Article: The Dominance of Neoconservative Morality

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Article: The Dominance of Neoconservative Morality

Post by Edi »

All right, people, this here article was something published in Helsingin Sanomat on December 12, and it was written by Ari Helo, a researcher in the Renvall Institute of the Helsinki University. Helo specializes in US history and has a doctorate degree (presumably in political sciences, though it wasn't stated).

The original article is in Finnish, so what follows is quick and dirty translation by yours truly. I thought it brings up some interesting points that I have not seen put forward here in any detail yet, though Mike has touched on them briefly a couple of times. Note that the term "neoconservative appears in two different meanings in translation, as both the neocons like Wolfowitz et al and in the meaning "the new right wing", as both terms in Finnish are the same. And if anybody entertains thoughts of posting this stuff elsewhere, I'd rather you didn't and if you absolutely must, put in the disclaimer that this is an unofficial and unauthorized translation of Mr. Helo's writings.

Helsingin Sanomat as translated by Edi wrote:The recent defeat of the Democratcic party in both US presidential and Congressional elections is closely connected to the manner in which moral issues are covered in American mainstream media. The neoconservatives led by George W. Bush have managed to call into question the whole moral basis of the welfare state advovated by the "left" wing of the Democrats.

The United States has emphasized its status as the first country in the world where everyone is guaranteed an equal opportunity to better their lot since its founding. But outside this doctrine of individual rights that supports the modern consumer society there is a whole group of issues and questions about social equality that the welfare model tackles in the form of wealth distribution and education policy issues. The neoconservatives do not see this kind of thinking as genuinely moral.

Immediately after the presidential election it was announced that Bush intends to "reform" the American social security system. In simplified terms the reform means that in the future social security services would not be provided by the state but by religious volunteer organizations.

American neoconservatism was created in the 1970s in the name of the Moral Majority. It was a reaction to the radicalism of the late 1960s that seemed to abandon all traditional American values with its demands for a welfare state.

After all, the middle class had only recently agreed to the demands for civil rights by the black minority, which was felt to be radical in and of itself.

The "moral majority" created by the tele-evangelists evolved gradually into an ecumenical anti-welfare state movement. Its premise is that if the Western idea of loving one's neighbor becomes a social issue, it will threaten the position of Christianity as the basis of the common man's everyday ethics.

Social justice and fairness should therefore be based on the individual religiously motivated love for one's neighbor. If we support the redistribution of wealth only because we think that race riots weaken our country's competitiveness, then our motications can indeed be seen as morally irrelevant.

The ethics favored by the religious fundamentalists -- and focused more on the motivations of actions than on the results of the actions -- are already deeply embedded into the American social discourse. We must remember that already during President Clinton's term the federal social security system was weakened so much that the mainstream media noted that America has kissed the welfare state goodbye.

In 2000, the electorate was wooed with proclamations that the freedom of religion written into the Constitution did not apply to the non-religious. This was said by Al Gore's vice presdential candidate Joe Lieberman.

In fact, the neoconservatives have managed to call into question the whole concept of politics as societal action whose aim is to mediate conflicts between groups with different interests through compromise. Compromise is not acceptable to the moralist.

In the field of foreign policy this approach of shunning talking politics is clearly visible in even Democratic views. President Jimmy Carter tied US foreign policy tightly to human rights issues and during President Clinton's term there was a drive to create a doctrine of "rogue states" that pose a threat to free societies.

When President Bush later wanted to attack Iraq, the Democrats had no arguments left to attack the moral basis of a war of invasion. After all, Saddam Hussein had demonstrably violated human rights in his country even without weapons of amss destruction. In the eyes of the electorate, Bush's new doctrine of preemptive war didn't look nearly as radical a definition of foreign policy as political scientists claim it to be.
Okay, that was it, thoughts?

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Post by Glocksman »

Interesting outside perspective, if nothing else.

A few thoughts.
Immediately after the presidential election it was announced that Bush intends to "reform" the American social security system. In simplified terms the reform means that in the future social security services would not be provided by the state but by religious volunteer organizations.

