Article: The Dominance of Neoconservative Morality

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
brianeyci
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9815
Joined: 2004-09-26 05:36pm
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Post by brianeyci »

Before I continue, I'd like to say that I don't even have any idea how EI or welfare works in Canada. I was talking more about the "guaranteed income" and the idea that a person deserves a basic level of income no matter if he or she deserves/earns it as a fundamental principle of human rights. I was talking about some theoretical problems that come up when one tries to implement a "guaranteed income" plan. This is not welfare, or meeting certain certeria like having kids, not having a job, etc. If you are familiar with Canadian politics, this is the half-baked plan that Chretien was supposedly leaning towards to create his legacy (although he denied it later).
Edi wrote:the religious mindset of regarding a social acceptance of safety net principles outside of religion as a bad thing.
What dislike I have of fundies comes from reading Wong's pages and one muslim friend who I regard as brainwashed by fundies for hating Israelis. From my limited point of view it seems simple why religious groups would want to be associated with charity. Also, it seems simple why they would try to promote the converse. A imples B, or religious groups implies charity, does not necessarily mean B implies A, or charity implies religious groups, and it seems that banking on people's ignorance of logic so that you will get an "if and only if" is a good way to draw sympathy to your cause.

Brian
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

If you define "not starving" as "a nice nap", sure. Why is it you fucktards always resort to deceptive rhetorical language in order to make your point? Does it not occur to you that if your point doesn't sound good without these kinds of bullshit tactics, then maybe there's something wrong with it?
Have you even thought to look at my position? "Help those who help themselves" would sum it up nicely. WHen I refer to people "e joying a nice nap" I refer to those who stay on welfare indefinently and defeat the purpose of a safety net. WHich is to help people get back on their feet when they jave fallen on hard times. I see my point went straight over your head.
Wrong. The CONCEPTS of investment and sympathy are totally different, you blithering idiot. It's not just a wording issue.
And I aplogize for making myself look like a tard.

What school of ethics do you subscribe to? Obviously not utilitarianism, since this action will increase societal misery considerably. And obviously not Biblical ethics, since you are not a Christian. So what is it? Mine-mine-mine-ism?
Nice ad hominiem.

I subscribe to a combination of rights based ethics and utilitarianism.

You obviously subscribe to "deride anyone who wont give significant sums of their hard earned money to someone who wont even try to better their situation ism"

I never suggested fucking over everyone on welfare. But Jesus fucking christ cant we at least try to... oh, I dont know BALANCE the counterbalancing virtues of fairness and sympathy? I dont know, be sympathetic to those who actually deserve our sympathy?

And of course, YOU are the one who should be making this judgement for these children. I see.
Hmm, lets see... Lets look at this logically before getting all emotional.

If said welfare recipient has no qualms about leeching off the welfare system, and has no problem with a basic level of subsistance, with no drive for self-betterment, what sort of values will this child be taught by his/her/its parents? Oh wait... the same values. Now, is a standard of living in the long term, the best thing for a child? No it is not. WOuld the child be better off both in the short term, and in life, if placed in a financially secure, stable home? Yes.
Will said child be more likely to develop positive values and a work ethic that would make said child more likely to be a productive member of society who contributes to the pool of money that feeds his/her/its welfare recipient biological parents? Yes.


Are there problems with CPS in some states and municipalities? yes.
Do reforms need to be done? Yes
Will we need to have more caseworkers for followup etc? yes

Will there ever be a simple solution to this problem? No.
Thank you for validating my earlier statements about how libertarians are completely and utterly without sympathy. You can only "justify" welfare in your own mind as a form of "investment", and if you don't "get your money back", so to speak, then you withdraw your "investment".
Did I ever say it was comfortable? No. Nice strawman. Please, what sort of problems will my solution cause if properly implemented(fat chance without major restructuring of our welfare system and actualy funding to CPS. But hey, I am trying to find a solution that would work... which will, by defninition, never get implemented by politicians because it makes to much sense)

By all menas, mention a few of these problems so that I may see the flaw in my prposed solution, and disgard it if it is warranting.

Oh, and technically, my stance that welfare should exist at all precluded me from being a libertarian(yes I know, my economic stance keeps "flip flopping", and it can get confusing. But I am trying to find a place on that litle spectrum that actually works, and my positions will change until such a spot is found)

what kind of utilitarian justification can their be for supporting someone who wont get off their ass and actually try to better themselves(this does not include those on welfare who work, and merely cant make ends meet)

WHat is so wrong about helping those who help themselves Mike? WHy should we allow someone to be a net drain on society? Why shouldnt we tuurn up the economic heat on someone who refuses, flat out refuses to support themselves(not someone who is unable, or temporaily unable to do so due to circumstances beyond their control), and ween them off the federal dole by slowly reducing their welfare check amounts. Eventually, in order to SURVIVE they will be forced to look for work. WHat is so wrong with that?

