Emporer Palpatine was a good guy:

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-12-07 10:15pm

Fools, everyone knows his real full name is Fauntleroy Palpatine...

UCBooties · Post by **UCBooties** » 2004-12-07 11:13pm

Um, thank you for just blithly brushing off my points. Now how 'bout you actualy point out what I'm wrong about? Also, are you objecting to the core of my reasoning, or my choice of examples?

Serapindal · Post by **Serapindal** » 2004-12-11 11:52pm

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/P ... 8ipzbt.asp

Read that. IT shows how the empire is good!

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-12-12 01:08am

How about you just quote us the good parts.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2004-12-12 01:12am

"Palpatine believes that the political order must be manipulated to produce peace and stability. When he mutters, "There is no civility, there is only politics," we see that at heart, he's an esoteric Straussian.

Make no mistake, as emperor, Palpatine is a dictator--but a relatively benign one, like Pinochet. It's a dictatorship people can do business with. They collect taxes and patrol the skies. They try to stop organized crime (in the form of the smuggling rings run by the Hutts). The Empire has virtually no effect on the daily life of the average, law-abiding citizen.

Also, unlike the divine-right Jedi, the Empire is a meritocracy. The Empire runs academies throughout the galaxy (Han Solo begins his career at an Imperial academy), and those who show promise are promoted, often rapidly. In "The Empire Strikes Back" Captain Piett is quickly promoted to admiral when his predecessor "falls down on the job."

And while it's a small point, the Empire's manners and decorum speak well of it. When Darth Vader is forced to employ bounty hunters to track down Han Solo, he refuses to address them by name. Even Boba Fett, the greatest of all trackers, is referred to icily as "bounty hunter." And yet Fett understands the protocol. When he captures Solo, he calls him "Captain Solo." (Whether this is in deference to Han's former rank in the Imperial starfleet, or simply because Han owns and pilots his own ship, we don't know. I suspect it's the former.)

But the most compelling evidence that the Empire isn't evil comes in "The Empire Strikes Back" when Darth Vader is battling Luke Skywalker. After an exhausting fight, Vader is poised to finish Luke off, but he stays his hand. He tries to convert Luke to the Dark Side with this simple plea: "There is no escape. Don't make me destroy you. . . . Join me, and I will complete your training. With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy." It is here we find the real controlling impulse for the Dark Side and the Empire. The Empire doesn't want slaves or destruction or "evil." It wants order. "

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2004-12-12 01:21am

Uh, Talen, you didn't actually mention any good acts. You just mentioned things they did that aren't evil. And the meritocracy point is wrong. No women and non-humans means the power structure is definitely not a meritocracy.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2004-12-12 01:29am

for myself, I dont argue that the empire is perfect - I just state its better then everything else we've seen on screen.

let serapindal defend his article.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-12-12 02:42am

Enforcer Talen wrote:"Palpatine believes that the political order must be manipulated to produce peace and stability. When he mutters, "There is no civility, there is only politics," we see that at heart, he's an esoteric Straussian.

No, we see that he's trying to manipulate Amidala into not trusting the Senate and taking matters into her own hands. It worked beautifully.

Make no mistake, as emperor, Palpatine is a dictator--but a relatively benign one, like Pinochet.

Who cackles with sadistic pleasure while electrocuting people and who feeds his top scientist to piranha beetles for screwing up and then clones him to kill again. Benign. Right.

It's a dictatorship people can do business with.

As long as they aren't female or alien.

They collect taxes and patrol the skies.

So can a republic, and the republic has the added bonus of generally not conducting summary execution.

They try to stop organized crime (in the form of the smuggling rings run by the Hutts).

*cough*Black Sun*cough*

The Empire has virtually no effect on the daily life of the average, law-abiding citizen.

The Invisible Sector. The citizens of Alderaan. The citizens of Caamas. The citizens of Raaltiir, Toprawa, wherever Kyp Durron grew up, Bespin, and a thousand other worlds.

Also, unlike the divine-right Jedi, the Empire is a meritocracy.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

The Empire runs academies throughout the galaxy (Han Solo begins his career at an Imperial academy), and those who show promise are promoted, often rapidly. In "The Empire Strikes Back" Captain Piett is quickly promoted to admiral when his predecessor "falls down on the job."

