The New SW Canon

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2004-12-13 05:55pm

C.
Only the existence of a ship named Rand Ecliptic is G. Unless the author(s) got a straight description from Lucas ...

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-12-14 05:54am

Aaah, I see. Makes sense though, since that ship changed in form several times over the years. I think they stopped at Acclamator-esque warship now.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2004-12-14 06:36am

I have to correct myself. Not even the existence is EDIT: a fact (EDITED from: G), since it was only a dialog and as such, not as hard as the visual evidence.
What is G is that Biggs implied the existence of a ship named Rand Ecliptic and that ship was a frigate. (Unless Lucas said Foster (I think he wrote ANH novelization) that that ship was a freighter, or "frigate" can apply to a freighter.)

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-12-14 06:46am

No, that sounds weird: you're saying that something's only G Canon if they're actually seen in the films. Even things that are merely mentioned are only C Canon.

That don't seem right...

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-12-14 08:10am

Anything mentioned or seen in the movies are G. That´s Lucasfilm policy.

If we were to go by your definition, all the planets mentioned but not seen would be C and that just isn´t true.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2004-12-14 10:41am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:No, that sounds weird: you're saying that something's only G Canon if they're actually seen in the films. Even things that are merely mentioned are only C Canon.

That don't seem right...

No. It has nothing to do with the level system. I am saying that what is said in a dialog can be true or untrue, unlike the visual evidence. So, what is mentioned in a G level dialog can be a G level fact (if true), or not a fact at all (if untrue).

For example you cannot use as a real fact that Leia did not know about the plans in ANH.

drachefly · Post by **drachefly** » 2004-12-14 01:24pm

Any version of continuity-canon that includes Star Tours is on crack. Unfortunately, Lucasfilms has declared it is indeed C-level canon.

Take that as you will.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-12-14 03:36pm

How the hell do they explain the story?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-12-14 03:42pm

vakundok wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:No, that sounds weird: you're saying that something's only G Canon if they're actually seen in the films. Even things that are merely mentioned are only C Canon.

That don't seem right...
No. It has nothing to do with the level system. I am saying that what is said in a dialog can be true or untrue, unlike the visual evidence. So, what is mentioned in a G level dialog can be a G level fact (if true), or not a fact at all (if untrue).

For example you cannot use as a real fact that Leia did not know about the plans in ANH.

But using the the previous logic you used with Rand Ecliptic as an example, the planet Kessel may not actually exist, either.

You appear to be eliminating the consideration of context.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-12-14 04:27pm

Fuck Dark Horse. The novelization says he was on a freighter, the EU story originally put him on a freighter, and now that hatfucking editor made one story that puts him moronically as the First Mate of a frigate at the rank of Midshipman.

Well that's two sources versus one source. Fuck DHC. As Publius suggested, we should interpet the minority biased toward the majority and consider the Errant Venture an armed merchantman, and First Mate Darklighter an officer in the merchant marine.

Fuck DHC.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2004-12-14 05:04pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:But using the the previous logic you used with Rand Ecliptic as an example, the planet Kessel may not actually exist, either.

Yes. May not, but see below.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:You appear to be eliminating the consideration of context.

Both of the two things mentioned can be true or untrue.
As I remember, when Threepio mentioned Kessel, Artoo accepted that, so we can trust that there was a place named Kessel (where spice was mined). There is no such reinforcement for the Rand Ecliptic.

Well, as I remember, actually, there is. I think it was mentioned even in the screenplay that Biggs weared an uniform. Since it still depends on a single person, the existence of Kessel is more trustable than the existence of the Rand Ecliptic.

Illuminatus Primus: As I know, the screenplay also calls it a frigate and it has (according to Tasty Taste) a higher (basic) level.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-12-14 05:08pm

Sorry, Vak, but I can't accept that as nothing more than a complete load of crap. You're basically just making up your own guidelines.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-12-14 08:18pm

Look, its the creation of GL - therefore Kessel exists and there are spice mines there - G canon. Rand Ecliptic is not in the film and C only.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-12-15 02:23am

Actually, Rand Ecliptic is on the same level as Rothana. Both were invented by Lucas and none were mentioned in any movie. (One is from a cut-scene, the other from a discussion pertaining to a fact-book.) Yet because they are both made by him and do not contradict the movies themselves, they are G-canon.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2004-12-15 03:46am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Look, its the creation of GL - therefore Kessel exists and there are spice mines there - G canon. Rand Ecliptic is not in the film and C only.

This is what Spanky thought I had suggested. No. [The existence of the] Rand Ecliptic is [implied] in the screenplay, so, it is G (a G level fact or a G level misinformation) and cannot be C at all.
As I said, it is not about G or C it is only about that things mentioned in a dialog are less trustable than things seen or described.

