San Francisco to ban guns?

[Sea Skimmer]

The only thing it would stop, were SCOTUS to have a fit of temporary insanity, is legal handgun ownership. So suddenly the guns are all in the hands of the criminal element. Brilliant, Holmes.

As I recall the Supreme Court has already ruled at least once on the issue of individual towns, cities ect... banning hand guns and found it to be legal. But reversals are always possibul if the issue became high profile enough to reach the court again.

Amusing considering the absolute best home defense weapon is a shotgun.

Home defence is hardly the only use for handguns. They have many more, and many of those uses cannot be fullfilled by a long weapon like a shotgun or rifle. Concealed Carry being the biggest example. Though I'm all for it being iegal to openly carry a rifle or shotgun on your person.

[Keevan_Colton]

I want guns! I want guns!
Guns make me safe!
Guns are good!
I want guns! I want guns!

Concealed carry, what a wonderfully retarded idea that is too...lets carry hidden guns about with us...incase we see a crime so we can execute the perp on the spot.

Every single fucking argument for "self defense" with handguns always turns out to be really "summary execution" rather than self defense.

[Petrosjko]

I want guns! I want guns!
Guns make me safe!
Guns are good!
I want guns! I want guns!

Concealed carry, what a wonderfully retarded idea that is too...lets carry hidden guns about with us...incase we see a crime so we can execute the perp on the spot.

Every single fucking argument for "self defense" with handguns always turns out to be really "summary execution" rather than self defense.

Bullshit. Quite often the display of the weapon serves to deter the would-be perpetrator from the commission of their crime.

Y'know what? It's not really much of an issue for me personally. I'm a big guy, and I don't look like an easy mark. But I have known plenty of women who aren't so large, who have had real-life problems and carry for that very reason, and people like you would rather see them disarmed and made into easy victims for scumbags. It's sickening.

The argument for concealed carry isn't about a guy like say, me, wandering about and suddenly spotting a crime in action and going "Oh! I'll be a hero and save the day!" BANG BANG BANG.

In fact, most concealed carry instructors I have met teach specifically the opposite... you don't come in shooting because you don't know the fucking situation. It was a point of goddamned emphasis at the class I took, for damn sure.

It's so the first person on the damned scene has a fighting chance against a predator who has the advantage of picking their prey, usually on the basis of said prey being smaller and isolated.

And the majority of gunowners I know would go to great lengths to avoid having to kill somebody if at all possibly. We're not all bloodthirsty, triggerhappy lunatics lusting after a chance to kill people, so you can spare us the generalization.

[Glocksman]

Every single fucking argument for "self defense" with handguns always turns out to be really "summary execution" rather than self defense.

The only way a criminal is going to get hit with lethal force from me in an encounter is if he threatens me with lethal force and has both the means and ability to carry out that threat.

At that point, it's legally and morally self defense when I draw my 9mm or .357 Magnum as I have been threatened with serious bodily injury or death by someone who can carry the threat out.

What happens next is solely up to the criminal.

If he runs, great. I don't have to shoot him.

If he thinks I'm bluffing, he'll find out the hard way that I'm not.

If a criminal merely threatens me with less than lethal force, he'll get a faceful of non-lethal pepper spray for his trouble.


What's your solution?

Meekly hand over your wallet and pray he doesn't hurt you?
Meet a threat of lethal force with nonlethal force?

[Justforfun000]

But the more guns are around, the more likely they will be in USE. Can't they seriously crack down enough to systematically remove handguns from all criminal elements?

I have never truly understood this, because Shouldn't the government be able to

A) Prevent imports into the country of illegal weapons? They ARE metal, so it should be fairly simple to detect.

B) Keep sweeping through criminal areas that are reporting handgun use and basically follow the same line of thought as the "terrorist act" enabling police to search and seize to locate and confiscate all types of these weapons?

You would think if it was seriously mandated as a priority number one problem to remove all of these from the hands of people other than police officers, then they could do so.