Because he was commanding officer of the Executor and the nearest officer at hand to put next in line for the chopping block.

And while it's a small point, the Empire's manners and decorum speak well of it. When Darth Vader is forced to employ bounty hunters to track down Han Solo, he refuses to address them by name. Even Boba Fett, the greatest of all trackers, is referred to icily as "bounty hunter." And yet Fett understands the protocol. When he captures Solo, he calls him "Captain Solo." (Whether this is in deference to Han's former rank in the Imperial starfleet, or simply because Han owns and pilots his own ship, we don't know. I suspect it's the former.)

Han never made captain in the Imperial forces. He was dishonorably discharged as a lieutenant, IIRC.

But the most compelling evidence that the Empire isn't evil comes in "The Empire Strikes Back" when Darth Vader is battling Luke Skywalker. After an exhausting fight, Vader is poised to finish Luke off, but he stays his hand. He tries to convert Luke to the Dark Side with this simple plea: "There is no escape. Don't make me destroy you. . . . Join me, and I will complete your training. With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy." It is here we find the real controlling impulse for the Dark Side and the Empire. The Empire doesn't want slaves or destruction or "evil." It wants order. "

So the lower ranking Sith Lord can plot to gain a new apprentice and backstab his master, just like all the others before. Color me unimpressed. When Vader and the Emperor spoke of "order" they spoke of achieving it through main force and terror. Order is not the paramount good.

Lord Darkblade · Post by **Lord Darkblade** » 2004-12-12 10:15am

The empire however was pretty stable, and most people living under it barely noticed. The Empire took slaves, but they did not annihalate Mon Calamari or any of the other alien only worlds. Instead the lived separately. Ok its not really PC or fair however from a certain point of view it was fair and balanced as people were promoted to fill the posts they were qualified for, the imperial acadamies are said to produce great graduates and TIE pilots are said to be highly trained and motivated.

It may not be perfect but its better than chaos or the republic (trade federations attacking people ?? wait its like the RIAA and the MPAA.)

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-12-12 01:03pm

I'm not a fan of the RIAA and MPAA, but I'd say they're a little bit better than fucking slavery.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-12-12 01:31pm

Serapindal wrote:http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/P ... 8ipzbt.asp

Read that. IT shows how the empire is good!

Definatley a good read. Only the Weekly Standard could bring us such brilliance! ;P

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-12-12 01:34pm

Just goes to show you the neocons are wrong - about everything.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-12-12 01:41pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:"Palpatine believes that the political order must be manipulated to produce peace and stability. When he mutters, "There is no civility, there is only politics," we see that at heart, he's an esoteric Straussian.

Make no mistake, as emperor, Palpatine is a dictator--but a relatively benign one, like Pinochet. It's a dictatorship people can do business with. They collect taxes and patrol the skies. They try to stop organized crime (in the form of the smuggling rings run by the Hutts). The Empire has virtually no effect on the daily life of the average, law-abiding citizen.

Unless you happen to be related to someone possessing something the Empire wants, or once sold something the Empire wants, or someone who lives on the same planet as someone who may or may not be a traitor to the Empire, or if you're a Wookiee, etc.

Besides, they've already started to nationalize commerce in the central systems! (wonder what the Weeky Standard writer thinks of that one)

Also, unlike the divine-right Jedi, the Empire is a meritocracy. The Empire runs academies throughout the galaxy (Han Solo begins his career at an Imperial academy), and those who show promise are promoted, often rapidly. In "The Empire Strikes Back" Captain Piett is quickly promoted to admiral when his predecessor "falls down on the job."

Divine-right Jedi? I hope this isn't a David-Brin-esque swipe at the Jedi being god-like rulers. Since recall that they served the state. Palpatine is the "divine right" ruler, since he's a Dark Lord of the Sith! The Empire is ruled by Force Users, whereas the Republic was ruled by the Senate.

And while it's a small point, the Empire's manners and decorum speak well of it. When Darth Vader is forced to employ bounty hunters to track down Han Solo, he refuses to address them by name. Even Boba Fett, the greatest of all trackers, is referred to icily as "bounty hunter." And yet Fett understands the protocol. When he captures Solo, he calls him "Captain Solo." (Whether this is in deference to Han's former rank in the Imperial starfleet, or simply because Han owns and pilots his own ship, we don't know. I suspect it's the former.)

