Would you get rid of Israel?

Big Phil · Post by **Big Phil** » 2004-12-16 06:45pm

In more than one thread on this board I have seen completely unrelated topics descend into criticism of Israel or Jews in general. Now I don't know any of you people, so I don't know what your reasons for going on these diatribes are. Maybe you don't like Jews, maybe you don't like Israel's politics, maybe you just like to argue. I don't know.

We all know that Israel exists and that it has conquered land from Palestine, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon over the years to expand its borders. Whether you like it or not, Israel is there to stay.

What I would like to know, specifically from those of you who keep saying Israel should never have been created or that it is a racist state, is the following:

1. If the State of Israel were disbanded tomorrow, what would you replace it with?
2. What would you do with the millions of Jewish citizens who have moved to Israel (i.e., where would you put them)?
3. What would you do to ensure that a genocide against said Jewish citizens does not occur?

Only one rule: Address the questions; there are no cop-outs by saying Israel has no right to exist.

Post by **Coyote** » 2004-12-16 06:48pm

Sanchez, things have degenerated enough already.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-12-16 06:50pm

You know, didn't we have a Moratorium on this stuff for a reason?

Xenophobe3691 · Post by **Xenophobe3691** » 2004-12-16 06:51pm

No. Despite their pariah status, they contribute way too much in terms of engineering, computer software, and biotechnology to safely dump.

For example, if you use most instant messaging software (AIM, for example), you're using Israeli software.

Same with using a Centrino processor.

Same with using Windows XP. Or using that newfangled ultrasound technology to destroy tumors.

Xenophobe3691 · Post by **Xenophobe3691** » 2004-12-16 06:52pm

SirNitram wrote:You know, didn't we have a Moratorium on this stuff for a reason?

I believe the moratorium is on IvP threads, this thread deals with Israel alone.

Then again, it doesn't take an idiot pumped on spice to see where this thread is heading...

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2004-12-16 06:53pm

Whoever said we should disband the government and/or move the Jews elsewhere?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-12-16 06:54pm

I think it would have been better for everybody if the Jewish state had been set up on that plot in Kenya they were offered at the turn of the century.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-12-16 06:55pm

I'm going to be watching this thread VERY carefully. The moment we start ignoring the ban on Israeli/Palestinian conflict this gets locked. Sanchez - from what I've seen you've been consistently smacked down with your pro-Israeli slant most memorable being Howedar's ass raping of your indigenous Israeli arms industry bullshit with a nice collage of Amerian equipment they use.

Perhaps people here don't like Israel for many reasons including acting like an abused child by doing to others what it has had done to them. Frankly the idea that a race has earned the 'right' to a homeland because of the things that have happened to them does not sit well with me, particulalrly when you displace some other group that has generally been spit on as well.

I'll let others here air their views but once again PLEASE keep in mind the ban. You can discus it, touch upon it but the minute it gets out of hand this thread is over.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-12-16 06:55pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:Whoever said we should disband the government and/or move the Jews elsewhere?

No one. It's a strawman he was picking up from "let's not give Israel aid." If I've read his posts right, he seems to think that will lead to Israel's destruction. (:roll:)

irishmick79 · Post by **irishmick79** » 2004-12-16 06:56pm

While I don't advocate for the elimination of Israel, I do argue for a moderation of her policies towards the palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank.

The problem is that Israel is a country that hasn't decided what it's identity should be. It has the option of being a Jewish theocracy that caters only to its Jewish tradition and roots at the expense of anybody else, or it can be an inclusive democracy that does not treat the palestinians like second class citizens. Israel has not decided which way it wants to go yet, and I really hope that Israel chooses the latter option.

Big Phil · Post by **Big Phil** » 2004-12-16 07:02pm

Stravo wrote:I'm going to be watching this thread VERY carefully. The moment we start ignoring the ban on Israeli/Palestinian conflict this gets locked. Sanchez - from what I've seen you've been consistently smacked down with your pro-Israeli slant most memorable being Howedar's ass raping of your indigenous Israeli arms industry bullshit with a nice collage of Amerian equipment they use.