We are not allowed any hangduns here in Canada, and the statistics on gun related crime are FAR lower than the States, even taking into account population differences. I've heard this for many years. So obviously the ban on them is contributing to this.

[Justforfun000]

The issue is aggravating, because part of me strongly feels the right to self defense too. I mean, even in my younger teenage years, why was it fair to have to let a bully beat me up because he was 50 pounds heavier and a better fighter? Why shouldn't I have been able to have something like a TASER (if they existed then) to prevent it?

In one way it seems completely unfair for them to prevent you from having tools to "even up" the fight. How moral is it to say "tough, he's bigger and stronger so you're going to go down. But don't worry, AFTER you can charge him and sue him too". What if you don't want to get beaten in the FIRST place?

So from that perspective I can certainly see the desire for the guns. Especially when you extrapolate it to a life and death situation.

[RedImperator]

Whatever you feel about this, this is not going to be helpful for the national Democratic party at all. This is a position that not only gets no traction outside of liberal enclaves, it actively infuriates moderate Republicans and conservative leaning Democrats. The Democrats should abandon gun control as an issue entirely, frankly. It's only winning them votes in places that will vote Republican when hell freezes over anyway.

[weemadando]

Goddamn it, I hate to say it - but you Americans really are just fucking nuts sometimes.

"They want to take our guns!"

"Without our guns we'll be helpless before the criminal hordes!"

"The lefties want my guns!"

"Guns only kill bad people. Or kill good people when bad people use them. But guns aren't bad. No no no. People AND guns are bad. But me - I'm good! AHahahahhaha!!!!!"

"Citizens with guns = less crime. Citizens without guns = crime wave."

I'm sorry, but you seriously need to have a look at your national psyche. In the UK at the moment there are 3 times as many violent incidents involving knives than there are guns. Should the UK repeal its firearms legislation so that the good citizens can defend themselves against knife-wielding assailants?

Give gun CONTROL a try. Its not the same thing as a ban. No doubt San Francisco will still allow ownership of handguns for those who are registered sporting shooters or similar, much like Australia. Get over your insane devotion to black powder and drag your nation into the modern world where you don't have to fight back the perceived Indian hordes every day when you get home from work.

Guns aren't bad. People aren't bad. But America's combination of the two seems to be nearly ALL bad.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I want guns! I want guns!
Guns make me safe!
Guns are good!
I want guns! I want guns!

Concealed carry, what a wonderfully retarded idea that is too...lets carry hidden guns about with us...incase we see a crime so we can execute the perp on the spot.

Every single fucking argument for "self defense" with handguns always turns out to be really "summary execution" rather than self defense.

I in fact carry a firearm under a concealed carry permit, and am quite glad to do so, as there is considerable evidence showing that carrying a weapon under a concealed carry permit does improve your chances of survival when being the victim of a crime, and moreover, states with concealed carry permits generally have reduced crime rates.

Quite simply, the one thing which would make me fight the government would certainly be the banning of firearms.

Perhaps it is simply a remnant of the revolutionary foundation of our state (I note that France has some of the highest gun ownership rates on the continent, and their modern foundation was also by violent revolution). But Americans regard the possession of firearms as an absolutely fundamental component of our rights, and that is not going to change anytime soon.

[Sea Skimmer]

But the more guns are around, the more likely they will be in USE. Can't they seriously crack down enough to systematically remove handguns from all criminal elements?

No, espically not with a ban merely within a city. Just look at Japan, gun laws so strict they hand counted (multipul times) every round of ammo Olympic shooters brought into the country. Yet gangs in the country run around with more automatic weapons then's typical in US crimimal groups. Part of that is the proxmity of the country to North Korea, China and Russia, but then there are plenty of guns in Central and South American countries too.


