Terrorists to use "Lasers". No word on moonbase, s

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Terrorists to use "Lasers". No word on moonbase, s

Post by SirNitram »

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WASHINGTON (AP) -- Terrorists may seek to down aircraft by shining powerful lasers into cockpits to blind pilots during landing approaches, U.S. officials warned in a bulletin distributed nationwide.

The memo, sent by the FBI and the Homeland Security Department, says there is evidence that terrorists have explored using lasers as weapons.

There is no specific intelligence indicating al Qaeda or other groups might use lasers in the United States, they added.

"Although lasers are not proven methods of attack like improvised explosive devices and hijackings, terrorist groups overseas have expressed interest in using these devices against human sight," the memo said.

"In certain circumstances, if laser weapons adversely affect the eyesight of both pilot and co-pilot during a non-instrument approach, there is a risk of airliner crash," the agencies said.

In September a pilot for Delta Air Lines reported an eye injury from a laser beam shone into the cockpit during a landing approach in Salt Lake City, Utah. The incident occurred about 5 miles (9 kilometers) from the airport. The plane landed safely.

FBI and other federal officials are investigating. It is not clear if a crime was committed or if the laser was directed into the cockpit by accident.

Steve Luckey, a retired airline pilot who is chairman of the Air Line Pilots Association's national security committee, said pilots are concerned about a recent increase in laser incidents, but do not know what to make of them. He said he has learned of two or three cases in the past 90 days.

"The most recent incidents appear to be aimed at pilots in the vicinity of airports," Luckey said. "A few seem to be intentional, and we're wondering why and what's going on."

Lasers can cause temporary blindness and severely damage the eye by burning the retina. The bulletin notes they are "relatively inexpensive, portable, easy to conceal and readily available on the open market."

Lasers are commonly used in a number of industries and are featured in outdoor light shows. A variety of more powerful military-grade lasers are produced around the world, but there is no evidence that terrorist groups have managed to obtain one, according to federal officials.

The bulletin was sent late last month to law enforcement officials and key government agencies and industries. A copy was obtained Thursday by The Associated Press.
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Post by Faram »

Arrest Tom Clancy!

First he predicted the 11/9 attack and now the terrorist want to use the way he downed thos Japaneese AWACS!

Tom writes terrorist manuals!

Off with his head!
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Post by Tom_Aurum »

FEAR!!! FEAR!!!! Everyone feel afraid so that government can do whatever the hell it wants to! FEAR!!!! Come on, lasers??? What next, the puppy someone brings on to keep them company is really a terrorist??
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Post by Durandal »

All I want are terrorists with freakin' laser beams attached to their heads!
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Post by Howedar »

That would be fantastically difficult to pull off. Not only would your aim need to be very consistent and accurate, but you'd need to have a very good point to lase from in the first place.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

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(Rooters) 11 December, 2004 —Department of Homeland
Paranoia officials released this photo of a meeting of leading
terrorists suspected as the most likley group attempting to
acquire laser weapons to shoot down commercial aircraft. The
identites of the conspirators and the location of this top-secret
terrorism planning session have been withheld for security
purposes.
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Post by aerius »

Howedar wrote:That would be fantastically difficult to pull off. Not only would your aim need to be very consistent and accurate, but you'd need to have a very good point to lase from in the first place.
No kidding. A laser spot from a portable laser at a distance of a mile is roughly a foot in diameter. So somehow the guy has to point a 1' diameter spot at a target that's about the same size (the pilot's head) in a plane that's moving at 150-200mph, from at least a mile away unless it's some dinky-ass airport.

Pilots have a better chance of being accidentally blinded by searchlight displays than by "terrorists" with fucking laser pointers.
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Post by Zac Naloen »

aerius wrote: Pilots have a better chance of being accidentally blinded by searchlight displays than by "terrorists" with fucking laser pointers.
... attached to their heads??


Okay... yeh its already been done. *skulks away petulantly*
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Post by Howedar »

aerius wrote:
Howedar wrote:That would be fantastically difficult to pull off. Not only would your aim need to be very consistent and accurate, but you'd need to have a very good point to lase from in the first place.
No kidding. A laser spot from a portable laser at a distance of a mile is roughly a foot in diameter. So somehow the guy has to point a 1' diameter spot at a target that's about the same size (the pilot's head) in a plane that's moving at 150-200mph, from at least a mile away unless it's some dinky-ass airport.

Pilots have a better chance of being accidentally blinded by searchlight displays than by "terrorists" with fucking laser pointers.
Moreover considering how high a pich the aircraft is at, hitting the pilot's head in the first place either needs to be done from a high place or from very far away. Both complicate things.
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Post by Howedar »

Er, how high a pitch.
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Post by Mayabird »

I get the idea that "terrorists exploring the idea of using lasers as a weapon to blind pilots" means the following happened:

Lackey: "Hey, I got an idea! How about we shine laser pointers at pilots to blind them while they try to land and crash them! That'll put the fear of Allah in them!"