American neoconservatism was created in the 1970s in the name of the Moral Majority. It was a reaction to the radicalism of the late 1960s that seemed to abandon all traditional American values with its demands for a welfare state.
Americans who dislike the welfare state are not all 'neoconservative' (in fact, a lot of neoconservatives were liberals or outright socialists at one point and neoconservatism isn't reflexively opposed to the welfare state or large government.) or do so out of religious reasons. There are quite a few libertarians who do so as well. This distrust of 'social security' (most Americans think of the retirement program when this term is used, not welfare programs in general) extends far back in our history and is tied to the historical distrust Americans have had for a powerful central government.

Since the 1930's and FDR, that distrust of centralized government has faded quite a bit, but the dislike of welfare programs is partially a legacy of that mistrust. Of course there are religious factors involved as well, but I don't believe they're the primary concern of the majority of those who oppose such programs today. Instead the motivation is probably more selfish: the desire to not pay the taxes to fund those services.

Also, unless there's mistranslation somewhere, the 'reforms' Bush announced that he'd pursue for Social Security have nothing to do with 'religious volunteer organizations'. His proposals are outlined here. He does have a 'faith based initiative' bullshit plan, but it's nothing new and wasn't recently announced.
In fact, the neoconservatives have managed to call into question the whole concept of politics as societal action whose aim is to mediate conflicts between groups with different interests through compromise. Compromise is not acceptable to the moralist.
Now this is true, but I would change 'moralist' to 'ideologist', as nothing blinds one to the possibility of compromise like being totally devoted to a particular ideology, whether that ideology is left or right wing.

As for the meaning of 'neoconservatism' goes, not every conservative is a neo. In fact, a lot of what neoconservatives hold dear is anathema to other conservatives.

It's an interesting article.
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Post by White Cat »

Glocksman wrote:As for the meaning of 'neoconservatism' goes, not every conservative is a neo. In fact, a lot of what neoconservatives hold dear is anathema to other conservatives.
Thank you! For years, I've been wondering what exactly this "neo-conservative" term that's always being thrown around means.
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Post by Coyote »

Neoconservatism, like Libertarianism, can be confusing to define to Americans, much less to outside observers. I think it is good to read articles like this because it lets people know what they look like to others, whethjer intentional or not.

Kind of the "Rashomon Effect" of politics, I guess.

But yeah, we forget that what passes for a "Leftist" in America would be, to many other social systems, a right-of-center nationalist.
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Post by Darth Wong »

I've said it before here, and I'll say it again: modern conservative politics, whether they be libertarian or neo-conservative, share one defining characteristic: an almost pathological obsession with "fairness" and an almost complete disregard for the counterbalancing virtue of sympathy.
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

There is a place for helping people who are down on their luck. But sympathy shouldnt be wasted on those who will take advantage of it unfairly. If we are going to have a nice government welfare program it needs to be properly managed, and we need to actually police who goes on said programs, and how long under what conditions they be allowed to stay on them. This is not done adequatly. There are people on welfare in the US that are perfectly capable of supporting themselves, and havng them pay the rent at taxpayer expense and using what they actually did earn to pay for Porsche(sp) or huge flat screen TV with surround sound is not acceptable. Neither is allowing people to live indefinently at taxpayer expense when they are perfectly capable of finding a job and supporting themselves(and if they have a job and cant support themselves with it, then we can work something ut of course), but refuse to do so.

There need to be limits to sympathy as well.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:There is a place for helping people who are down on their luck. But sympathy shouldnt be wasted on those who will take advantage of it unfairly. If we are going to have a nice government welfare program it needs to be properly managed, and we need to actually police who goes on said programs, and how long under what conditions they be allowed to stay on them. This is not done adequatly. There are people on welfare in the US that are perfectly capable of supporting themselves, and havng them pay the rent at taxpayer expense and using what they actually did earn to pay for Porsche(sp) or huge flat screen TV with surround sound is not acceptable.
I would love to see these welfare recipients with Porsches and big-screen TVs that you're talking about.
Neither is allowing people to live indefinently at taxpayer expense when they are perfectly capable of finding a job and supporting themselves(and if they have a job and cant support themselves with it, then we can work something ut of course), but refuse to do so.