SOrry Mike, but my sympathy ends when someone doesnt even make an attempt at self-sufficienty and basically spits in my face as I give them food.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
tharkûn
Tireless defender of wealthy businessmen
Posts: 2806
Joined: 2002-07-08 10:03pm

Post by tharkûn »

First Edi your article is very confused about American politics. Neoconservatives, historically, were once proponents of the welfare state but saw that the system "didn't work" and that government programs were being implemented with piss poor oversight and decision making was done based upon electoral politics. The neoconservatives actually don't mind a minimalist welfare state, so long as it is compotently run. As far as the civil rights movement, the neocons were staunch supporters.

Social issues don't define neoconservatism very well, and to the extent that they do the neocons are to the left of much of the Republican party. Neoconservatism was far more about the rise of of the "left" in American politics and drive to acheive detente with the USSR. Neocons, first and foremost, are about foreign policy.

Many fundies aren't against government safety nets. The first obvious example would be the black community which is far more fundementalist than America at large and far more supportive of the public safety net. An historical example would be the Puritan tradition of free public school.

Of those who oppose government safety nets there are a handful of major reasons why:
1. Religious charity is more cost effective. There are untold numbers of religious individuals who will make great sacrifices in order to provide charity to their fellow men. The government is simply not able to pay its professional civil servants anywhere near as little as people like Mother Theresa. The Mormon church can't marshal ludicrious amounts of free labor from volunteers amongst its congregations. It is very hard if not impossible for the government to be cost effective compared to religious charity.

This is also why numerous nominally religious conservatives back faith based charity, it is simply more "cost effective".

2. Government safety nets are viewed as indoctrination and vote bribery. Because the most often perceived "anti-religious" party supports safety nets then religious support of the nets themselves might be perceived as supporting the "anti-religious" planks of the democratic party. Many government programs, like say daycare, are mistrusted because the secular principles they operate under are viewed as attempted indoctrination. I.e. Johnny goes to daycare and one of the other children has two mommies, the government sponsored daycare will exhibit tolerance and acceptence to the family of the other child ... which eventually leads Johnny to become social liberal and accepting of all manner of "deviency".

3. The government, as an institution, is "anti-religious" ergo anything which gives the government more power over the populace is a bad thing.

The big reason that european style social safety nets never caught on the US falls mainly along two points:

"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery." Many people look at Europe and don't see vibrant thriving egalitarian countries, they see that Sweden is as poor as the poorest American states. They see higher unemployment and they see governments up to their eyeballs in debt. Much of this perception was created in the 70's and 80's where European socialism was hitting rock bottom.

"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in five years there'd be a shortage of sand". The Great Society was poorly run and numerous government programs when examined for actual results failed to perform as advertised. Many Americans expected to see vast improvements in the 60's and 70's when the safety net was rising, instead they witnessed the shocks of stagflation. Many people hold the view that in general the federal government will find a way to cock up whatever it touches and it is therefor desireable to keep federal involvement to a minimum.

Looking to religion to explain American antipathy to the welfare state is very shortsighted. There are a whole host of reasons why America doesn't follow in the footsteps of Europe.
Very funny, Scotty. Now beam down my clothes.
User avatar
Glocksman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7233
Joined: 2002-09-03 06:43pm
Location: Mr. Five by Five

Post by Glocksman »

I feel that one of more interesting points of the article is getting more or less ignored, and that is the religious mindset of regarding a social acceptance of safety net principles outside of religion as a bad thing. That part was the biggest eye-opener for me, especially in light of Mike's posts (in the strip club toy drive thread) about the fundies' constant need to send social messages of condemnation about everything that doesn't fit their narrow, puritanical sense of holier-than-thouism. Any thoughts on this?
As brianeyci stated, promoting the link between religion and charity is a good way to generate positive feelings about your cause and win converts.

As far as the strip club toy drive goes, these things come up every year and it seems to be the same thing: Owner collects toys (or coats or whatever) for kids and some group of religious nutters condemns it.

It'd be one thing if this was John Gotti attempting to sway a jury or something, but this is merely a group of bluenoses putting their views on scantily clad women ahead of the interests of a group of poor kids getting a little cheer in their lives.