And of course, and just if not more importantly, criminals retain access to a vast number of other potential weapons knives and baseball bats. But those weapons are far less effective and pratical when used and carried for personal protection. If two people with guns go up against each other, they are basicalyl at least equal. If a big man robs a small one with a baseball bat, the big guy has a massive advantage. But not many law abiding small guys are going to be able to constantly travel around with a baseball bat at a hand.

[aerius]

I have never truly understood this, because Shouldn't the government be able to

A) Prevent imports into the country of illegal weapons? They ARE metal, so it should be fairly simple to detect.

Having worked in several areas of Customs, the answer is no, or rather NO CHANCE IN HELL. They can be smuggled in by the truckload on container ships via the docks, as there is no way to check all the tens to hundreds of thousands of containers that pass through every day. Unless of course you want to completely cripple trade & the economy.

B) Keep sweeping through criminal areas that are reporting handgun use and basically follow the same line of thought as the "terrorist act" enabling police to search and seize to locate and confiscate all types of these weapons?

Sure, if the have the manpower to cordon off an a few city blocks at once and then do a door to door search of every single building.

We are not allowed any hangduns here in Canada, and the statistics on gun related crime are FAR lower than the States, even taking into account population differences. I've heard this for many years. So obviously the ban on them is contributing to this.

Complete bullshit. We have basically the same firearms laws as the US, minus concealed carry.

[Sea Skimmer]

Having worked in several areas of Customs, the answer is no, or rather NO CHANCE IN HELL. They can be smuggled in by the truckload on container ships via the docks, as there is no way to check all the tens to hundreds of thousands of containers that pass through every day. Unless of course you want to completely cripple trade & the economy.

Not to mention the issue of that thread we recently had, concerning a news article in which an old man built a functional belt fed machine gun out of a drill. Building guns is easy as shit, and the demand for them would easily exist to keep the ATF running around shutting down thousands of illegal gunsmithing shops for decades.

[Alyrium Denryle]

I want guns! I want guns!
Guns make me safe!
Guns are good!
I want guns! I want guns!

Concealed carry, what a wonderfully retarded idea that is too...lets carry hidden guns about with us...incase we see a crime so we can execute the perp on the spot.

Every single fucking argument for "self defense" with handguns always turns out to be really "summary execution" rather than self defense.

Bullshit. The possibility of a target being armed serves as a deterant, if the assailant isnt sure if you are armed, he will think twice before trying to mug you at knife/gun/pointed stick point.

Try the google, search fro COcealed carry and how it correlates with crime rate

[Keevan_Colton]

I want guns! I want guns!
Guns make me safe!
Guns are good!
I want guns! I want guns!

Concealed carry, what a wonderfully retarded idea that is too...lets carry hidden guns about with us...incase we see a crime so we can execute the perp on the spot.

Every single fucking argument for "self defense" with handguns always turns out to be really "summary execution" rather than self defense.

Bullshit. The possibility of a target being armed serves as a deterant, if the assailant isnt sure if you are armed, he will think twice before trying to mug you at knife/gun/pointed stick point.

Try the google, search fro COcealed carry and how it correlates with crime rate

No, the assailant is more likely to blow your brains out when you reach for your wallet/gun and then take it.

If someone has a gun on you, you cant reach for yours...if they dont have a gun on you, then it isnt self defense, it's summary execution.

Frankly you yanks are fucking insane.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Study that proves you wrong

and another

and one more

Jesus this is far to easy.

[Sea Skimmer]

No, the assailant is more likely to blow your brains out when you reach for your wallet/gun and then take it.

If someone has a gun on you, you cant reach for yours...if they dont have a gun on you, then it isnt self defense, it's summary execution.

Right, because a human life cannot be threatened with anything but a gun.

[Alyeska]

As an owner of handguns in the Bay Area, I say good riddance and I hope this extends to the greater California. I'm all for rifle ownership, but I see no compelling public need for handgun ownership and a great deal of need to snuff it out.

