How one Star Trek ship could take down an ISD's Shields

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How one Star Trek ship could take down an ISD's Shields

Post by BlkbrryTheGreat »

I was reading through some of the information on Mike's technology when I put 2 and 2 together and came to the realization that is was possible for a modified Star Trek ship to take down an ISD's shields. What lead me to this conclusion was the following information taken from the Empire Shield's page
this means that the energy capacity of a Star Destroyer's shields is between 1.4E19 and 9E20 joules, so 1E20 joules (24,000 megatons) is a reasonable estimate.
and this information taken from the Federation Power Generation page.
Therefore, the storage density of antideuterium aboard a Starfleet vessel is less than or equal to 160 kg/m³, which is the density of solid (but not metallic) deuterium. At this density, the ship's 3000 m³ storage tanks should hold roughly 480 tons of anti-deuterium.
and
The theoretical energy density of the matter/antimatter reaction is 9E16 J/kg, so an upper limit for their energy yield is roughly 8.6E22 joules (roughly 900 TW average, over three years). This is more than eighty times as large as the 1E21 joule energy yield estimated for the total annihilation of the ship's entire fuel supply in its primary self-destruct sequence (TM pg. 141). The self-destruct sequence occurs in the warp core; the ship simply dumps its entire matter/antimatter storage into its warp core at once, so the limited yield of the self-destruct sequence may suggest poor efficiency for the warp core, perhaps as low as 1.3% (although Federation cultists are loathe to give up their ridiculous and unscientific 100% efficiency assumptions). It is possible that the efficiency of the self-destruct is so low precisely because so much fuel is being dumped into the warp core at once, but this means that we can establish that the range of efficiency is somewhere above 1.3% and somewhere below 100%.
At first appearance the energy generated from the self destruct of the 480 tons of anti-matter in the primary self-destruct sequence of a GCS is enough to take down the shields of a ISD (even with the low 1.3% reaction rate). However, we must consider the fact that even in an ideal detonating position no more then half of this energy will reach the ISD. Knowing this we can say that if a ship were modified to carry 960-1440 tons of anti-matter (in the same density as that found on a GCS) then it could take down an ISD's shields (assuming it could get through the fighter escorts and turbolaser fire). If the reaction rate were increased then the amount of anti-matter needed to achieve this feat would be signifigantly less or more damage would be caused by the same amount of anti-matter. After the shields are taken down it would be wise to repeat this strategy with more ship/s in an attempt to keep the ISD's shields down and destroy the ISD. How effective these secondary strikes would be is unknown; I do not know how strong the ISD's actual armor is, nor do I know where within the hull the shield generators are located. However, since Mike estimated the broadside of an ISD i'm going to go out on a limb and say that this sort of detonation would cause damage, perhaps even signifigant damage, to an ISD.
Characteristics of offensive weaponry. An ISD1 can unleash more than 6E19 joules (14,000 megatons) of energy with a full broadside.
It should be noted however, that even if the Federation, or more likely the Klingons, used this tactic and managed to achieve a 2 to 1 kill ratio against the ISD's (which is so improbable that the chances of this happening are practically zero) they would be no where close to winning the war. The Empires signifigant reasource advantage would still win the day for them. Finally, it should be noted that ST shields are very weak in comparision with SW weapons, and that it would be difficult at best for a ST ship to get close enough to pull off this tactic.
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Post by data_link »

Hey guys, we got a n00b.

POKE!
data_link has resigned from the board after proving himself to be a relentless strawman-using asshole in this thread and being too much of a pussy to deal with the inevitable flames. Buh-bye.
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Post by Isolder74 »

data_link wrote:Hey guys, we got a n00b.

POKE!
Spoke by one with experince :lol:

actually the guy has some very good points. This is assuming the fireship can make it to the ISD
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Post by Alan Bolte »

So, the Fed's new tactic is:
RAM THEM UNTIL...ERR...AND HOPE THEY GIVE UP!
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Post by D.Turtle »

Some notes:
1) Check the "Current SW Low End Calculations" and the "SW Current Mid Range Calculations" threads for some more accurate numbers on the shield strength of an ISD.

2) In those same threads you will also find out the proper strength of the ISDs weapons(i.e. Medium Turbolasers have at least 200GT of explosive power)

3) 1 Ton of TNT is equal to 4 × 10E9 Joules. That would mean, that the 1E21 Joules is equal to 2.5E10 tons of TNT or 25 Gigatons. One single Medium Turbolaser is at least 200GT. (Hope I got that calculation correct ...)
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Post by Ghost Rider »

Well at least at the end he admits the tactic is near hopeless.

and yes 200GT is the correct(AoTC:ICS) for the Medium Turbolasers.
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Post by Vendetta »

Actually, given the damage done by the asteroid collsion in ESB, ramming attacks are probably the Federation's best bet...
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Post by Mr Bean »

Actually, given the damage done by the asteroid collsion in ESB, ramming attacks are probably the Federation's best bet...
Acutal according to TESB, Thier best bet is to hope that the Empire wanders into an astroid field and lowers thier shields

(You can communcate via Subspace or Hyperwavce long range with the shields up as the are multi-dementional)

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Post by Sparkticus »

I think the Federation's best bet would be to get a few of those warp probes (ie. cut down torps with sensors instead of explosives) and jsut set them to go collision course with the target. Hey if the Fed's have half decent guidance packages, they might even hit. They would do considerable damage impacting at say 0.95C. Just as close to light speed as possible without breeching it, that way relativistic effects would amplify it's mass, right?
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Post by Darth Yoshi »

Star Trek uses mass-lightening fields to achieve relativistic speeds. As such, unless you cut the field right before impact, you won't have a lot of mass to damage the ISD with.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Not a valid tactic. If you suddenly add more mass to an object even at constant speed, the inertia of that matter will lower the speed. It would be as if expecting a pebble thrown at an asteroid at 100 kmph and expecting the asteroid to fly away at that speed. Cutting the mass-lightening fields would drag the Trek ship to a ginding halt.
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Post by Cpt_Frank »

Also don't forget that the Executor tore through 3 unshielded ISDs during an ill-led exit of hyperspace, it collided at 0.9c, yet the shields were holding.
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Post by Lord Poe »

Yet again, another modified Trek tactic..