You'll notice that the Baptist preacher quoted was in favor of the donations, and Southern Baptist is about as fundamentalist as you can get in the US and still be considered legally sane. :lol:

This is an old conflict in US society. Wasn't it Twain or Bierce who (paraphrasing) once said that a puritan is a person who lives in mortal fear that someone, somewhere, may be enjoying themselves?
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."- General Sir Charles Napier

Oderint dum metuant
User avatar
Marksist
Jedi Knight
Posts: 697
Joined: 2004-05-21 08:59am
Location: Gainesville, Florida

Post by Marksist »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:You obviously subscribe to "deride anyone who wont give significant sums of their hard earned money to someone who wont even try to better their situation ism"
How come everytime welfare comes up in a thread, you and the rest of the libertarian masturbators come into the thread and proclaim how there are vast amounts of people out there that just live off welfare and don't give a damn about their situation? And of course nobody ever provides evidence for their claims that so many people are abusing the system, well, besides the anecdotal "oh this one guy my cousin's friend's neighbor told me about that just lived off of the welfare money and bought drugs and cars with it."

So was just wondering if you have evidence that a large percentage of people who receive government assistance abuse the welfare system and don't "even try to better their situation?"
-Chris Marks
Justice League
They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety.
-Benjamin Franklin
Image
User avatar
Edi
Dragonlord
Dragonlord
Posts: 12461
Joined: 2002-07-11 12:27am
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Post by Edi »

tharkûn wrote:First Edi your article is very confused about American politics. Neoconservatives, historically, were once proponents of the welfare state but saw that the system "didn't work" and that government programs were being implemented with piss poor oversight and decision making was done based upon electoral politics. The neoconservatives actually don't mind a minimalist welfare state, so long as it is compotently run. As far as the civil rights movement, the neocons were staunch supporters.
Did you read the note about translating the term "uuskoservatiivi"? That's literal for neocon, but the term as used in the article also takes in the fundie strain of conservatism in its analysis, because the Finnish term is not as narrow a tag as "neocon" is in American politics. Translations sometimes run into these problems. If I'd used the term the "the new right wing", would that have altered your perception?
tharkûn wrote:Many fundies aren't against government safety nets. The first obvious example would be the black community which is far more fundementalist than America at large and far more supportive of the public safety net. An historical example would be the Puritan tradition of free public school.
tharkûn wrote:Of those who oppose government safety nets there are a handful of major reasons why:
1. Religious charity is more cost effective. There are untold numbers of religious individuals who will make great sacrifices in order to provide charity to their fellow men. The government is simply not able to pay its professional civil servants anywhere near as little as people like Mother Theresa. The Mormon church can't marshal ludicrious amounts of free labor from volunteers amongst its congregations. It is very hard if not impossible for the government to be cost effective compared to religious charity.

This is also why numerous nominally religious conservatives back faith based charity, it is simply more "cost effective".
That depends on how well the system is organized. Cost effectiveness must also take into account the issue of how many people the system can reach and how easily. And it is a bad idea to build a system on the assumption that there will always be such great amounts of religious charity available with the attendant free labor (people donating time, work, money etc). If you can set up a well planned centralized system, it doesn't much matter if it's the government or an NGO doing it.
tharkûn wrote:2. Government safety nets are viewed as indoctrination and vote bribery. Because the most often perceived "anti-religious" party supports safety nets then religious support of the nets themselves might be perceived as supporting the "anti-religious" planks of the democratic party.
In other words, if they are not allowed to push their religion on everyone else, all efforts toward the common good that do not also serve their proselytizing efforts (on government dime, no less) must be torpedoed. Gotcha.
tharkûn wrote:Many government programs, like say daycare, are mistrusted because the secular principles they operate under are viewed as attempted indoctrination. I.e. Johnny goes to daycare and one of the other children has two mommies, the government sponsored daycare will exhibit tolerance and acceptence to the family of the other child ... which eventually leads Johnny to become social liberal and accepting of all manner of "deviency".
See above, their mindset requires torpedoing everything that does not directly support their proselytizing.
tharkûn wrote:3. The government, as an institution, is "anti-religious" ergo anything which gives the government more power over the populace is a bad thing.
This is again nothing more than wanting a theocracy and trying to prevent everything that does not work toward that goal.
tharkûn wrote:The big reason that european style social safety nets never caught on the US falls mainly along two points:

"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery." Many people look at Europe and don't see vibrant thriving egalitarian countries, they see that Sweden is as poor as the poorest American states. They see higher unemployment and they see governments up to their eyeballs in debt. Much of this perception was created in the 70's and 80's where European socialism was hitting rock bottom.
Yes, how nice of them to use data 15+ years old. They could take a look at our current model, which is doing relatively fine (needs some tweaking yes, but it works so far), it torpedoes their argument completely.
tharkûn wrote:"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in five years there'd be a shortage of sand". The Great Society was poorly run and numerous government programs when examined for actual results failed to perform as advertised. Many Americans expected to see vast improvements in the 60's and 70's when the safety net was rising, instead they witnessed the shocks of stagflation. Many people hold the view that in general the federal government will find a way to cock up whatever it touches and it is therefor desireable to keep federal involvement to a minimum.
This is probably more or less true because of the way your system is set up. You need line item veto, a solid core of job-secure non-partisan (or career) civil servants working on making the legislation and a rigorous review to see that no pork gets in. Currently, that's a pipe dream, but it's largely how it works here, and the results are concise, usually unambiguous laws. Anybody who tries to get pork in gets shot down by everyone else, because it would (rightly) be seen as favoritism unless everyone got pork, and that is untenable.
tharkûn wrote:Looking to religion to explain American antipathy to the welfare state is very shortsighted. There are a whole host of reasons why America doesn't follow in the footsteps of Europe.
Most of the reasons you listed actually are exactly the ones specified by article to be rooted in religion, and by your own words they accomplish exactly what Mr. Helo states is the aim of the religious right.