Han was a Captain in the Imperial Starfleet? How long has he been out of it? Why should Fett care about his former rank? Fett isn't an Imperial official either, so not sure what point that makes. Is having good manners a sign of non-evilness?

We get an Imperial officer slandering bounty hunters inches away from said bounty hunters (rather tactless!), refering to Wookiees as "things" and then we have the Emperor himself who could use a good plastic surgeon and orthodontist. Not to mention the fact that the Empire tortures people (without asking them any questions), harasses legitimate businessmen while repeatedly breaking faith with them, and executes their own officers for mistakes that may not even have been their fault.

But the most compelling evidence that the Empire isn't evil comes in "The Empire Strikes Back" when Darth Vader is battling Luke Skywalker. After an exhausting fight, Vader is poised to finish Luke off, but he stays his hand. He tries to convert Luke to the Dark Side with this simple plea: "There is no escape. Don't make me destroy you. . . . Join me, and I will complete your training. With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy." It is here we find the real controlling impulse for the Dark Side and the Empire. The Empire doesn't want slaves or destruction or "evil." It wants order. "

So propaganda spouted by a Dark Lord of the Sith in order to convert his opponent over to his side is proof that the Empire isn't evil? Puh-leez!

It could just as easily be crap, or even what Vader planned/wanted to do if he defeated the Emperor, not what the Empire was all about. Anyway, I'm sure Hitler gave some positive sounding speeches as well, that alone doesn't prove he's a good guy.

Vader planned to convert Luke from the beginning. Witness his discussion with the Emperor earlier in the film, and the opening crawl. His striking off Luke's hand was in retaliation for Luke wounding his shoulder (note the anger with which he responds). Then the line "Don't make me destroy you..." Clearly Vader was toying with Luke. Killing Luke (if indeed Vader could do it) was only a last resort, if Luke could not be turned.

And speaking of the Weekly Standard Article, what is with this notion that the Hutts are cracked down upon during the time of the Empire?

The Special Edition shows Jabba wandering around Tatooine (in the same city as the stormtroopers) with just a small number of thugs carrying light weapons. It's not as if this crimelord has been forced into hiding/going legit thanks to the Empire's high regard for the law in the Outer Rim territories!

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-12-12 01:49pm

The Weekly Standard's major editor comments on FNC. Don't be surprised by any loony thing they believe.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-12-12 04:28pm

I'm guessing FNC = Fox News Channel?

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-12-12 07:11pm

Kurgan wrote:Unless you happen to be related to someone possessing something the Empire wants, or once sold something the Empire wants, or someone who lives on the same planet as someone who may or may not be a traitor to the Empire, or if you're a Wookiee, etc.

Nitpick. Wookiees aren't citizens. They don't even have a rating of sapience.

Besides, they've already started to nationalize commerce in the central systems! (wonder what the Weeky Standard writer thinks of that one)

Rebel propaganda, I suppose.

Divine-right Jedi? I hope this isn't a David-Brin-esque swipe at the Jedi being god-like rulers. Since recall that they served the state. Palpatine is the "divine right" ruler, since he's a Dark Lord of the Sith! The Empire is ruled by Force Users, whereas the Republic was ruled by the Senate.

One could argue, in theory, that Palpy put himself in via his own efforts and he just happened to be a Sith. Look at the Jedi. Who of them had made it to an Academy? Had any experience leading trooops? Had any experience as a miltary rather than police? But guess what? The war comes, all of a sudden, they are Generals. Uh, um, um.

We get an Imperial officer slandering bounty hunters inches away from said bounty hunters (rather tactless!),

But perhaps also noble. If Palpy and Vader liked employing criminals, the regular fleet doesn't seem to be so eager.

refering to Wookiees as "things"

They are just going off the book which has officially rated them as non-sapient (how reassuring the Power of Authority is!). And we are not exactly miles above them. We only got out of the business of rating our own species as inferior 150 years ago, and we hadn't rated any other species as an equal yet. Nor have the average person even tried to work out Dogspeak. And of course, we still have countless people calling blacks "niggers".