There need to be limits to sympathy as well.
Yes, and as far as most libertarians are concerned, those limits are near-zero. The very notion of saying that sympathy itself must also be "fair" is fucking stupid; that's the whole point I was trying to make: that sympathy and fairness are counterbalancing virtues. Fairness is an infantile form of morality: it is the first thing any child learns to demand from his parents, because he is so accustomed to their sympathy that he takes it for granted. And as people grow up, not all of them realize that.
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Post by Coyote »

I actually doubt that the majority of people on welfare are able to afford big-ticket cars and luxuries... although there are some out there, I'm sure. A few years ago, JR Simplot, the agriculture magnate in Boise, had heart surgery and Medicare paid for it (he's a millionaire many times over)...

But even if it means living in a stinky trailer and wearing the same clothes for 3+ days in a row, and using the bus and eating off of Green Stamps, the fact that folks could live on Welfare and not have to lift a finger to actually "work" is appealing to some.

If they're lazy, unwilling to discipline themselves or get trained (or drop out of school), th eidea of lazing around in filth is, to htem, better than some sweat and a nice house. They ruin it for the peopel who do have legitimate problems and are unable to work or too old.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
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Post by Darth Wong »

Coyote wrote:I actually doubt that the majority of people on welfare are able to afford big-ticket cars and luxuries... although there are some out there, I'm sure. A few years ago, JR Simplot, the agriculture magnate in Boise, had heart surgery and Medicare paid for it (he's a millionaire many times over)...

But even if it means living in a stinky trailer and wearing the same clothes for 3+ days in a row, and using the bus and eating off of Green Stamps, the fact that folks could live on Welfare and not have to lift a finger to actually "work" is appealing to some.

If they're lazy, unwilling to discipline themselves or get trained (or drop out of school), th eidea of lazing around in filth is, to htem, better than some sweat and a nice house. They ruin it for the peopel who do have legitimate problems and are unable to work or too old.
The problem with the people who gleefully say "fuck 'em!!!!!" is that you should not, as a matter of principle, punish children for the sins of their parents. This is a big conundrum for the sympathy vs fairness balance in society, and one for which no entirely satisfactory solution is obvious, so some people simply decide to forget about that whole issue and focus only on one half of it: the "fairness" part. This gives them their precious "moral clarity", and allows them to sleep well at night believing that their solution is completely just and correct, without any niggling conscience issues to worry about.
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Post by Stravo »

I had to laugh out loud at the audacity of the assertion that there are welfare recipients buying Porsches and big screen TV's. It's like the Reagan 'welfare queen' statement. The people who trot out this ridiculous claim obviously have not a fucking clue how much welfare recipients get. It's barely enough to keep themselves afloat, trust me I know quite a few folks that have had to go on Welfare at one time or another. Are there cheats? Of course there are. Are they buying cars and big screen TV's? No dumbass. The cheats generally are getting their hair done, nails done and buying some cute outfits at Old Navy. That is the extenet of what they can do with those exorbidant welfare checks.


EDIT: And by the way, if someone told me that was the price I had to pay to make sure some child or a hardworking single mom weren't out on the street starving I would gladly pay it and not look back.
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Post by Edi »

I should note that the article does not speak solely of the Rummy/Cheney type neocons, but refers also to the new breed of conservatives that got trotted out in the 1990s, the fundies we all bash here. Glocksman and most other conservatives here are of the traditional breed, not the new tyeps referred to in the article by the term "neocon".

Another note: the term "welfare state" does not have the negative connotations in Finnish that most Americans attach to it. Here it means a basic safety net of having some kind of assistance available, and it sure as fuck isn't all that much. Not enough to live on in the Helsinki area anyway when talking about the payments, but it also includes such things as (almost) free public healthcare and free education (elementary and high school, university or vocational). And on that score, Mike and Stravo nailed it dead center. I assumed, correctly, that there would be some people who would jump on that term and begin harping about it...