Then there is the part about using confrontation and refusing any compromise, which is another line that has been ignored so far. Anybody want to take a stab at that? I'm liking how this thread is turning out, it's a pretty good discusion so far. :)

Edi
Warwolf Urban Combat Specialist

Why is it so goddamned hard to get little assholes like you to admit it when you fuck up? Is it pride? What gives you the right to have any pride?
–Darth Wong to vivftp

GOP message? Why don't they just come out of the closet: FASCISTS R' US –Patrick Degan

The GOP has a problem with anyone coming out of the closet. –18-till-I-die
User avatar
Illuminatus Primus
All Seeing Eye
Posts: 15774
Joined: 2002-10-12 02:52pm
Location: Gainesville, Florida, USA
Contact:

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Neoconservatism is not the Christian Right.
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish

"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.

The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
Image
User avatar
Edi
Dragonlord
Dragonlord
Posts: 12461
Joined: 2002-07-11 12:27am
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Post by Edi »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Neoconservatism is not the Christian Right.
Read the fucking translation disclaimer! :evil:
Warwolf Urban Combat Specialist

Why is it so goddamned hard to get little assholes like you to admit it when you fuck up? Is it pride? What gives you the right to have any pride?
–Darth Wong to vivftp

GOP message? Why don't they just come out of the closet: FASCISTS R' US –Patrick Degan

The GOP has a problem with anyone coming out of the closet. –18-till-I-die
User avatar
Boyish-Tigerlilly
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3225
Joined: 2004-05-22 04:47pm
Location: New Jersey (Why not Hawaii)
Contact:

Post by Boyish-Tigerlilly »

I think the problem is:

1. How do you get people to care about other people when it's not really in human nature to be generous?

Welfare is a good thing, but people really don't seem to give a shit unless it directly effects them.
User avatar
Illuminatus Primus
All Seeing Eye
Posts: 15774
Joined: 2002-10-12 02:52pm
Location: Gainesville, Florida, USA
Contact:

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Edi wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Neoconservatism is not the Christian Right.
Read the fucking translation disclaimer! :evil:
That's copout bullshit. One does not PRECISELY translate the term of "neoconservative" unless they mean to evoke - surprise - neoconservativism. Their inability to attach the reality to their translation does not make it less of a mistake.
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish

"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.

The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
Image
User avatar
Beowulf
The Patrician
Posts: 10619
Joined: 2002-07-04 01:18am
Location: 32ULV

Post by Beowulf »

Edi wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Neoconservatism is not the Christian Right.
Read the fucking translation disclaimer! :evil:
Then why the hell did you translate it as neoconservative?
"preemptive killing of cops might not be such a bad idea from a personal saftey[sic] standpoint..." --Keevan Colton
"There's a word for bias you can't see: Yours." -- William Saletan
User avatar
Elfdart
The Anti-Shep
Posts: 10692
Joined: 2004-04-28 11:32pm

Post by Elfdart »

This is not the first time neocons and fundies were confused. This is undestandable since (a) the interests of the two groups overlap and (b) they both came to prominence in the mid-1970s.

Neocons are ex-liberals, leftists, even Trotskyists who joined the Right, and their lackeys. There are several reasons (support for Likud, dislike of blacks/ homosexuals/ uppity women), but for most it was simply jackal-like opportunism. When Christopher Hitchens joined the Dark Side recently, Norman Finkelstein described the shameless fakery involved, proving once again that a demagogue is someone who says things he knows aren't true to people he believes are too stupid to notice. They knew there was going to be a backlash against liberalism and jumped ship. While this article is mainly about Hitchens, it describes his predecessors as well:

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/id138.htm

The "neocons" Edi describes are the Moral Majority/ Christian Coalition and other fundie fuckwads. Michael Lind rather accurately describes the match made in hell of fundies and neocons in Made In Texas. Neocons need the numbers of voters that the fundies supply while the neocons with PhDs can vouch (with tongue planted firmly in cheek) that these people aren't Jew-baiting, gay-bashing, black-hating misogynists. Honest.