Not to mention the fact that the Empire tortures people (without asking them any questions),

Known Rebels.

harasses legitimate businessmen while repeatedly breaking faith with them,

They are in pursuit of a bunch of criminals and traitors who participated in only one of the biggest cases of sabotage and treason in recent Galactic History - the destruction of Death Star I and the attempted murder of Darth Vader, then Imperial Emissary (review ANH) and now probably Executor of the Empire if he has a title. All Vader insisted, IIRC, is that he gets to arrest everyone - not just Han, a perfectly reasonable demand considering the harm this bunch had caused to the State. His threat was just that, a threat - if the business proves uncooperative and harboring Rebel sympathies, of course a garrison has to be put there. Lando was lucky he wasn't simply arrested for harboring known Traitors and he was the one who betrayed the Empire, thus proving Vader's fears about this business owner's political reliability.

and executes their own officers for mistakes that may not even have been their fault.

There were about two people executed. Ozzel and Needa. Ozzel made a deployment error which caused an un-necessary assault (deaths), while Needa can't even realize that the ship is on his backside.

So propaganda spouted by a Dark Lord of the Sith in order to convert his opponent over to his side is proof that the Empire isn't evil? Puh-leez!

But it does show mercy. He might be pissed. But he could have cut something more vital or hacked Luke a couple of times even if he doesn't kill him outright.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-12-12 07:37pm

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
Kurgan wrote:Unless you happen to be related to someone possessing something the Empire wants, or once sold something the Empire wants, or someone who lives on the same planet as someone who may or may not be a traitor to the Empire, or if you're a Wookiee, etc.
Nitpick. Wookiees aren't citizens. They don't even have a rating of sapience.

Bullshit. That only proves that the Empire is indeed evil, since they rated Wookiees as nonsapient simply to gain a slave race. A legal definition that is a lie is still a lie. Wookiees had representatives in the Republic Senate; it's not like nobody knew they were sapient.

Besides, they've already started to nationalize commerce in the central systems! (wonder what the Weeky Standard writer thinks of that one)
Rebel propaganda, I suppose.

Ah yes, the be-all, end-all answer for everything bad that the Empire did. "They didn't really do that! It's all Rebel lies!" Give me a break.

Divine-right Jedi? I hope this isn't a David-Brin-esque swipe at the Jedi being god-like rulers. Since recall that they served the state. Palpatine is the "divine right" ruler, since he's a Dark Lord of the Sith! The Empire is ruled by Force Users, whereas the Republic was ruled by the Senate.
One could argue, in theory, that Palpy put himself in via his own efforts and he just happened to be a Sith. Look at the Jedi. Who of them had made it to an Academy? Had any experience leading trooops? Had any experience as a miltary rather than police? But guess what? The war comes, all of a sudden, they are Generals. Uh, um, um.

Palpatine put himself there through his immoral and illegal efforts. Just because there wasn't an outright military coup doesn't mean what he did was legal.

We get an Imperial officer slandering bounty hunters inches away from said bounty hunters (rather tactless!),
But perhaps also noble. If Palpy and Vader liked employing criminals, the regular fleet doesn't seem to be so eager.

The fleet was happy to lay the BDZ on any planet the Emperor or Vader wished. Decorum towards bounty hunters pales in comparison to that.

refering to Wookiees as "things"
They are just going off the book which has officially rated them as non-sapient (how reassuring the Power of Authority is!). And we are not exactly miles above them. We only got out of the business of rating our own species as inferior 150 years ago, and we hadn't rated any other species as an equal yet. Nor have the average person even tried to work out Dogspeak. And of course, we still have countless people calling blacks "niggers".

Ad hominem tu quoque. And again, simply saying that they're not sapient doesn't make it so; in fact, since they can be held prisoner and are considered prisoners ("Prisoner transfer from Cell Block 1138," a statement that the officer didn't just come out and say "Well that's not right, he's an animal, not a prisoner" to) they are obviously known to be sapient and are simply rated as not sapient for the benefit of their slave labor.

Not to mention the fact that the Empire tortures people (without asking them any questions),
Known Rebels.

This justifies torture how?

harasses legitimate businessmen while repeatedly breaking faith with them,
They are in pursuit of a bunch of criminals and traitors who participated in only one of the biggest cases of sabotage and treason in recent Galactic History - the destruction of Death Star I and the attempted murder of Darth Vader, then Imperial Emissary (review ANH) and now probably Executor of the Empire if he has a title. All Vader insisted, IIRC, is that he gets to arrest everyone - not just Han, a perfectly reasonable demand considering the harm this bunch had caused to the State. His threat was just that, a threat - if the business proves uncooperative and harboring Rebel sympathies, of course a garrison has to be put there. Lando was lucky he wasn't simply arrested for harboring known Traitors and he was the one who betrayed the Empire, thus proving Vader's fears about this business owner's political reliability.