Perhaps people here don't like Israel for many reasons including acting like an abused child by doing to others what it has had done to them. Frankly the idea that a race has earned the 'right' to a homeland because of the things that have happened to them does not sit well with me, particulalrly when you displace some other group that has generally been spit on as well.

I'll let others here air their views but once again PLEASE keep in mind the ban. You can discus it, touch upon it but the minute it gets out of hand this thread is over.

Stravo,

I'm neither trying to stir things up nor make an ass of myself. I am genuinely curious why there is so much heated discussion anytime Israel comes up as a topic of discussion.

Like I said before, people keep repeating that Israel had no right to exist and that it's a racist state. I really want to know what solutions, if any, people have for the existence of Israel. Do they want it eliminated, do they want the government changed, or are they happy with the situation as it is now?

If you think this is a bad topic or it gets out of hand, feel free to lock it and I'll drop the subject.

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2004-12-16 07:06pm

SancheztheWhaler wrote:In more than one thread on this board I have seen completely unrelated topics descend into criticism of Israel or Jews in general. Now I don't know any of you people, so I don't know what your reasons for going on these diatribes are. Maybe you don't like Jews, maybe you don't like Israel's politics, maybe you just like to argue. I don't know.

Cheap.

SancheztheWhaler wrote:What I would like to know, specifically from those of you who keep saying Israel should never have been created or that it is a racist state, is the following:

1. If the State of Israel were disbanded tomorrow, what would you replace it with?
2. What would you do with the millions of Jewish citizens who have moved to Israel (i.e., where would you put them)?
3. What would you do to ensure that a genocide against said Jewish citizens does not occur?

Only one rule: Address the questions; there are no cop-outs by saying Israel has no right to exist.

Why do some people equate criticism of Israel with anti-Semeticm? Hell, if I criticise the People's Republic of China's human rights record am I being a racist? If I criticize President Mugabe of Zimbabwe and his government am I being an Imperialist since I'm also European? (His spin-doctors would actually say "yes" to that question).

The fact that the State of Israel is a racist state does not mean that the Jews would be expelled from the Levant if they changed their policies. The fact that the formation of the State of Israel was a mistake does not mean that people saying so are anti-Semetic.

As for your questions:
1) I would replace it with a state that does not base residency rights on ethnic or religious considerations, and abides by the principles of the rule of law and human rights.
2) See above.
3) See above.

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2004-12-16 07:41pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:Whoever said we should disband the government and/or move the Jews elsewhere?

Did Illuminati Primus hint at that in the other thread?

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2004-12-16 07:51pm

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:Did Illuminati Primus hint at that in the other thread?

I don't know, nor do I really care. There are 2000+ people registered to this board, so I'm sure you can find a few with that opinion. On the other side of the spectrum we have those around here who spout off that all Arabs need to be nuked.
Concerning Israel, the general concenses around here is that the government needs some fundamental policy changes to bring it into at least the 20th century, not total and outright disbandment with the former Jewish citizens left to fend for themselves.

Post by **Coyote** » 2004-12-16 07:53pm

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:
Wicked Pilot wrote:Whoever said we should disband the government and/or move the Jews elsewhere?
Did Illuminati Primus hint at that in the other thread?

No, he felt it would have been better if it had never formed, but now Israel has been formed and so its a done deal. They can keep the land if they can hold it but only on their own with no outside help, even though he agrees that it is a race-based apartheid state with no legitimacy.

Post by **Coyote** » 2004-12-16 08:02pm

That said, Israel IMO should adopt the two-state solution, with borders based somewhat but probably not exactly on the June 1967 borders. The Settlers should be pulled out of the WB and GS in return for no Right of Return.

My major difference with many on this board here is that I think it is acceptable for the state to be official Jewish. Other faiths should not be penalized, nor should different faiths be penalized in other countries either (for example, the Islamic Republic of Iran, which does penalize non-Muslims).