The two are linked in another way and both with the whole argument over aid to the poor. Both have a psychopathic "fuck 'em" attitude toward the poor, weak and afflicted. If you're downtrodden, the neocons have no use for you, and at best the fundies think it's God's will. At worst, it's an opportunity for more victims -er, converts. Fundies support "faith-based" aid to the poor because it's a new source of cash and puts them in a position of power over others: "You want that sandwich, Mrs. Battered Wife w/ 3 Kids on the run from her husband? Praise Jesus -or else!"
User avatar
Illuminatus Primus
All Seeing Eye
Posts: 15774
Joined: 2002-10-12 02:52pm
Location: Gainesville, Florida, USA
Contact:

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

I didn't say the article's basic thesis was wrong and I didn't say that it was unheardof for fundies and neocons to be confused. Nevertheless, they misused the term here and suggests that American politics might not be best grasped across the lake.
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish

"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.

The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
Image
tharkûn
Tireless defender of wealthy businessmen
Posts: 2806
Joined: 2002-07-08 10:03pm

Post by tharkûn »

Edi:
Did you read the note about translating the term "uuskoservatiivi"? That's literal for neocon, but the term as used in the article also takes in the fundie strain of conservatism in its analysis, because the Finnish term is not as narrow a tag as "neocon" is in American politics. Translations sometimes run into these problems. If I'd used the term the "the new right wing", would that have altered your perception?
The "new right wing" in American politics is the neoconservative movement. The moral majority has consistently voted right (even when the Democrats were the rightwing party). The rise of neoconservatism is seperate from the rise of the moral majority type voting bloc.
That depends on how well the system is organized. Cost effectiveness must also take into account the issue of how many people the system can reach and how easily. And it is a bad idea to build a system on the assumption that there will always be such great amounts of religious charity available with the attendant free labor (people donating time, work, money etc). If you can set up a well planned centralized system, it doesn't much matter if it's the government or an NGO doing it.
This is America, there are well meaning religious folks in every town. Given that in excess of 80% of the population is Christian and a good portion of that quite fervant, odds are that numerous such people exist in any given location.

Well planned, yes I agree. Centralized I don't. A centralized system in the US would be the equivalent of Finland turning over all its social safety nets to Brussels. The overhead requirements, the inevitable porking of the budget, and the problem of making accurate decisions based on limited data make a decentralized approach superior in many cases (say at the state of metropolitan level).
In other words, if they are not allowed to push their religion on everyone else, all efforts toward the common good that do not also serve their proselytizing efforts (on government dime, no less) must be torpedoed. Gotcha.
To a degree. Anything which benefits a group who seeks to curtail their proselytizing efforts is not going to be well supported. Basically it comes down to the perception that Democrats oppose proselytization and Democrats support social safety nets. In their opposition to Democrats, social safety nets are collateral damage. In religious groups that trend heavily democratic, this opposition to social safety nets is not seen (at least as a collective bloc).
This is again nothing more than wanting a theocracy and trying to prevent everything that does not work toward that goal.
This is also the minority position, even among fundies, most people are against European style safety nets primarily for secular reasoning. Even those who do oppose them on religious grounds tend to so more out of politics than for wanting a theocracy.

They may want a theocracy, but that tends not to be their stated reason for opposition. A small minority, however, does make that their stated reason.
Yes, how nice of them to use data 15+ years old. They could take a look at our current model, which is doing relatively fine (needs some tweaking yes, but it works so far), it torpedoes their argument completely.
Data? You have got to be kidding me. Both sides of the socialism debate rely upon ancedotal evidence and only cherry picked figures are used if any at all. American views of European socialism were cemented 15 years ago simply because that was when the real policy discussions in the US were occuring and the electorate is of age to have made their impressions then.

Aside from all that even European data from today isn't all that compelling, a good opponent of socialism can recite a massive litany of facts and figures and a good proponent can do the same.
You need line item veto, a solid core of job-secure non-partisan (or career) civil servants working on making the legislation and a rigorous review to see that no pork gets in. Currently, that's a pipe dream, but it's largely how it works here, and the results are concise, usually unambiguous laws. Anybody who tries to get pork in gets shot down by everyone else, because it would (rightly) be seen as favoritism unless everyone got pork, and that is untenable.
The problem with entrusting the government to a mandarinate is that in the US the mandarinate is going to be enfused with a cross section of the populace. A majority of Americans supported GWB, a sizeable minority of Kerry supporters are fundies, etc. Hell the CIA is currently undergoing claims of partisanship that ring from both sides of the aisle.
Most of the reasons you listed actually are exactly the ones specified by article to be rooted in religion, and by your own words they accomplish exactly what Mr. Helo states is the aim of the religious right.
Mr. Helo needs to understand that the "religious right" in America is bloody huge. The big thing to remember is that it rarely moves as a monolithic bloc. Most of the time the black wing votes democrat, the hispanic portion is currently the margin of US politics, the Jewish and Muslim votes split off either way. Who do you think passed the Great Society? In the 60's you didn't have enough secularists in the country to get somethign like that through - you needed the fundy wing of American politics. Today the religious don't oppose social welfare out of religious grounds, they do so primarily because:
1. Socialism is viewed as less efficient than capitalism. They'd rather have an inequal sharing of blessing than an equal sharing of misery.
2. The federal government is incompotent. Every program the federal government has touched in this area has ended up bloated and underperforming.
3. Religious charity is more cost effective.