Higher up: "That's possibly the stupidest idea I've ever heard. Allah needs to beat some sense into you."
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Post by RadiO »

IIRC modern AA laser dazzlers emit a rapid, continually shifting series of pulses in the general direction of the target in the hope that at least one pulse will hit home. They require a stabilised, powered mount, computer control, and sensors - something of a step up from your average laser pointer.
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Post by Aaron »

There was a case several years ago of a Canadian Forces officer who was blinded by a laser, he was in a Sea King helicopter that was investigating a Russian "fishing trawler".

Blinding a comercial airline might be hard for reasons already pointed out. But it might not be as difficult to blind a chopper pilot.
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Post by RadiO »

I think I remember that incident. Am i right in thinking the USCG also had something similar happen to a Dolphin crew while overflying a Russian vessel? Personally, I hope the new generation of protective eyewear will nip the trend towards dazzling lasers in the bud, before we have a major war with these things being used.
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Post by Aaron »

RadiO wrote:I think I remember that incident. Am i right in thinking the USCG also had something similar happen to a Dolphin crew while overflying a Russian vessel? Personally, I hope the new generation of protective eyewear will nip the trend towards dazzling lasers in the bud, before we have a major war with these things being used.
I seem to remember something along those lines happening as well. I know the new generation of eyewear being procured for the CF is supposed to protect against this kind of weapon. I would assume that the US is doing something similar.

I believe that the use of lazer dazzlers is against the Geneva Convention. Or so I was told when we were discussing using lazer pointers to blind the thermal sights on the TUA (TOW Under Armor) vehicle used by the CF.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

No version of the Geneva Convention bans laser-blinding weapons. However the Convention on Conventional Weapons does have a protocol, which bans permanent laser blinding weapons. Plenty of nations have signed that treaty, not so many have ratified it. Laser dazzlers which don't cause permanent damage aren't illegal.

Goggles and optics coatings which will shield against a blinding laser exist and are quite common. However while they can prevent permanent damage, they aren't going to keep you from being blinded at least briefly.
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Post by Broomstick »

aerius wrote:
Howedar wrote:That would be fantastically difficult to pull off. Not only would your aim need to be very consistent and accurate, but you'd need to have a very good point to lase from in the first place.
No kidding. A laser spot from a portable laser at a distance of a mile is roughly a foot in diameter. So somehow the guy has to point a 1' diameter spot at a target that's about the same size (the pilot's head) in a plane that's moving at 150-200mph, from at least a mile away unless it's some dinky-ass airport.

Pilots have a better chance of being accidentally blinded by searchlight displays than by "terrorists" with fucking laser pointers.
Pilots actually have been dazzled by searchlights and use of lasers for entertainment purposes. It's rare, though.

The possible military incidents have already been noted.

Just for the record - a big airliner on final approach is between 140-160 mph according to my sources on another board (which include professional airline pilots). Even five miles out the planes aren't that high - in fact, when flying a good 10-15 miles sound of Midway (which is in no way a "dinky-ass airport") I have to stay under 3000 feet in altitude. That close to O'Hare, height restrictions for private planes not going into the airport are in a similar range of 2500-3000 feet (unless you want to go up to 10,000 feet to go over the airspace). Underneath the flight paths you have homes, apartment buildings, businesses, forest preserves and parks... Position yourself under such a flight path you have less than a mile vertical distance between you and the airplane. With the typical spacing of such airplanes - about 90 seconds apart for peak O'Hare traffic - you'd have plenty of opportunities to practice your aim on planes following the same path prior to making an actual attempt. Park yourself on top of a building or in the middle of a forest thicket you could have a sizable set up that remains concealed.

So... is it possible? Actually... yes. It is possible at least in theory to pull this off. Is it likely? Um... probably not. Shoulder-launched missles with a heat-directed guidance system take a lot less finesse to use and don't require a portable power pack of the sort a big industrial or medical laser would require.

When it comes to commerical airliners you'd also have to blind BOTH pilots at the same time to cause a crash - if you get one the other can take over and pull up, diverting to another airport for a safe landing. So as far as causing death and destruction it's not very likely. It COULD cause fear, which may be a useful tactic for some purposes.

