Secessionist wanking...

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Secessionist wanking...

Post by Rogue 9 »

This is simply hilarious. :lol:
Today, class, we will continue our discussion of the decline and fall of the United States in the first quarter of the 21st century. Yesterday we discussed military adventurism and how the Imperialist Wars severely weakened the United States. Tomorrow we will discuss the economics of the fall. Today we will discuss my favorite aspect, the fractures in the political landscape.

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Just as nobody expected the Soviet Union to collapse back in 1980, nobody in 2004 expected the disintegration of the United States after the reelection of George W. Bush. In fact, the country did hold together for four more years after that, although the divide between the so-called "Red" and "Blue" states had been deepening. Legal scholars were researching, for the first time in a century and a half, the subject of secession, but nobody took the work as serious or threatening. Some libertarians expected that the Free State Movement in New Hampshire might result in secession, but they were beaten to it elsewhere.

Even those expecting secession expected only two countries to result. Instead two countries that existed before the wave of secession, the United States and Canada, resulted in the over nine countries we have today. It was unforeseeable.

As I said, the split had been deepening for decades. The Democratic Party committed political suicide in 2008 by nominating Senator Hillary Clinton for the presidency, thus assuring Republican victory, or so it seemed. The Republicans had no obvious candidates at first, but Vice President Richard Cheney eventually won the party's nomination. He tried to run on his war record, but his main strength was that he wasn’t Hillary. Senator Clinton ran on her intent to fix all problems with greater government.

Both sides were fearful of the victory of the other, but a week after the election was over the lawyers in Ohio finally awarded that state to Hillary after all votes cast on Diebold machines were disqualified.

While the case was referred to the Supreme Court, South Carolina, heavily insulted by the Clinton campaign as an example of the problems she was running to fix, was pushed to secede for the second time in United States history. To the surprise of all, they did vote to do so and started a cascade of secession in the other "red" states, dividing the remaining states into two separate geographic areas.

Both outgoing President Bush and incoming President Clinton vowed to hold the union together, but it was an empty threat on many levels; most U.S. troops were reluctant to fire on U.S. citizens, and most U.S. troops were needed to maintain the ongoing war in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, and Syria. There were no troops available to stop the secession. This did stop the wars in the Middle East. Some troops were brought home in an abortive attempt to hold the union together, but there weren’t enough troops for the job.

Bereft of the population of the southern states, the United States military was by far insufficient to attempt to force the union back together, much less maintain any foreign imperialistic ventures. Since most of the remaining military was overseas, including the Guard and the Reserves, by the time they could be recalled secession was a fait accompli.

At first the remaining United States tried to hold together as a single government, but the logistics and the politics of that proved to be difficult. Even though they both voted against Cheney, the two coasts were politically different in many ways, as well as the complication of geographic separation and a hostile country of the seceded states between them. It was decided within a couple of years that the two coasts should go their own ways, and despite a determined desire to oppose further secession, President Clinton bid farewell to the West Coast in 2010.

The most interesting ramification of this was that the secession in the United States gave new strength to the Quebecois separatist movement, causing their numbers to finally tip over 50%, and thus Quebec became an independent country, splitting Canada apart in a manner similar to their southern neighbor. For a while the provinces on both sides of Canada tried to hold together, but the secession movement had not run its course.

By 2012, the regional differences between the southern states and the plains states had grown too difficult to manage given the atmosphere of the times, and the western farming states broke away from the southern states. President Zell Miller tried to call up the military to keep them together, but was unable to. The seceded states had adopted the old Confederate constitution, edited to remove all references to slavery, and that document specifically recognized the right to secede.

In an attempt to mend the rifts that had divided both countries, constitutional conventions were called, some of them inviting all the former states, some inviting former provinces as well, and some of them simply regional. The broader the convention, the less success it had.

The remaining United States kept the name and original constitution. Eighteen states remained in the union, containing more former states than any other resulting group. Eventually the Eastern provinces of Canada joined, bringing the total up twenty-two. The Canadian provinces north and west of Quebec kept the Canadian constitution without any changes and the name Canada making it the geographically largest nation.