Virtually no one is against helping others simply because it undercuts the church. Hell you have Muslims, Mormons, Jews, and Hindus donating to Catholic charities.
Fundies support "faith-based" aid to the poor because it's a new source of cash and puts them in a position of power over others: "You want that sandwich, Mrs. Battered Wife w/ 3 Kids on the run from her husband? Praise Jesus -or else!"
Oh get real. The fundies already donate billions of dollars to charities, virtually never do any of those charities deny material comfort on grounds of religious practice. Right now these charities, from soup kitchens to free clinics, have unfettered control of billions of dollars worth of charity; they don't even begin to approach the "convert or starve" mentality you put forth.

As fun as I'm sure it is to view all opponents as comically evil and/or brain dead zombies; let's remember that if that were the case they:
1. Have more guns and more adherents than secularists in the military.
2. Would not be afraid to use them.
Very funny, Scotty. Now beam down my clothes.
User avatar
RedImperator
Roosevelt Republican
Posts: 16465
Joined: 2002-07-11 07:59pm
Location: Delaware
Contact:

Post by RedImperator »

It's really misleading to lump the Christian conservatives with the neoconservatives. Theirs is an alliance of convenience--the Christians don't give a rats ass about foreign policy, and the neocons are only interested in domestic policy so far as it supports their foreign policy. Dick Cheney is a prototype neocon and he's in favor of gay marriage.

Strangely enough, neoconservatism IS a moral foreign policy. Not as moral as internationalism, but one of its fundamental assmptions is that it's morally desireable to spread freedom and democracy around the world, at bayonet point if you have to. Now, neocons also think that supports America's best interests, and if you could spread democracy at bayonet point, they might be right. Of course, Marxism is a fundamentally moral system to: it's morally right for those who produce wealth to enjoy the fruits of it. The devil is in the application.

Contrast that to Realism, which basically says there is no morality in foreign policy, only the interests of nation states. A realist would say, "It doesn't matter how awful Hussein is. Having him in power is good for the United States because he's a stabilizing influence." A neocon would say (did say, in fact), "Removing Saddam Hussein and bringing freedom to the Iraqi people is a worthwile goal in and of itself".

Meanwhile, the conservative Christian interest in foreign policy basically stops at "can we send missionaries"? More active ones might actually favor internationalism and humanitarian intervention, because they feel it's morally wrong to let people suffer for the sake of foreign policy goals.
Image
Any city gets what it admires, will pay for, and, ultimately, deserves…We want and deserve tin-can architecture in a tinhorn culture. And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed.--Ada Louise Huxtable, "Farewell to Penn Station", New York Times editorial, 30 October 1963
X-Ray Blues
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

It's misleading to say that neo-cons and the Christian Right are the same thing, but it is NOT misleading to "lump them together" for the purposes of political discussion, because for all intents and purposes, they have aligned themselves into an Axis of Ideological Purity. Harping on the distinctions is pointless; they support one another and share a common enemy: liberalism (including secularism, which is apparently a good prescription for the Middle East but not for America).
Last edited by Darth Wong on 2004-12-14 04:02pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Edi
Dragonlord
Dragonlord
Posts: 12461
Joined: 2002-07-11 12:27am
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Post by Edi »

Tharkun, not enough disagreement with you to warrant another point by point exchange. Just one thing, though.
tharkûn wrote:
#Edi" wrote:Most of the reasons you listed actually are exactly the ones specified by article to be rooted in religion, and by your own words they accomplish exactly what Mr. Helo states is the aim of the religious right.
Mr. Helo needs to understand that the "religious right" in America is bloody huge. <snip>
I think he knows that quite well. Remember, this article was originally in Finnish, and meant for Finnish consumption, so it obviously could not go into great detail about the specific makeup of the American Christian right in the space allotted to it. A quick and somewhat generalizing look, yes, but most Finns are decidedly less aware of how American politics work than the SDnet contingent, so this would have been satisfactory for them. Any errors and inaccuracies with regard to the original message are attribuatble to my translation of it (e.g. the thing about how to translate "uuskonservatiivi" with all the Finnish connotations intact).