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Post by Boyish-Tigerlilly »

I would love to see these welfare recipients with Porsches and big-screen TVs that you're talking about.
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Post by Boyish-Tigerlilly »

Not that that equates to Big Tv's or porshes =D That's a bit of hyperbole
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Post by Glocksman »

Glocksman and most other conservatives here are of the traditional breed, not the new tyeps referred to in the article by the term "neocon".
While I don't care for the idea of a 'welfare state' per se, I and most other conservatives do recognize the need for a minimal social safety net. The disagreement is over the extent of the programs. For example, as coyote noted, the Medicare program covers the elderly regardless of their income.

Personally I think that until the day we have universal health care for all ages in the US, any public assistance paid health care should be needs (i.e.: income) based, not age based.

There's no Goddamn logical reason why a millionaire should be eligible for taxpayer funded medical care simply because he or she is 65 or older, while some poor shmoe working 2 jobs and barely getting by can't get dick because they make 'too much money' to qualify for assistance. :x

Grandpa should give up his Winnebago before asking the public to fund his healthcare.
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Ok, I exadurated(sp, I hate that fucking word) with the fancy cars and big screens.
Yes, and as far as most libertarians are concerned, those limits are near-zero. The very notion of saying that sympathy itself must also be "fair" is fucking stupid; that's the whole point I was trying to make: that sympathy and fairness are counterbalancing virtues. Fairness is an infantile form of morality: it is the first thing any child learns to demand from his parents, because he is so accustomed to their sympathy that he takes it for granted. And as people grow up, not all of them realize that.
Why should sympathy be blind Mike? SHouldnt we critically examine somone's situation before we make an investment in them? That is what welfare is. It is monetary help in the implicit understanding that it is not permanent, and that it is used to get a person or family back on their feet in order that they may once again contribute to society,and live happy normal productive lives. IE a social investment.

Hardworking single mothers who cant make ends meet. SUre, help them out, by all means. It isnt her fault that she got married out of high school and 8 years into her marriage her husband left her for his secretary, leaving her with 2.3(on on the way) kids, no job, and no applicable job skills, and works a double shift at Denny's in order to pay rent. Helping her out is sympathy. Subsidizing the lives of some hick in the south who refuses to work, is stupidity. And basically allowing them to rob the state, and by extension, every single taxpayer.
The problem with the people who gleefully say "fuck 'em!!!!!" is that you should not, as a matter of principle, punish children for the sins of their parents.
If they have parents that dont care enough about themselves and have no ambition in life(like the above example that you just responded to) the children would probably be better off as wards of the state(depending on the state of course. I have seen both miracles and nightmares in CPS, depending on the state in question, and the case.)

All I ask is regular followup on cases. Have some kind of time limit say, 6 months to a year, after which time they need to submit proof that they are getting job training. Or have them continually prove that they are trying to find work or start up a home business. All of which are readily doable. Just make sure they are fulfilling or attempting to fullfill their end of the bargain. Work welfare in a manner similar to CPS, have a regional caseworker(s) that follow up on cases in a given area. Make it state administrated, or even municipally in order to cut down on adminstrative costs.

Or at least that is what I would do... but then again, it makes far to much sense to ever be implemented.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Why should sympathy be blind Mike? SHouldnt we critically examine somone's situation before we make an investment in them?
It's NOT AN INVESTMENT, fucktard. You are only demonstrating the kind of idiotically blinded mentality I was talking about earlier.
That is what welfare is. It is monetary help in the implicit understanding that it is not permanent, and that it is used to get a person or family back on their feet in order that they may once again contribute to society,and live happy normal productive lives. IE a social investment.
Wrong. It is borne out of the principle that a moral people do not allow others to starve so that they can afford a bigger house or a nicer car. You would obviously like them to get off it someday, but it is NOT an investment.
Hardworking single mothers who cant make ends meet. SUre, help them out, by all means. It isnt her fault that she got married out of high school and 8 years into her marriage her husband left her for his secretary, leaving her with 2.3(on on the way) kids, no job, and no applicable job skills, and works a double shift at Denny's in order to pay rent. Helping her out is sympathy. Subsidizing the lives of some hick in the south who refuses to work, is stupidity. And basically allowing them to rob the state, and by extension, every single taxpayer.
So you should just cut them off, and say "fuck you" to their kids too?
The problem with the people who gleefully say "fuck 'em!!!!!" is that you should not, as a matter of principle, punish children for the sins of their parents.
If they have parents that dont care enough about themselves and have no ambition in life(like the above example that you just responded to) the children would probably be better off as wards of the state(depending on the state of course. I have seen both miracles and nightmares in CPS, depending on the state in question, and the case.)
Ah, so your solution is more state-run orphanages :roll:
All I ask is regular followup on cases. Have some kind of time limit say, 6 months to a year, after which time they need to submit proof that they are getting job training. Or have them continually prove that they are trying to find work or start up a home business. All of which are readily doable.
And if they fail these requirements? What do you do, exactly?
Just make sure they are fulfilling or attempting to fullfill their end of the bargain. Work welfare in a manner similar to CPS, have a regional caseworker(s) that follow up on cases in a given area. Make it state administrated, or even municipally in order to cut down on adminstrative costs.