The larger problems occurred in the western states, because at this point Utah balked from participating any further. It had been Mormon doctrine that the United States was a blessed place, and the United States Constitution divinely inspired. Seeing the failure of the United States was a shock, and caused the Mormon Church to become separatist. Utah stood alone, not joining with any other states. Today its official name is The Republic of Utah, but some deride it as The Mormon Republic of Utah.

Oregon and Washington were initially part of the Pacific Coast, but found difficulties with California to be too great and thus Oregon and Washington formed Pacifica. It should be noted that absent the limitations of the eastern states, Pacifica has become the world’s leader in computer technology.

While California seemed about to split into two states, it remained together and California joined Nevada, Arizona, and New Mexico, forming the Desert Confederation and saving Utah from being surrounded by a single country. One would have thought that California, a former blue state, would not have gotten along with Nevada, Arizona, and New Mexico, former red states. Spared the influence of the New England liberals they found more in common with each other than formerly realized. In order to avoid the old Red-Blue problem, both the Republican and Democrat parties were abandoned. Anthony Gregory of the Libertarian Party beat Peter Camejo of the Green Party after Camejo’s initial lead in three rounds of Instant Runoff Voting and was instrumental in making the Desert Confederation successful.

The remaining continental states eventually formed Great Plains. Worried about being land-locked, they tried to woo Texas away from the Confederate States, but were unable to do so. However, they discovered that they could play their neighbors against each other for ease of export. Some worried that with their low population they were vulnerable, but the United States was watched carefully by the Confederate States and thus Great Plains remained safe while enjoying great relationships with Pacifica and the Desert Confederation. Indeed, they have more free trade than they did as part of the United States of America, and absent subsidies from Washington they have been able to focus on growing crops that actually produce a profit.

This left only the difficulties of Alaska, Hawaii, and the territories. Sitting back, watching the action, they took little part in it at first. At first, Alaska stuck with the red states and Hawaii with the blue states, and then when the situation got more chaotic they both adopted a "wait and see" attitude. As things finally settled down, Alaska joined Canada. Hawaii, Guam, Mariana, and Samoa formed the United Pacific States, which has started to absorb independent Polynesian island nations. Finally Puerto Rico and other United States holding in the Caribbean achieved full independence, thus finally settling the Puerto Rico statehood question for good.
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Post by Rogue 9 »

Nuts. Hit submit instead of preview.

Anywho, I like how his plains nation picks up the old Confederate constitution. :lol:
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Post by Petrosjko »

Bah. Texas learned its lesson last time. No way in hell would we hang around with those losers in their club. We'd be our own country again. :P

The part I find really amusing is the notion that Oklahoma would be so different than the old south as to secede along with the rest of the plains states.

That's just one of the many things I could nitpick about this bit of delusion.
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Post by Knife »

Blah. That is the lamest thing I've seen in a while.



Besides, Utah would be the nation of Zion.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by frigidmagi »

Speaking has an Oklahoman we don't generally see ourselves has having alot in common with the Deep South.
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Post by Petrosjko »

frigidmagi wrote:Speaking has an Oklahoman we don't generally see ourselves has having alot in common with the Deep South.
There are differences, granted, but I don't see such a great gulf that Oklahoma would split from this proto-Confederacy of theirs. IMO Oklahoma has more in common with Arkansas than Kansas.

No offense intended, mind you.
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Knife wrote:Blah. That is the lamest thing I've seen in a while.