The Israeli government is a multi-party Parliamentary based system with a strong PM and a weak figurehead President. I think the office of President is unneeded, that's th eonly change I'd make. It is a hybrid of Capitalism and Socialism, with socialized medicine and education which I agree with.

There's little I would change except to remove too much of the religious influence on government--primarily the Settlers.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2004-12-16 08:10pm

At this point, those born in Isreal are every bit a native to the region as the Arabs born in the region. Isreal has the right to exsist as long as they can defend themselves. I some what agree with the view point that they should do it on their own, not that we or anyone can't help them, but not to the high degree that we do now.

The idea of a 'Jewish State' is scary though. I don't like any religeon with my goverment, no matter where it is.

Big Phil · Post by **Big Phil** » 2004-12-16 08:11pm

Coyote wrote:
Bob the Gunslinger wrote:
Wicked Pilot wrote:Whoever said we should disband the government and/or move the Jews elsewhere?
Did Illuminati Primus hint at that in the other thread?

No, he felt it would have been better if it had never formed, but now Israel has been formed and so its a done deal. They can keep the land if they can hold it but only on their own with no outside help, even though he agrees that it is a race-based apartheid state with no legitimacy.

Gentlemen, and ladies. Please accept my apologies for the harshness of the intro to this thread. I am not trying to label anyone a racist or anti-semite, but obviously I expressed myself poorly.

Rather than get into a discussion of who is bad and who is good (Israel vs. Palestine), I simply wanted to move the discussion forward and ask what should be done about it today. Israel exists, it is a nominal democracy (as long as you're Jewish), it has an antagonistic relationship with all of its neighbors. Fine.

What do you suggest we do about it? I've seen a couple of responses - make it a true democracy or keep it a Jewish state.

I'll state my opinion and it's open to whatever criticism you care to throw at it. Israel as a true democracy will cease to be Israel. I don't believe it was ever meant to be a true democracy, but rather was designed as a Jewish democracy.

A Palestinian State on whatever territory Israel, Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon choose to give it may not be fair, but I don't see Israel allowing large numbers of Muslims or Palestinians to become Israeli citizens. There is always the possibility, 30-50 years down the line, that a truly democratic Israel goes the way of Nazi Germany, which a Jewish minority being persecuted and massacred. It would be an absolute shame if this were to happen again, and obviously the Israelis don't trust any non-Jews to take care of them anymore. I don't blame them, given what has happened to them.

Big Phil · Post by **Big Phil** » 2004-12-16 08:15pm

In other words, I think that a two-state solution is the only one that will work. It will allow the Palestian Muslims to govern themselves, and Jewish Israelis to govern themselves.

Post by **Coyote** » 2004-12-16 08:19pm

Actually, Sanchez, Israel allows Muslims and other non-Jews to vote, own property, participate in elections and run for office. There are Arab members in the Knesset, Israel's Parliament.

Military service is compulsory for Jews but voluntary for non-Jews. There are units of Beduoin and Druze. They are not integrated units, true, and they face a "glass ceiling" of promotions beyond Colonel.

In fact, it is ironic that Arab citizens of Israel have more voice in the Israeli government than they do in any of the various Arab tyrant states.

Big Phil · Post by **Big Phil** » 2004-12-16 08:24pm

Coyote wrote:Actually, Sanchez, Israel allows Muslims and other non-Jews to vote, own property, participate in elections and run for office. There are Arab members in the Knesset, Israel's Parliament.

Military service is compulsory for Jews but voluntary for non-Jews. There are units of Beduoin and Druze. They are not integrated units, true, and they face a "glass ceiling" of promotions beyond Colonel.

In fact, it is ironic that Arab citizens of Israel have more voice in the Israeli government than they do in any of the various Arab tyrant states.

Granted, but Arab/Muslim status in Israeli society is rather similar to that of blacks here in the US. They have equal rights, but they often get treated unfairly by the authorities. I just didn't feel like getting nitpicky about exactly how non-Jews are treated in Israel vs. how Jew are treated.