VT-16: I don't think so. It seems that in this policy, Lucas is some kind of god. Rothana was stated by that god himself, while the Rand Ecliptic was stated by a, well, puppet of that god.
Imagine: Lucas can say that there was no Rand Ecliptic and Biggs actually served on the Justice corvette, it will only result that he lied to Luke, but will not create a clear contradiction (with G level material). But if he says that it was not Rothana, it will create a clear contradiction. This is the difference between a thing mentioned in a dialog and a thing described.

Spanky: Well, yes. This is a discussion to find the most acceptable interpretation, which can or cannot be the same as mine. I am not against to use (unsupported) things from dialogs as facts, I am only want to point out that they can be untrue, so seen or described things have higher values. For example I (on my own) would declare contradicted G level material as S or even N canon, but official sources don't do that.

There is an other thing to consider: The Rand Ecliptic was mentioned but not supported on G level. Since C level sources support that, we can easily consider it to be a supported evidence (the existence, not the C level description).

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-12-15 03:53am

I'm not even going bother trying to discuss this crap with you anymore. Your whole true/untrue removal of context bullshit is so blindingly idiotic that I can't even deal with it. You're just making things so worthlessly over-complicated for no realistic reason whatsoever.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-12-15 06:41am

while the Rand Ecliptic was stated by a, well, puppet of that god.

You gotta give me some of what you´re smoking there, pal. @__@

All I see is Biggs (or more exact, the actor playing Biggs) saying lines Lucas wrote. There´s references to a planet Bestine and the spaceship Rand Ecliptic. That´s it, no interpretation nessecary. These names were thought up by George Lucas, and I´m pretty sure he didn´t mean for them to be interpreted as made up by Biggs.

Why would he lie about which planet he visited or which spaceship he was going to serve on? It makes no sense since he has already stated his intention to defect.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2004-12-15 07:50am

VT-16 wrote:These names were thought up by George Lucas, and I´m pretty sure he didn´t mean for them to be interpreted as made up by Biggs.

The important is the "I'm pretty sure". It is already an interpretation.

But Spanky is right, let's get this over. It leads nowhere, and it is really just a nitpicking nuisance.
(- Rand Ecliptic was mentioned in the screenplay, so its existence is G level canon.
- But it was only a dialog, and Biggs could lie!
- Do you have any evidence, that he lied?
- No.
- Then we do not have a reason not to trust in his words, so, the existence of the Rand Ecliptic is G level canon.)

I am horrified to see, and beg your pardon about what my nitpicking has resulted.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-12-15 09:12am

The important is the "I'm pretty sure". It is already an interpretation.

Please. You started this "interpretation"-business, ya know.

(- Rand Ecliptic was mentioned in the screenplay, so its existence is G level canon.
- But it was only a dialog, and Biggs could lie!
- Do you have any evidence, that he lied?
- No.
- Then we do not have a reason not to trust in his words, so, the existence of the Rand Ecliptic is G level canon.)

Finally we´re getting somewhere.

I am horrified to see, and beg your pardon about what my nitpicking has resulted.

*Waves magic wand*

You´re excused.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-12-15 04:30pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Fuck Dark Horse. The novelization says he was on a freighter, the EU story originally put him on a freighter, and now that hatfucking editor made one story that puts him moronically as the First Mate of a frigate at the rank of Midshipman.

Well that's two sources versus one source. Fuck DHC. As Publius suggested, we should interpet the minority biased toward the majority and consider the Errant Venture an armed merchantman, and First Mate Darklighter an officer in the merchant marine.

Fuck DHC.

Three sources against one; the radio dramatization also names the Rand Ecliptic as a freighter, unless I'm much mistaken. *Note to self: Listen to the radio plays over Christmas break.*

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-12-15 05:10pm

But if a new C-canon source contradicts older C-canon sources, doesn´t the new one apply? Like newer versions of the movies?

I like the Rand Ecliptic as an Acclamator-esque frigate better than just a freighter....

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-12-15 06:05pm

Why? Its stupid as fuck. How can a midshipman fresh out of the academy be the first mate on a 700 meter star frigate.

I understand these are the kind of abortions concieved in the mind of Randy "Sheepfucker" Stradley, but still.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-12-15 06:08pm

I don't really like it, either. It overinflates Bigg's importance.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-12-16 04:46am

How can a midshipman fresh out of the academy be the first mate on a 700 meter star frigate.

Well, it could add to the impressive size and scale of the Imperial fleet, if they can afford to use a frigate as a starting point for people fresh out of academy.

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2004-12-16 07:49pm

VT-16 wrote:I like the Rand Ecliptic as an Acclamator-esque frigate better than just a freighter....

Minor nitpick....proper scaling has revealed the the Rand Ecliptic is actually more than 2 kilometers long. It seems that Saxton chose not to scale it, and rather go with its appearance (strangely out of character, but chalk it up to his busy schedual

). Sure it LOOKS like an Acclamator, but it's much, much bigger.