I see no compelling public need for vehicles that travel faster then the posted speed limit.
I see no compelling public need for stun guns.
I see no compelling public need for pepper spray.
I see no compelling public need for model rocketry.
I see no compelling public need for extreme sports.
I see no compelling public need for rifle ownership.

Your logic fails for the simple fact that you would restrict the rights of the majority for the false belief that owning handguns is worthless. There does not need to exist any public “need” for us to have the right to own handguns. It is up to you to prove that society is hurt by ownership of such guns, and you have to prove that this harm is so pervasive as to outright restrict the freedom of more then 20 million people. You can’t do this.

So shit down and shut the fuck up.

[Master of Ossus]

No, the assailant is more likely to blow your brains out when you reach for your wallet/gun and then take it.

If someone has a gun on you, you cant reach for yours...if they dont have a gun on you, then it isnt self defense, it's summary execution.

Frankly you yanks are fucking insane.

Yes, our insanity is marked by the intractable belief that shooting someone who is attacking you with a knife is "summary execution."

[Alyeska]

I want guns! I want guns!
Guns make me safe!
Guns are good!
I want guns! I want guns!

Concealed carry, what a wonderfully retarded idea that is too...lets carry hidden guns about with us...incase we see a crime so we can execute the perp on the spot.

WRONG. The states that have easy access to conceal carry permits actualy have some of the lowest street crime rates in the country. Some of the states that recently relaxed their conceal carry laws shaw a noticable decrease in street crimes WITHOUT a noticeable inrease in shooting deaths.

Every single fucking argument for "self defense" with handguns always turns out to be really "summary execution" rather than self defense.

Firearms are used in 2 million home invassions every year for self defense. Fully 98% of these are resolved without a single shot being fired. Contrary to what you would make others believe, people with guns are not blood thirsty creatures itching to pull the trigger any chance they get.

[Alyeska]

Here is something worth considering. John Stossel did one of his reports where he was looking at the top 10 urban legends of common culture. One of them was gun control. John decided the best people to talk to on the issue were criminals. He went to a high security prison and asked the criminals what they thought about gun control. They love gun control. The criminals don’t bother buying their guns legally and they love any law that restricts guns from the hands of law abiding citizens. In turn, the criminals actually fear an armed populace.

Something else to consider. The vast majority of crimes committed with guns are done with illegal weapons. These are weapons that gun control could NEVER stop. Some of these weapons do come from legal sources because they were stolen, but the largest group comes from the black market and illegal imports. The US sea ports, the Mexican and Canadian borders just can’t stop these weapons from entering the US. You ban firearms all together and all your left with is armed criminals and unarmed citizens.

[Tribun]

Hahahaha.

I can only laugh at such a debate about gun owning.

You gun-happy Americans would surely get a shock when you hear that the weapon laws here in good old Germany are becoming more and more restrictive every year.
Just to list some things:
-To even posses a weapon, you need already several documents that prove that you nned this weapon for your job or that you are fit to have one.
-Every weapon need to be registed, even the guns with not-leathal ammo.
-Anything bigger than a handgun, with exceptions for some professions, is forbidden. That includes pumpguns, shotguns, SMG's and assault rifle and heavier stuff.

And many more rules. It is extremly hard here to get into posession of a weapon legally. And illegal weapon possesion is here already nearly a capital crime.

That these dabates in America are laughable.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Yeah, and what are your fucking crime rates?

[Tribun]

Yeah, and what are your fucking crime rates?

Compared to American cities, they are far lower. And the number of crimes is decreasing every year anyway since the late 1980's.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Despite the fact that I'm a liberal, I could never understand the logic behind banning firearms. So how denying legit civilians of firearms possession would reduce crime? How it will stop *criminals* from owning firearms, considering it's the main tool of their profession and they would likely to acquire guns anyway (black market etc), ban or no ban.

[frigidmagi]

And the number of crimes is decreasing every year anyway since the late 1980's.

So have American Crime rates without the need for massive gun control.