"This business owner" was betrayed first, mulitple times. Vader's fears my ass, Vader was going to nationalize Cloud City anyway when he had gotten what he wanted. Note how Lando announcing that Imperial troops had taken over the facility precipitated mass panic; this is hardly the reaction of citizens to a benign, non-interfering Empire.

and executes their own officers for mistakes that may not even have been their fault.
There were about two people executed. Ozzel and Needa. Ozzel made a deployment error which caused an un-necessary assault (deaths), while Needa can't even realize that the ship is on his backside.

Bevel Limelisk, executed and cloned multiple times. The homeworld of Qwi Xux, where entire cities would be bombarded off the map if students residing there screwed up on a test question. Alderaan. Caamas. Ralltiir's High Council. Kyp Durron's parents. Dorsk 81's homeworld. The ensign Thrawn had killed.

So propaganda spouted by a Dark Lord of the Sith in order to convert his opponent over to his side is proof that the Empire isn't evil? Puh-leez!
But it does show mercy. He might be pissed. But he could have cut something more vital or hacked Luke a couple of times even if he doesn't kill him outright.

Because he wanted Luke to be his Sith apprentice so he could depose the Emperor and rule for himself. His mercy wasn't motivated by any noble goal; it was entirely for his own benefit.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2004-12-12 10:06pm

nitpick - wasnt bespin ignoring imperial taxes and the mining guild anyway?

Ive no doubt al capone would panic as much when the irs guys started knocking.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-12-12 10:22pm

As for the author of the article, he lies at the beginning when he says that he's only considering the movies. The movies give no indication that Han was Imperial military; that's EU information.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-12-12 10:25pm

He says he's assuming, dumbass.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-12-12 10:41pm

Rogue 9 wrote:Bullshit. That only proves that the Empire is indeed evil, since they rated Wookiees as nonsapient simply to gain a slave race. A legal definition that is a lie is still a lie. Wookiees had representatives in the Republic Senate; it's not like nobody knew they were sapient.

The lines between one status and another in legal terms can be fairly arbitrary. For instance, justify why 18.01 years is "adult" and 17.99 years is still "minor". Obviously, a line had just moved, and they were just under the cut.

Ah yes, the be-all, end-all answer for everything bad that the Empire did. "They didn't really do that! It's all Rebel lies!" Give me a break.

Let me ask you. Do you deny the Rebels might be a little biased in their reporting?

Palpatine put himself there through his immoral and illegal efforts. Just because there wasn't an outright military coup doesn't mean what he did was legal.

How does it change the point he got up there painstakingly and at least stopped a system w/ a terminal disease?

The fleet was happy to lay the BDZ on any planet the Emperor or Vader wished. Decorum towards bounty hunters pales in comparison to that.

Guess what pal. The duty of the Armed Forces is to land destruction on any target the National Leadership wished them to. Every day, countless missiles stand by in silos targeted at "countervalue targets" (cities and civilians) and they are supposed to fire without hesitation on command. Are those missile crews also sick fucks?

considered prisoners ("Prisoner transfer from Cell Block 1138," a statement that the officer didn't just come out and say "Well that's not right, he's an animal, not a prisoner" to) they are obviously known to be sapient and are simply rated as not sapient for the benefit of their slave labor.

So some have dissenting views or aren't careful with their speech. Your objection is ridiculous and nitpicking in view of their legal status.

This justifies torture how?

You mean, you will feel a great obligation to respect every human right in the world against recalcitrant Rebel terrorists that have nearly murdered you and have murdered countless numbers of your men? Considering you are thinking of Vader so poorly, I don't think him merely being human is something worthy of particular criticism.

"This business owner" was betrayed first, mulitple times. Vader's fears my ass, Vader was going to nationalize Cloud City anyway when he had gotten what he wanted. Note how Lando announcing that Imperial troops had taken over the facility precipitated mass panic; this is hardly the reaction of citizens to a benign, non-interfering Empire.