I wanted to see how the board would react to an outside viewpoint, because usually foreign articles that are linked are from the UK, and a minority from Australia, New Zealand and a few rare ones from elsewhere if there are translations. It's all well and good that our own media tell us how we are thought of elsewhere and what has appeared in foreign media, but there's no substitute for actually reading it firsthand.

Edi
Warwolf Urban Combat Specialist

Why is it so goddamned hard to get little assholes like you to admit it when you fuck up? Is it pride? What gives you the right to have any pride?
–Darth Wong to vivftp

GOP message? Why don't they just come out of the closet: FASCISTS R' US –Patrick Degan

The GOP has a problem with anyone coming out of the closet. –18-till-I-die
User avatar
RedImperator
Roosevelt Republican
Posts: 16465
Joined: 2002-07-11 07:59pm
Location: Delaware
Contact:

Post by RedImperator »

Darth Wong wrote:It's misleading to say that neo-cons and the Christian Right are the same thing, but it is NOT misleading to "lump them together" for the purposes of political discussion, because for all intents and purposes, they have aligned themselves into an Axis of Ideological Purity. Harping on the distinctions is pointless; they support one another and share a common enemy: liberalism (including secularism, which is apparently a good prescription for the Middle East but not for America).
I don't think that's particularly useful because they don't define "liberal" the same way. There's no particular reason why the Christians and the neocons are aligned at all, other than the fact that the Democratic party has been secularist and somewhere between realist and internationalist since the 1970's. Fox News and Rush Limbaugh carry both banners for the benefit of John Q. Red State, but other than President Bush himself, there aren't a lot of leaders from either camp who enthusiastically support the other. I don't think the Christians particuarly support the neocons at all--they support George W. Bush, and HE supports the neocons. The neocons likely see the Christians as a useful embarassment (for that matter, I suspect some of them see the President as one as well).

Why all this hair splitting? Because it matters in American domestic politics, which always has and always will drive American foreign policy. If the Christians turn on the neocons (some already have--read some of Pat Buchannon's scathing criticism of them sometime), they're done, which may well happen if 2008 rolls around and Iraq is still a bleeding ulcer. The Christians have a lot of momentum going and will likely keep it for the rest of the decade, depending on whether or not they bite off more than they can chew immediately or later, but the neocons are in trouble. The fact that their most important "allies" really couldn't give a flying fuck about them is a major weakness.
Image
Any city gets what it admires, will pay for, and, ultimately, deserves…We want and deserve tin-can architecture in a tinhorn culture. And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed.--Ada Louise Huxtable, "Farewell to Penn Station", New York Times editorial, 30 October 1963
X-Ray Blues
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

Red, you're assuming that people are actually smart enough to make decisions based on some kind of coherent ideology. The leaders of these movements, as crack-addled as they may be, are more intelligent than most of their followers, many of whom simultaneously fall into the redneck "my country, right or wrong" and "God-fearing nation" crowd. You hear them all the time, espousing the exact party lines of both movements you describe.

In other words, while you may consider them to be technically separate movements, they are often found coincident in the same individuals. And they are not as ideologically separated as one might think. Neo-conservatism, after all, has a stench very similar to that of the Pope's mission to convert the savages.

It's also worth noting that the article makes an interesting point about how both Neo-Cons and the Christian Right dismiss the importance of the outcome of an action in favour of its motivation, because this is another thing they share. It's OK to cause misery, death, and destruction if you think it's in a good cause. You don't even have to show how you saved more lives than you took; it's OK to use a completely abstract justification.
Last edited by Darth Wong on 2004-12-14 04:52pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Joe
Space Cowboy
Posts: 17314
Joined: 2002-08-22 09:58pm
Location: Wishing I was in Athens, GA

Post by Joe »

Red, Pat Buchanan is a hardcore isolationist. He's IIRC the only major politician of the last 20 years to seriously question whether or not the U.S. should have entered into WWII. Republicans are, by and large, either national-interest realists or neoconservatives, and the majority of them are national-interest realists. I doubt that even a small minority of committed Republicans share Buchanan's views on foreign policy, so it isn't really to accurate hold up Buchanan as an example of a Christian Republican "turning on" the neoconservatives. A better example would be someone like Pat Robertson, who as it turns out was never crazy about the Iraq war to begin with.
Image

BoTM / JL / MM / HAB / VRWC / Horseman

I'm studying for the CPA exam. Have a nice summer, and if you're down just sit back and realize that Joe is off somewhere, doing much worse than you are.
User avatar
Illuminatus Primus
All Seeing Eye
Posts: 15774
Joined: 2002-10-12 02:52pm
Location: Gainesville, Florida, USA
Contact:

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

I'm inclined to agree with Red - neocons, in the clownsuit of PNAC and elsewhere, had been pushing invade Iraq and massive American unilateralism since Clinton's terms.