Besides, Utah would be the nation of Zion.
Or Deseret. Seriously, this thing was written by a seventh-grader. Its got spelling and grammar errors, and is highly implausible in the absurd.
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Post by Wicked Pilot »

Petrosjko wrote:Bah. Texas learned its lesson last time. No way in hell would we hang around with those losers in their club. We'd be our own country again.
Seriousily. The South is already enough of a thrid world country with the North's money being poored into it. After a few years off the fix Texas may find better oppertunities going back to Mexico.
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Post by Rogue 9 »

I find it interesting that his nation with California, Nevada, New Mexico, and Arizona would eliminate the Democrats and Republicans and instead run Libertarians and Greens and -- this is the wrong part -- that the Libertarians would win out. California has more than enough voters to ramrod a Green candidate through, and with all this secession going on I see no reason why they'd tolerate a Libertarian.
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Post by Petrosjko »

Rogue 9 wrote:I find it interesting that his nation with California, Nevada, New Mexico, and Arizona would eliminate the Democrats and Republicans and instead run Libertarians and Greens and -- this is the wrong part -- that the Libertarians would win out. California has more than enough voters to ramrod a Green candidate through, and with all this secession going on I see no reason why they'd tolerate a Libertarian.
Heavily armed libertarians would seize the polls and insure that Mortimer Freestate, aka Grand Granola, aka Arnold Schwartzenegger, aka Michael Jackson, aka None of the Above wins with one hundred percent of the vote?
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Post by Knife »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:
Or Deseret. Seriously, this thing was written by a seventh-grader. Its got spelling and grammar errors, and is highly implausible in the absurd.
To be correct, Idaho and a large swath of Arizona would have to be grafted on to the new Republic of Zionist Deseret. A huge population of the mormons occupy Idaho and to a lesser, but more extremist, extent a group in Arizona.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by Petrosjko »

Knife wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:
Or Deseret. Seriously, this thing was written by a seventh-grader. Its got spelling and grammar errors, and is highly implausible in the absurd.
To be correct, Idaho and a large swath of Arizona would have to be grafted on to the new Republic of Zionist Deseret. A huge population of the mormons occupy Idaho and to a lesser, but more extremist, extent a group in Arizona.
Not to mention Wyoming and Nebraska, and to a lesser extent South Dakota. They've spread out fairly well.
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Post by Knife »

Petrosjko wrote:
Not to mention Wyoming and Nebraska, and to a lesser extent South Dakota. They've spread out fairly well.
Very true. All the more recruits to go to the Brigam Young Military Academy. :P
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by Joe »

Hah! I knew this was a lewrockwell.com essay before I even clicked the link.
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Post by frigidmagi »

There are differences, granted, but I don't see such a great gulf that Oklahoma would split from this proto-Confederacy of theirs. IMO Oklahoma has more in common with Arkansas than Kansas.
Expect we make all our jokes about Arkansas...
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Post by Petrosjko »

frigidmagi wrote:
There are differences, granted, but I don't see such a great gulf that Oklahoma would split from this proto-Confederacy of theirs. IMO Oklahoma has more in common with Arkansas than Kansas.
Expect we make all our jokes about Arkansas...
Hence why I threw in the 'no offense' bit. Poor Arkies, we all pick on 'em.

But it's so much fuuuuun.
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Post by Rogue 9 »

Joe wrote:Hah! I knew this was a lewrockwell.com essay before I even clicked the link.
How'd you figure that? I could just as easily have linked to this or something. :P Actually,historical documents are usually more my style.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

Jason Gonella must have composed that little screed of his one-handed.

I would not rule out the eventual breakup of the United States at some point in the future into probably two or three seperate countries on the North American continent simply because it is the eventual fate of large nations and empires to break apart when the disadvantages of union outweigh the advantages to a significant degree of imbalance. But at present the US is nowhere near that sort of crisis point.

The notion that it's going to happen simply because Hillary Clinton is elected president (what is it with rightwingers and their psychotic obsession with the Clintons) in 2008 —particularly triggered by South Carolina pulling out of the union over a "mortal insult"— is laughable in the extreme.

Seriously, this has "junior high-school essay" written all over it.
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Post by Glocksman »

You might see the US fracture, but it wouldn't be along the preexisting state lines. Instead you'd see a lot of Virginia/W.Virginia style breakups.