Or at least that is what I would do... but then again, it makes far to much sense to ever be implemented.
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

It's NOT AN INVESTMENT, fucktard. You are only demonstrating the kind of idiotically blinded mentality I was talking about earlier.
Alright, so explain what the concept of a safety net means. Allowing someone to fall into it, and then letting them sit back and enjoy a nice nap without working to get out of it and back on the trapese bar?
Wrong. It is borne out of the principle that a moral people do not allow others to starve so that they can afford a bigger house or a nicer car. You would obviously like them to get off it someday, but it is NOT an investment.


Ah, ok, wording issues. I see. very well, how about implicit trust. Would that work a little better? Yes, we would like people to get out of our nice safety net. After all it gets a bit heavy and hard to support in our little circus. But what are we going to do about it? SAsk nicely? If someone was skimming off your paycheck at work you would probably get pretty pissed off. I know I would. It is one thing if this person is starving and destitute, and working hard to get back on his feet. SKimming your paycheck for a couple months in order to make ends meet. That, both of us can accept. But what if the person makes no effort at getting back on his feet, and merely skims your paycheck and makes no indication of stopping? Is robbery ok just because someone is poor? No. No it isnt.
So you should just cut them off, and say "fuck you" to their kids too?
No, you say "fuck them, they are unfit parents anyway" and take their kids, making them wards of the state(foster care)
Ah, so your solution is more state-run orphanages
we dont have that many state run orphanages. Mostly foster families. WHich may or may not be the best place for kids(depending on the family) but is surely better than a dinky trialer living in their own filth.
And if they fail these requirements? What do you do, exactly?
Start weening them off the dole. Forcefully. Start cutting their welfare checks until they are to small for the person to support themselves on. Then cut them completely. You will then have given that person every reasonable chance at bettering themselves. If they dont do it even then.. well, see above for what to do with their children, and cut them of completely.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Darth Wong wrote:The problem with the people who gleefully say "fuck 'em!!!!!" is that you should not, as a matter of principle, punish children for the sins of their parents.
That's actually a problem I've been thinking about a lot in other contexts, recently. Over the past year or two, I've been finding myself more and more torn over issues like that. For example, I generally think that people need to take responsibility for their own actions, so when someone gets an abortion because they forgot to practice basic safe-sex I usually look down on that. On the other hand, if this person isn't responsible enough to practice safe-sex then what the fuck is going to happen if you force them to have a kid? The kid'll be horribly fucked, and won't even have a chance at life. I realize that that's a somewhat related issue, but I really don't know how to demand more responsibility out of people in a situation where you simply HAVE to provide them with an escape hatch for the good of society.
This is a big conundrum for the sympathy vs fairness balance in society, and one for which no entirely satisfactory solution is obvious, so some people simply decide to forget about that whole issue and focus only on one half of it: the "fairness" part. This gives them their precious "moral clarity", and allows them to sleep well at night believing that their solution is completely just and correct, without any niggling conscience issues to worry about.
If only it were that simple.