But there was obviously very little broad-based American push for such things: it is only because of 9/11 that everyone could be persuaded on the bandwagon. On the other hand, Christian moralists had been out in force among the public since 1992 - look at what a spectacle and source of intense fury and fanaticism Clinton's sex scandals became.

There was nothing like the broadbase of personal ideology wringing its hands over lost morals in the American society with respect to foriegn policy and interventionist ideals.

The most obvious clue toward this is during the 2000 election campaign, George W. Bush campaigned publically against neoconservatism ("no more nation-building") and for Christian moralism ("I'll bring dignity back to the office."). He did bring the neocon poster boys along for his administration - Defense Department and NS Advisor, mostly (the conscious omission of the State Department and the CIA, etc., suggests again about the neocon power at this point) - but the major push here was in favor of such travesties as "faith-based initiatives" - a moralist position - with the neocons only managing to peddle the goal of force restructuring and missile defense. As the former counterterrorism czar noted, Bush's administration was actually less concerned with broad foriegn intervention than Clinton had been - until 9/11.

Only because of 9/11 could the neoconservatives risen to such a significant position as the other "pole" of Republican ideology to moralism. And anyone who hears about Iraq or watched the Presidential Debates knows which pole is much weaker.
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish

"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.

The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
Image
tharkûn
Tireless defender of wealthy businessmen
Posts: 2806
Joined: 2002-07-08 10:03pm

Post by tharkûn »

What some of you are forgetting when lumping the neocons in with the moral majority types is that it wasn't long ago that the neocons were working alongside a man named Clinton in places like Bosnia and Kossovo. The moral majority types don't buy the neocon intervention philosophy, the neocons willingness to work with France, the UN, or gasp William Jefferson Clinton is bile in the throats of the true beleiver. The neocons have no problem working with enlightened Islamicists, interventionists secularists, or atheist freemarketeers.

Frankly this alliance has all the markings of the old Reagan democrat/liberal democrat alliance. At times they make common cause, at others the majority position decries the willingness of their allies to "sell out" to the otherside.

For now the marriage of conveinence is working, I doubt it will last if the neocons continue to be a drag on the ticket.
Very funny, Scotty. Now beam down my clothes.
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Post by SirNitram »

While it's always useful to discuss the many heads of a hydra, or to discuss just how we got from Point A to Point B, for those of us living in the here and now, we now see a crude fusion of Neocons and Christian Rightists in power. And while those here are often running sufficient grey matter to distinguish the two, the average person votes on party lines.

For the time being, what we have is a strange kludge of NeoCon Unilateralism and Christian Right Moralism. What it seems to generate is, essentially, a Crusader outlook: Find those evil heathens and convert 'em, then they'll be like us! Think this is crazy, alarmist bullshit? Nope, it's just what the Administration claimed would happen.. We'd stride in, give 'em Democracy, and everything would be UberCool. Swap out Democracy and Christianity, and you see why I called it a Crusader outlook.

Will the centre hold? Dunno. But it's better to discuss the rammifications of it while it's here than deny it exists.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
RedImperator
Roosevelt Republican
Posts: 16465
Joined: 2002-07-11 07:59pm
Location: Delaware
Contact:

Post by RedImperator »

SirNitram wrote:While it's always useful to discuss the many heads of a hydra, or to discuss just how we got from Point A to Point B, for those of us living in the here and now, we now see a crude fusion of Neocons and Christian Rightists in power. And while those here are often running sufficient grey matter to distinguish the two, the average person votes on party lines.

For the time being, what we have is a strange kludge of NeoCon Unilateralism and Christian Right Moralism. What it seems to generate is, essentially, a Crusader outlook: Find those evil heathens and convert 'em, then they'll be like us! Think this is crazy, alarmist bullshit? Nope, it's just what the Administration claimed would happen.. We'd stride in, give 'em Democracy, and everything would be UberCool. Swap out Democracy and Christianity, and you see why I called it a Crusader outlook.

Will the centre hold? Dunno. But it's better to discuss the rammifications of it while it's here than deny it exists.
The end result is going to be the repudiation of neoconservatism as a school of foreign policy. Its underlying assumptions are plainly flawed, and the only time the Neocons got everything they wanted, the result was Iraq.

This will not affect the Christians in the least. They've survived allies imploding before and they will again. The Christians will eventually end up pushing too hard for a social agenda the majority of Americans really don't want, at the same time the rank and file becomes disillusioned by a leadership which can't deliver on its increasingly ambitious promises and becomes just as drunk on power and influence as their enemies. The Christians will slink back to Church like they did at the end of the Progressive era, and show up again some other day.
Image
Any city gets what it admires, will pay for, and, ultimately, deserves…We want and deserve tin-can architecture in a tinhorn culture. And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed.--Ada Louise Huxtable, "Farewell to Penn Station", New York Times editorial, 30 October 1963
X-Ray Blues
Post Reply