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2004-12-16 08:28pm

SancheztheWhaler wrote:I'll state my opinion and it's open to whatever criticism you care to throw at it. Israel as a true democracy will cease to be Israel. I don't believe it was ever meant to be a true democracy, but rather was designed as a Jewish democracy.

WTF is a "Jewish democracy"? A state is either democratic or it is not. Anyway, you seem to have agreed that Israel is not a truly democratic state. That is reason enough not to like it.

SancheztheWhaler wrote:A Palestinian State on whatever territory Israel, Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon choose to give it may not be fair, but I don't see Israel allowing large numbers of Muslims or Palestinians to become Israeli citizens. There is always the possibility, 30-50 years down the line, that a truly democratic Israel goes the way of Nazi Germany, which a Jewish minority being persecuted and massacred. It would be an absolute shame if this were to happen again, and obviously the Israelis don't trust any non-Jews to take care of them anymore. I don't blame them, given what has happened to them.

Why should Jews be given sole rights to create a state that bars other ethnic groups from becoming citizens? It's not as if they are the only people to have been persecuted throughout history, is it? This point is of particular import when one considers the fact that the Israeli state was created after the ethnic cleansing of millions of people.

I also take issue with the claim that there is a possibility that "a truly democratic Israel goes the way of Nazi Germany, which a Jewish minority being persecuted and massacred". This is, in all frankness, utter and complete bullshit. Nazi Germany was NOT democratic, so the analogy is about as invalid as it could possibly be. Truly democratic states that include jewish minorities do exist and no Holocaust is taking place in any of them.

Big Phil · Post by **Big Phil** » 2004-12-16 08:33pm

Zentai,

Germany was a republic until Hitler was appointed Chancellor, at which point all democratic institutions were eliminated. Remember, Hitler was appointed Chancellor by a democratically elected Prime Minister. It was AFTER Hitler took power, and eliminated these democratic institutions, that Jews, Catholics, Gypsies, Communists, and others were murdered.

Besides which, you still haven't answered the question. What would you do with Israel? Do you think a two state system is a bad idea? If so, why?

Post by **Beowulf** » 2004-12-16 08:41pm

Lord Zentei wrote:Why should Jews be given sole rights to create a state that bars other ethnic groups from becoming citizens? It's not as if they are the only people to have been persecuted throughout history, is it? This point is of particular import when one considers the fact that the Israeli state was created after the ethnic cleansing of millions of people.

Look at the guy who can't read! People of other ethnic groups can become citizens, join the military, and serve in parliment.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2004-12-16 08:54pm

First of all, we should dispense with the half-baked bullshit about those who criticize -hell, even insult- Israel and Zionism doing so because of anti-Semitism. I detest Augusto Pinochet and the Nazi regime he imposed on Chile. This doesn't mean I have anything against Hispanics.

Some of the most strident accusers of Israel have themselves been Jewish: Noam Chomsky, Hannah Arendt, Lenni Brenner, Norman Finkelstein and many others. Finkelstein's lecture Is Criticism Of Israel Anti-Semitic? points out all the fallacies of accusing Israel's accusers of anti-Semitism. It's also pretty funny when he talks about Mel Gibson, Andrew Lloyd Webber and Phyllis Chesler.

http://www.workingtv.com/finkelstein.html

Some of the biggest anti-Semites have been big promoters of Zionism and Israel: Adolf Eichmannn, Adolf Hitler, Richard Nixon.

One's position on Israel, the Middle East or whatever has no bearing on anti-Semitism.

The options for Israel aren't very pretty. They can carry out ethnic cleansing against the Palestinians. They can keep them as second and third-class citizens (like Jim Crow) or they can set up sham "republics" like apartheid-era South Africa did with the blacks. The simplest option would be to combine Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza into one country in which everyone has equal rights (including property rights) before the law regardless of religion or ethnic background.

If that means Israel no longer exists as an officially Jewish state, so be it. The best thing the US founders did was put an end to this country being an officially Christian nation with the First Amendment.

Unfortunately, certain evangelical Jesus-Christers are constantly stirring up trouble in both the US and Israel.

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