I hope you're right, Mike, in that there's no satisfactory solution, since I've been wrestling with that issue a lot and I haven't come up with anything reasonable, yet.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
It's NOT AN INVESTMENT, fucktard. You are only demonstrating the kind of idiotically blinded mentality I was talking about earlier.
Alright, so explain what the concept of a safety net means. Allowing someone to fall into it, and then letting them sit back and enjoy a nice nap without working to get out of it and back on the trapese bar?
If you define "not starving" as "a nice nap", sure. Why is it you fucktards always resort to deceptive rhetorical language in order to make your point? Does it not occur to you that if your point doesn't sound good without these kinds of bullshit tactics, then maybe there's something wrong with it?
Wrong. It is borne out of the principle that a moral people do not allow others to starve so that they can afford a bigger house or a nicer car. You would obviously like them to get off it someday, but it is NOT an investment.

Ah, ok, wording issues. I see.
Wrong. The CONCEPTS of investment and sympathy are totally different, you blithering idiot. It's not just a wording issue.
very well, how about implicit trust. Would that work a little better? Yes, we would like people to get out of our nice safety net. After all it gets a bit heavy and hard to support in our little circus. But what are we going to do about it? SAsk nicely? If someone was skimming off your paycheck at work you would probably get pretty pissed off. I know I would. It is one thing if this person is starving and destitute, and working hard to get back on his feet. SKimming your paycheck for a couple months in order to make ends meet. That, both of us can accept. But what if the person makes no effort at getting back on his feet, and merely skims your paycheck and makes no indication of stopping? Is robbery ok just because someone is poor? No. No it isnt.
So what's your solution? Oh wait, it's ...
So you should just cut them off, and say "fuck you" to their kids too?
No, you say "fuck them, they are unfit parents anyway" and take their kids, making them wards of the state(foster care)
What school of ethics do you subscribe to? Obviously not utilitarianism, since this action will increase societal misery considerably. And obviously not Biblical ethics, since you are not a Christian. So what is it? Mine-mine-mine-ism?
Ah, so your solution is more state-run orphanages
we dont have that many state run orphanages. Mostly foster families. WHich may or may not be the best place for kids(depending on the family) but is surely better than a dinky trialer living in their own filth.
And of course, YOU are the one who should be making this judgement for these children. I see.
And if they fail these requirements? What do you do, exactly?
Start weening them off the dole. Forcefully. Start cutting their welfare checks until they are to small for the person to support themselves on. Then cut them completely. You will then have given that person every reasonable chance at bettering themselves. If they dont do it even then.. well, see above for what to do with their children, and cut them of completely.
Thank you for validating my earlier statements about how libertarians are completely and utterly without sympathy. You can only "justify" welfare in your own mind as a form of "investment", and if you don't "get your money back", so to speak, then you withdraw your "investment".

I'm sick of your bullshit claims that welfare is "comfortable". It's not, nor was it meant to be. But your solution will cause far more problems than it solves.
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Post by BlkbrryTheGreat »

Wrong. It is borne out of the principle that a moral people do not allow others to starve so that they can afford a bigger house or a nicer car. You would obviously like them to get off it someday, but it is NOT an investment.
Last I checked Mike, you buy "luxury" goods while there are still children starving in Africa. This indicates to me that you must admit that either

A: You are a hypocrite.

B: You are willing to artifically restrict your defination of soceity so that you can enjoy a lifestyle above that of a pauper.

C. Be willing to accept that it is alright for people to buy "luxury" goods for themselves (such as a bigger house or nicer car) while other people starve.
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Post by brianeyci »

What I have been thinking about was the old idea of some sort of guaranteeded income. What always is a roadblock for that kind of idea is, why will people go to work if they are able to subsist on a guaranteeded income provided by the government? And what is "subsistence-level" existence anyway, potatoes and a roof over your head?

Truly, if we want equity for all people (not equality, which is sameness, but equity, which is fairness), and want to support the idea in Article 25 of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights,
OHCHR wrote:Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
Then, should not this standard be independent of someone's will to work? In other words, no matter how lazy ass someone is, they should be provided these rights because it is a fundamental concept of human rights?