For example, southern Indiana and southern Illinois both have a lot in common politically and socially. Much more so than they have in common with the northern areas (Chicago and the Lake county area of Indiana) of the 2 states.

Outside of the urbanized coasts, California is more conservative than a lot of people realize. Look at the county election result maps and try to imagine the breakups along political lines.

The State of East California, anyone? :twisted:
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Post by Rogue 9 »

Glocksman wrote:You might see the US fracture, but it wouldn't be along the preexisting state lines. Instead you'd see a lot of Virginia/W.Virginia style breakups.

For example, southern Indiana and southern Illinois both have a lot in common politically and socially. Much more so than they have in common with the northern areas (Chicago and the Lake county area of Indiana) of the 2 states.

Outside of the urbanized coasts, California is more conservative than a lot of people realize. Look at the county election result maps and try to imagine the breakups along political lines.

The State of East California, anyone? :twisted:
But nobody could try to give that the 9th and 10th Amendment treatment; it's spelled out that it can't be done in Article 4, Section 3.
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

I've been to East California. It would be the most water-poor region in the US. Very easy to defend, though, there's only 4 mountain passes through.
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Post by Petrosjko »

Rogue 9 wrote:But nobody could try to give that the 9th and 10th Amendment treatment; it's spelled out that it can't be done in Article 4, Section 3.
Yeah, but if you're talking dissolution of the country, all bets are off.

I'd say that California would probably break along the lines of California (which would be the urbanized coastal portions of the state) vs. Jefferson, the northern and eastern parts of the state where the conservatives tend to live. If you travel through the mountains in that north you'll still see signs for Jefferson, the name for the state they proposed to break off from Cali back in the day.

(On a side note, that's a drive well worth making. Some of the most beautiful scenery in the country, and Mt. Shasta is a real sight to behold.)
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Post by Imperial Overlord »

Almost all my family is from California and my grandparents used to go up into that area as a where they had a kind of vacation cottage. It is beautiful.
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Post by frigidmagi »

By 2012, the regional differences between the southern states and the plains states had grown too difficult to manage given the atmosphere of the times, and the western farming states broke away from the southern states. President Zell Miller tried to call up the military to keep them together, but was unable to. The seceded states had adopted the old Confederate constitution, edited to remove all references to slavery, and that document specifically recognized the right to seced
Before I begin my assualt on this paragraph I would like to thank Rogue 9 for giving me the link that made this possible.

Let me begin with the preamble to the Constitution of the Confedration. In fact the first line...
We, the people of the Confederate States, each State acting in its sovereign and independent character, in order to form a permanent federal government
If you can leave at any time it's not very permanent... But maybe it's just me. But wait that's not all!
Article I, Section8: (15)To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the Confederate States, suppress insurrections, and repel invasions.
So you can supress insurrections and rebellion... Gee, I wonder... Naw I must be imagationing things.
Article I Sec. 10. (I) No State shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation; .
You mean the states can't legally enter another nation! Gasp and triple gasp, doesn't that mean...
Article I Section 10 (3)Nor shall any State keep troops or ships of war in time of peace, enter into any agreement or compact with another State, or with a foreign power, or engage in war, unless actually invaded,
You mean states can't go to war without permission either? Damn it doesn't sound like we're sovergin at all does it?
ARTICLE III Sec. 3. (I) Treason against the Confederate States shall consist only in levying war against.them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.
So basically, you could leave the US, but you can't leave here! Seeing has the departing states would be entering into another Confederation, clearly shown to be illegal said fictional president could most definitally use force against them. In fact he would be legally bound to. I therefore declare the author a twit who didn't even bother to read the Consititution that he wacks to and an idiot, by the offical Magi standards and practices.
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Post by Rogue 9 »

frigidmagi wrote:Before I begin my assualt on this paragraph I would like to thank Rogue 9 for giving me the link that made this possible.
Hey, no problem. When it comes to the Confederacy, I'm always on hand with the ammo box. :wink:
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