But it does have merit. One section of shields could be taken down in a vital area, and before the shields could be brought back up, there would have to be a second attack on the unshielded portion of the ship. Say, the shield generators.

In "Dark Force Rising" Han Solo sent a pre-Clone Wars dreadnaught full throttle into a Star Destroyer which was being blasted (since it entered the battle) by the ion cannons of three other dreadnaughts.
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Post by CmdrWilkens »

Vendetta wrote:Actually, given the damage done by the asteroid collsion in ESB, ramming attacks are probably the Federation's best bet...
The ISD's themselves suffered very little damage. The famous "destruction" sequence doesn't really kill the ISD (the tower is still there) and its shields were down so we know that the armor on those suckers can take quite a bit of a beating by themselves.
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Post by Vertigo1 »

CmdrWilkens wrote:The ISD's themselves suffered very little damage. The famous "destruction" sequence doesn't really kill the ISD (the tower is still there) and its shields were down so we know that the armor on those suckers can take quite a bit of a beating by themselves.
Actually, we don't know if its still there or not. Its IMPLIED that it was destroyed, but we don't see the final results. The only thing we know is when the rock hits, the camera switches to a conversation which shows the CO throwing up his arms to cover his face (reflex) and the transmission is severed. Thats enough to SUGGEST that the bridge took quite a beating even if it wasn't destroyed.

I've got a vid capture, courtesy of "CaptainSheridan" which shows precisely what I said. However, if there is other evidence to suggest the tower is still there, then I'll take that into consideration.
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Post by SPOOFE »

The only thing we know is when the rock hits, the camera switches to a conversation which shows the CO throwing up his arms to cover his face (reflex) and the transmission is severed. Thats enough to SUGGEST that the bridge took quite a beating even if it wasn't destroyed.
Actually, it's enough for us to conclude that the tower wasn't destroyed. If it had been, we would have seen the CO get sucked out of view of the holoprojector before the transmission ended, from either the concussive blast of the asteroid hitting the tower, or from the suction of vacuum.

Since we did not see this, we must conclude that the damage to the ISD wasn't fatal.
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Post by CmdrWilkens »

Vertigo1 wrote:
CmdrWilkens wrote:The ISD's themselves suffered very little damage. The famous "destruction" sequence doesn't really kill the ISD (the tower is still there) and its shields were down so we know that the armor on those suckers can take quite a bit of a beating by themselves.
Actually, we don't know if its still there or not. Its IMPLIED that it was destroyed, but we don't see the final results. The only thing we know is when the rock hits, the camera switches to a conversation which shows the CO throwing up his arms to cover his face (reflex) and the transmission is severed. Thats enough to SUGGEST that the bridge took quite a beating even if it wasn't destroyed.

I've got a vid capture, courtesy of "CaptainSheridan" which shows precisely what I said. However, if there is other evidence to suggest the tower is still there, then I'll take that into consideration.
You can still see the outline of the tower through the debris cloud moving against the background of the Executor.
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So essentially, Starfleet goes kamikaze

Post by Patrick Degan »

The problem of course will be getting through overlapping fields of turbolaser fire and what happens when Starfleet runs out of ships.
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Post by consequences »

Going to beat a dead horse here, and say that Starfleet getting phase cloaks in production is their best bet to get ramming ships through. Even if this won't go through the shields, it will at least ensure the vessel reaches the target BEFORE it explodes. And the ship would be fully automated, so those of you waiting with the nerve gas argument can keep quiet.
Getting the phase cloak into full-scale production might be beyond Starfleet's capabilities though.
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Post by CmdrWilkens »

consequences wrote:Going to beat a dead horse here, and say that Starfleet getting phase cloaks in production is their best bet to get ramming ships through. Even if this won't go through the shields, it will at least ensure the vessel reaches the target BEFORE it explodes. And the ship would be fully automated, so those of you waiting with the nerve gas argument can keep quiet.
Getting the phase cloak into full-scale production might be beyond Starfleet's capabilities though.
Its lost technology, they had one working model that doesn't exist anymore and it was part of a super-black project that probably isn't even known to most of the higher command authorities in Starfleet.
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Post by jegs2 »

So if an ISD just sits there and plays target, while never engaging the Fed ship with a single weapon system or bothering to move out of the way, then the Fed ship could bring it down .... okay
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Post by Lord Poe »

Its lost technology, they had one working model that doesn't exist anymore and it was part of a super-black project that probably isn't even known to most of the higher command authorities in Starfleet.
Actually, the E-D recovered it. I don't know if they had to turn it over to the Romulans, though.
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Post by Howedar »

I would expect that it was blown to bits with high-ranking Romulans observing. There's no reason that the Federation would hand over the advanced tech.
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Post by Lord Poe »

Howedar wrote:I would expect that it was blown to bits with high-ranking Romulans observing. There's no reason that the Federation would hand over the advanced tech.
You forget, Picard is a PC fucking idiot. He decloaked deliberately in front of the Klingons because he wanted to hoor the treaty and reveal the illegal cloak. The Romulans wouldn't have let him leave with it.
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Post by consequences »

This is why their building it would be a massive pain in the ass, and probably not possible in the short term. However, if they could build it once, their is no real reason they couldn't mount a research effort of a couple of years or more to regain the capability.
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