Sadly, I can't reconcile the idea of a guaranteed income plan with the idea that the majority of people, if provided with a basic level of income, might just stop work. Think about how much our society relies on minimum wage jobs or low wage jobs that many shun because of lack of satisfaction or no benefits. Why not bolt from that kind of job if the government gave you a cheque. Lets say, even five hundred bucks a month per person, hardly enough to survive. But, with extended families, a family could rake in more than enough to compensate for not having a job. Why bust your ass bagging groceries or carting dim sum or working as a telemarketer if you, your wife and a couple kids each rake in 500 bucks. If you lower the amount to lets say 200 bucks per person, then what about single people. If you make some sort of scaling system where a family member didn't get extra income, that would be punishing people for forming families -- you could stay single and rake in more.

Not to mention the myraid of other problems, such as the drain on government coffers. Impractical, but is a guaranteed income not what we should be striving for given that every person is entitled to a subsistence level of existence as a fundamental human right?

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Post by Darth Wong »

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:
Wrong. It is borne out of the principle that a moral people do not allow others to starve so that they can afford a bigger house or a nicer car. You would obviously like them to get off it someday, but it is NOT an investment.
Last I checked Mike, you buy "luxury" goods while there are still children starving in Africa. This indicates to me that you must admit that either

A: You are a hypocrite.

B: You are willing to artifically restrict your defination of soceity so that you can enjoy a lifestyle above that of a pauper.

C. Be willing to accept that it is alright for people to buy "luxury" goods for themselves (such as a bigger house or nicer car) while other people starve.
Typical idiotic right-wingnut bullshit retort. You ignore the fact that I would not be able to enjoy a comfortable lifestyle or afford a car at all if such global redistribution took place. But by all means, feel free to go ahead and peddle black/white fallacies. The fact that you must resort to such fallacies in order to make your point ... only makes MY point.
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Post by brianeyci »

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:Last I checked Mike, you buy "luxury" goods while there are still children starving in Africa.
Holy shit. This is wrong on so many levels. First of all, children starving in Africa is not the result of individual citizens or Western nations not providing enough aid. You could pour all the fucking money you want into certain shitholes, and the local warlord would take the money and buy AK's or use it as leverage against his own population.

And "a fucking hypocrite"? Holy shit, that screams false dilemma fallacy. Either you "live as a pauper and therefore you support some sort of welfare system", or you "live as a rich muthafucka and you do not support a welfare system" is what you are saying. Don't you consider that there are choices in between? And fucking even if Wong poured all of his money into some charity organization, would the money actually get through to the hungry needy child dying of starvation or would a lot of it be caught up in administration and be funnelled into the treasure chest of the local warlord? And don't you consider that Wong has to prepare his kids for a life in a western society so he has to maintain a certain standard of living, or that Wong earned his money?

Holy fuck, the "kids starving in Africa and if you don't pay them you're a hypocrite" idea is so fucking wrong, I'm just dying to see how Wong tears you apart.

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Post by Edi »

Brianeyci, the way it works here is that only adults are entitled to welfare payments, as long as they fulfill a certain set of conditions. Kids don't qualify, and adult kids who live with their parents get only half (if that). Having underage kids earns a slight bonus (as obviously they have to be taken care of), but not another full entitlement. If your spouse/SO works (assumes ligving together), your benefits are adjusted for it (scaled system, the greater the earnings, the less benefits for you), and the maximum you can get is half the regular sum.

For example, I've been unemployed for several months, and living with my gf who makes less than €2000 a month, I get roughly €300 a month. The good thing is that I own my place, so maintenance payments and utilities come down to around somewhat less than that, but if I rented it, it'd be around €800-900+ a month for 61 square meters.

However, as interesting as this discussion over the implementations of social safety nets is, we've had it several times before, and I feel that one of more interesting points of the article is getting more or less ignored, and that is the religious mindset of regarding a social acceptance of safety net principles outside of religion as a bad thing. That part was the biggest eye-opener for me, especially in light of Mike's posts (in the strip club toy drive thread) about the fundies' constant need to send social messages of condemnation about everything that doesn't fit their narrow, puritanical sense of holier-than-thouism. Any thoughts on this?

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Post by Dahak »

Again a clear example of the different mind sets, that seperates Europeans and US Americans (for the most part).
Social welfare is a pillar of the state here and considered one of the state's main function to care for its citizens and support them when they are in need.
It is, in fact, enshrined in our constitution (covered in the whole "human dignity" thing...).
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