Perhaps because they were semilegit. Lando does have a reputation for semilegit businesses. And even Lando implies they were trying to stay under the Imperial radar by saying Bespin's a small place and doesn't get too much attention. And after having helped the Rebels escape. Really ... I bet the troopers won't be nice now.

Bevel Limelisk, executed and cloned multiple times. The homeworld of Qwi Xux, where entire cities would be bombarded off the map if students residing there screwed up on a test question. Alderaan. Caamas. Ralltiir's High Council. Kyp Durron's parents. Dorsk 81's homeworld. The ensign Thrawn had killed.

I meant in the film. Bevel's little design error caused the lives of over a million dedicated soldiers. Qwi Xux was cruel, I'd admit (unless there's something you hadn't told me yet). Aldie and Ralltiir we've discussed, and I simply don't have enough information on the other planets, Kyp and Dorsk. And it wasn't an Ensign that Thrawn killed. It was a conscript tech who refused to own up to his mistake.

Because he wanted Luke to be his Sith apprentice so he could depose the Emperor and rule for himself. His mercy wasn't motivated by any noble goal; it was entirely for his own benefit.

So he wanted something. Wow, that makes a mercy not a mercy at all...

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-12-12 10:55pm

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:The lines between one status and another in legal terms can be fairly arbitrary. For instance, justify why 18.01 years is "adult" and 17.99 years is still "minor". Obviously, a line had just moved, and they were just under the cut.

The line is drawn arbitrarily with the specific intent to provide the Empire with slaves. What justification is there for redrawing the line? You supply none, and simply appeal to the Empire's moral authority. No dice.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Let me ask you. Do you deny the Rebels might be a little biased in their reporting?

No evidence, Mick--I mean Kaz.

You're treating the nationalization as an a priori bad thing so its obvious it must be Rebel propoganda (what a cute definition of Rebel propoganda: "they think the Empire is bad so any examples they cite must be untrue." I'll let you in on something: not all propoganda is false.)

To a socialist, this accusation by Biggs is a glowing compliment of the Imperial State. 'fraid you're being subjective and arbitrary, again.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:So some have dissenting views or aren't careful with their speech. Your objection is ridiculous and nitpicking in view of their legal status.

Or their legal status is just lip service. Notice that Chewbacca could be disguised as a Wookiee bounty hunter with an Imperial-recognized ID and checked at Coruscant in SOTE. How consistent.

And that reminds me, bounty hunters are quite obvious by even the most casual observations to not be criminals.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Perhaps because they were semilegit. Lando does have a reputation for semilegit businesses.

Examples?

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:And even Lando implies they were trying to stay under the Imperial radar by saying Bespin's a small place and doesn't get too much attention.

Business is probably better without minders from the Ministry of Plenty.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2004-12-12 11:03pm

why would they need slaves? droids do it better -

it seems sensible that while slavery may exist, it couldnt be an institution - droids are far more effective.

as well, ip, Im sure jp morgan would have loved your libertarian hands off goverment style.

not all govs become 1984

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-12-12 11:54pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The line is drawn arbitrarily with the specific intent to provide the Empire with slaves. What justification is there for redrawing the line? You supply none, and simply appeal to the Empire's moral authority. No dice.

1) If you read previous posts in the previous thread, you'd know personally, I abhor slavery. Do I have to make it my sig or something?
2) The point is "standards of the time". Not everyone that ever owned a slave is a sick fuck. THey only did what came "naturally" at the societal norms of the time.
3) Any arbitary justification would do. They can't speak Basic. People have rated their own species as inferiors for less before.
4) I can go: "The line against droids is drawn arbitarily with the specific intent to provide the organics with slaves. This specism proves the GFFA is almost completely made of sick fucks."

You're treating the nationalization as an a priori bad thing so its obvious it must be Rebel propoganda (what a cute definition of Rebel propoganda: "they think the Empire is bad so any examples they cite must be untrue." I'll let you in on something: not all propoganda is false.)

But not all propaganda is true. Generally, the best mix is a core of fact wrapped by layers of lies and exaggerations. I'm sure, somewhere, in the galaxy, a few companies got nationalized. Biggs, trying to get Luke to join him as a Rebel, put it in such a way so Luke would join him.

