic deity, and does not have the updated data on biology and
biochemestry that even I have access to.. He is merely considering
the possibility, and the spin, and yes it was spin, that the press
placed on this is unacceptable from an ethical standpoint.

Please, print a retraction or at least a clarification.

Sincerely,
Benjamin Allen
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Post by Joe »

Seems to me what we have is basically a rehash of the classic "First Cause" argument.
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Post by sketerpot »

Since some people have been wondering what Rapture Ready thinks about this, here is a link: +http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=178617

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Post by xcr »

Well... At least they don’t want him condemned to hell for all eternity.

A news agency misconstruing subtle distinctions is hardly surprising.
I suspect few reporters have much knowledge of scientific or philosophical areas. And increasingly few seem to have much concern with investigative journalism either. Much better to re-enforce the political views of the viewers than to challenge them- they can make more money, it seems. :roll:
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Post by Symmetry »

Athiesm, Deism, as long as he doesn't fall into Theism I can't say that I really care. I mean, when was the last time a Deist threatened anyone with fire and brimstone?
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Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba »

Why are we afraid of RR counter-invading already? First, we can make sure to look inconspicuous while undermining their arguments through saying things like, "I'm arguing about religion with an atheist and I cannot stump his argumentsa alone, plz help, here they are: Blah blah blah..."

Besides, even if they do counter-invade, we have admins and mods on our side, plus we can check to see if they're from RR before we activate their accounts.
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Post by Mitth`raw`nuruodo »

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:*snip*
We only have so many admins, and it's a pain in the ass to check things like that, I imagine. *shrugs*

There's no reason to lead them here, so let's just not do it.
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Post by Justforfun000 »

My one and only piece of relevant evidence [for an Aristotelian
God] is the apparent impossibility of providing a naturalistic theory
of the origin from DNA of the first reproducing species ... [In fact]
the only reason which I have for beginning to think of believing in a
First Cause god is the impossibility of providing a naturalistic
account of the origin of the first reproducing organisms.'
So...What's he trying to get at here? Is he simply saying the odds of a naturally occuring life form out of chaos is too staggering to be believed?

How would you know the odds anyway? Besides, if it happened, it happened. It doesn't matter what the odds. The fact remains that it was possible...
You have to realize that most Christian "moral values" behaviour is not really about "protecting" anyone; it's about their desire to send a continual stream of messages of condemnation towards people whose existence offends them. - Darth Wong alias Mike Wong

"There is nothing wrong with being ignorant. However, there is something very wrong with not choosing to exchange ignorance for knowledge when the opportunity presents itself."
HemlockGrey
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Post by HemlockGrey »

And, to be frank, I would pay money to see a Wong-Durandal tag-team take on the entirety of RR.
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"If more cars are inevitable, must there not be roads for them to run on?"
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