Then again, I'm sure back in, say, 2000 it seemed unlikely that someone would use a boxcutter to kill several thousand people.
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Post by aerius »

Broomstick wrote:Pilots actually have been dazzled by searchlights and use of lasers for entertainment purposes. It's rare, though.
Yep, which is why I mentioned the things. It's more of problem in cities with skyscrapers where they stick the big searchlights up top, which gives them a better angle to blind planes from. I remember when they had a laser & searchlight display on the CN Tower which is only about a couple miles away from our island airport, wonder how well that went over with the guys flying into the airport?
So... is it possible? Actually... yes. It is possible at least in theory to pull this off. Is it likely? Um... probably not. Shoulder-launched missles with a heat-directed guidance system take a lot less finesse to use and don't require a portable power pack of the sort a big industrial or medical laser would require.
Actually you wouldn't need an industrial of medical laser to do the trick, there are now handheld laser pointers that can do this from about a mile away, runs on AA or lithium batteries. Commonly available on ebay too, but you're still gonna need really steady hands and a lot of luck to blind the pilot.

Funny thing, there's a review site somewhere (ledmuseum.org I think) where they tell you not to point the laser pointers at planes & helicopters, so my guess is some dork is being an ass and deliberately lighting up aircraft after reading that warning.
Then again, I'm sure back in, say, 2000 it seemed unlikely that someone would use a boxcutter to kill several thousand people.
Well, some people back then were saying something like that was bound to happen, but everyone wrote them off as paranoid nutjobs. I can see laser flashing being a nuisance for aircraft pilots, but I doubt it could be a serious safety threat.
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Post by Wicked Pilot »

Even if you could manage to blind the flight crew, they'll just fly a coupled approach down the ILS. By the time they're down to mins they'll have easily passed whoever's doing the shooting.
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Post by GrandMasterTerwynn »

As others have said, if you're on approach to land at an airport, you're generally at a pretty low altitude, and you're moving on a more-or-less straight line down a limited number of predictable paths.

Of course, in order effectively dazzle the pilot of an aircraft, you have to have an absolutely steady hand, or somehow mount your laser on something that can either be braced against your shoulder like a rifle. A scope might give you a better idea of how your aim is, at least if you pick your spot directly in the airplane's path. It would help if you and a few of your terrorist buddies got together with your ultra-bright green-light laser pointers (or other suitable and easily procured lasers) and pointed them at the same aircraft at the same time, improving your odds of actually hitting something important.

Of course, if you've got Achmed the Terrorist and ten of his buddies hanging around an airport and, all rather intent on pointing their lasers at landing airplanes, they're going to be noticed, especially acting so suspiciously. So actually pulling off something like this would be rather difficult.
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Post by Dennis Toy »

Terrorist using lasers? now where did i hear this....oh COBRA that 1980's terrorist gang who used to fight that 1980s military outfit... Remember them they used to have laser guns but couldn't shoot straight.
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Post by Coalition »

Arrest Tom Clancy!

First he predicted the 11/9 attack and now the terrorist want to use the way he downed thos Japaneese AWACS!

Tom writes terrorist manuals!
I remember that book. Two guys pretended to be a reporter crew in Japan, when the quiet war was going on. They used a powerful camera flash, and a telescope zoom lens to aim it properly. The flash was attached to a zoom lens so it would get the pilot, without a massive strobe of light. Almost a low-focus laser.

Then again, the plane was landing in the middle of a city, and most of the damage was caused by the plane clipping the buildings on either side that set it off.

Also, to hide the potential, Boeing sent off a memo about the autoland system in their newer planes (the same type as used for the Japanese AWACs), so the Japanese accident technicians looked at that first.

So it worked, in a specific environment.

The 2nd AWACs though, was taken down by a helicopter, as they could not count on the flash working a second time.

Missile would be easier. Put a few dozen in oil drums, ship them over, and unpack them near the airport. During a busy approach, launch away. When police arrive to investigate (and shoot to kill), use the Swordfish body packs, with ball bearings and high explosive.

Hmm, I better shut up.
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Post by Broomstick »

Here's a little something from the US Department of Defense regarding laser injuries suffered by an American aboard a Canadian helicoptor:
http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/199 ... 39-97.html The incident occurred in 1997. So yes, you CAN use a laser to cause injuries to someone in an aircraft - keep in mind the boat in question was at sea, so not perfectly stationary, and the helicoptor wasn't either yet someone still managed to cause harm.
Wicked Pilot wrote:Even if you could manage to blind the flight crew, they'll just fly a coupled approach down the ILS. By the time they're down to mins they'll have easily passed whoever's doing the shooting.
Hmm... that assumes a working ILS and, correct me if I'm wrong, a Cat III approach to get it down to the runway safely? Otherwise, if they're blind, how the heck will they know when they're at minimums? Short of a Cat III, someone with vision has to be in the cockpit in order to manage the last 50 feet or so, right?

Come to think of it, if you cut power to the ILS you'll force the pilots to look outside the cockpit, making them more vulnerable to this sort of attack --

Ya know, maybe I'll shut up, too.
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Post by Aaron »

Coalition wrote: When police arrive to investigate (and shoot to kill), use the Swordfish body packs, with ball bearings and high explosive.

Hmm, I better shut up.
You do understand that the Swordfish scene was just Hollywood wanking right?
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