To a socialist, this accusation by Biggs is a glowing compliment of the Imperial State. 'fraid you're being subjective and arbitrary, again.

It is pretty clear what Biggs want.

Or their legal status is just lip service. Notice that Chewbacca could be disguised as a Wookiee bounty hunter with an Imperial-recognized ID and checked at Coruscant in SOTE. How consistent.

I noticed a droid ( IG-88 ) can be a recognized (and distinguished) Bounty Hunter too. But I don't think anyone's seriously arguing that the people of the GFFA generally treat droids as anything other than property.

And that reminds me, bounty hunters are quite obvious by even the most casual observations to not be criminals.

The best observation is that they are borderline. They are clearly despised, and in the Hutt Gambit, it is IIRC stated how people don't tend to care much (policewise) when a bounty hunter gets killed.

Examples?

My library's way from the best. But even I can remember Lando's last business before Bespin, leasing out ships ... to smugglers. And if you think it is because of Imperial oppression, let's not forget his antics in BFC (sneaking past the security of a top-secret facility to sit in the Director's chair) and Dubrillion. Honestly, if not for his war-deeds and his relationship to people like Luke and Leia, that guy would be in a New Republic prison by now.

Business is probably better without minders from the Ministry of Plenty.

While I'd agree, imagine it from the governmental POV. As far as they were concerned, you were evading their regs, and you clearly have something to hide.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-12-13 12:46am

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote: 1) If you read previous posts in the previous thread, you'd know personally, I abhor slavery. Do I have to make it my sig or something?
2) The point is "standards of the time". Not everyone that ever owned a slave is a sick fuck. THey only did what came "naturally" at the societal norms of the time.
3) Any arbitary justification would do. They can't speak Basic. People have rated their own species as inferiors for less before.
4) I can go: "The line against droids is drawn arbitarily with the specific intent to provide the organics with slaves. This specism proves the GFFA is almost completely made of sick fucks."

Except I can point out that Kantian ethics would not suggest that droids are the same as humans. You did not even try to justify it by ethics. You just appeal to humanity's amorality and "shit happens."

NO MORE RL EXCUSES. Either justify it YOURSELF or drop it. Don't try and say, "Well what about this..." That doesn't cut it. That's how Shep responds to everything he hates in N&P.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:But not all propaganda is true. Generally, the best mix is a core of fact wrapped by layers of lies and exaggerations. I'm sure, somewhere, in the galaxy, a few companies got nationalized. Biggs, trying to get Luke to join him as a Rebel, put it in such a way so Luke would join him.

This is like someone trying to forment opposition against Nazi Germany by saying "their killing millions of Jews" and you'd automatically conclude they are wrong or exaggerating because they are providing an assertion to support their position.

Sorry, you haven't brought any evidence that its untrue or unreasonable. Propoganda is a crutch we fall upon when circumstancial and other evidence makes something highly unreasonable and a party controlling the presses would have reason to alter it.

You can't cite it whenever you want. That's arbtrarily and subjective. Its just like the people who cite "filmic intent" whenever they want to score points.

Its unmitigated bullshit. Sorry, no dice.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:It is pretty clear what Biggs want.

And you haven't a shred of evidence, so who gives a fuck.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:I noticed a droid ( IG-88 ) can be a recognized (and distinguished) Bounty Hunter too. But I don't think anyone's seriously arguing that the people of the GFFA generally treat droids as anything other than property.

Vader's whim is above the law (obviously since he contradicted the "dismantle on sight" order for IG-88). A Customs desk jockey on Imperial Center is not the same thing as Lord Vader looking for Luke Skywalker.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:The best observation is that they are borderline. They are clearly despised, and in the Hutt Gambit, it is IIRC stated how people don't tend to care much (policewise) when a bounty hunter gets killed.

Well you're obviously not paying attention then, since they are licensed members of an organization, the Bounty Hunters' Guild, and they can pass clearly identified on Imperial Center. There is simply no evidence for this assertion other than the fact they are treated like low-lifes. It does not follow that low lifes must be criminals. Concede.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:While I'd agree, imagine it from the governmental POV. As far as they were concerned, you were evading their regs, and you clearly have something to hide.

I really do think you're a disturbingly extreme statist, Kaz.

And besides, it doesn't mean they have anything to hide. It just means truly free enterprise is anathema to totalitarian regimes.