Question about the Hoth battle...

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-12-18 02:19am

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:The AT-ATs were supported by dedicated AAW platforms: AT-AAs. They simply are "off-screen" in the film.
So "off-screen" that they failed to engage the Rebel Snowspeeders which destroyed several AT-ATs.

The AT-ATs themselves could not shoot them down either. Care to explain why the AT-AAs would have much superior AAW suites?

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-12-18 02:33am

Deathstalker wrote:I once wondered why the Rebels just didn't plant a few command detonated nuclear mines around the base, then I realized that setting a few nukes off would have brought the base down from the shockwaves. The AT-ATs were causing minor damage from just their weight moving across the plain, and I imagine a couple of kilotons of righteous nuclear explosions would have shaken the base apart.

Incidentally heavy mining is highly successful in Star Wars Battlefront.

Of course it's a game, blah blah blah, but still. ; )

I wonder if Luke could have used his lightsaber to slash up one of the legs of a passing AT-AT and made it fall over that way? Would have been cool anyway, compare the tactics used against the "Oliphants" in ROTK movie. Even if those hulks have "thick armored legs" that are as hard to cut through as blast doors, there are those little support struts and servos on them that look easy to slice.

PS: Was Echo base really a big "snow fort"? I figured at the very least it would have used existing caves mostly, which tend to be made out of rock. Just because a few hallways look like they're made out of packed ice and some metal struts doesn't mean it's an igloo does it? Or do we have outside proof? Curious...

PPS: Yeah the flak burst thing seems to be disproven (at least I'm convinced), and interesting point about the exploding shield generator (assuming it isn't way far away from the rest of the base).

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-12-18 04:23am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Gil Hamilton wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:The AT-ATs were supported by dedicated AAW platforms: AT-AAs. They simply are "off-screen" in the film.
So "off-screen" that they failed to engage the Rebel Snowspeeders which destroyed several AT-ATs.
The AT-ATs themselves could not shoot them down either. Care to explain why the AT-AAs would have much superior AAW suites?

I've never heard of AT-AAs before, but that would be the natural assumption from the information in this thread, since you said they were:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:dedicated AAW platforms

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-12-18 05:41am

Wouldnt they be protected by the shield?

They were already inside the shield perimeter.

So "off-screen" that they failed to engage the Rebel Snowspeeders which destroyed several AT-ATs.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

There were plenty of Snowspeeders in the battle, and every single fight that went on didn´t necessarily have to take place in the one area we saw on film.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-12-18 05:54am

VT-16 wrote:There were plenty of Snowspeeders in the battle, and every single fight that went on didn´t necessarily have to take place in the one area we saw on film.

In the case of AAW platforms clearly not doing their jobs, we have two choices:

1.) They were present and their commanders were either deserters or complete idiots.

2.) They were not present.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-12-18 06:18am

If shield-interactions appear in the film with no visible laser bolts preceding them, that might be chalked up to AT-AA flak fire.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-12-18 08:04am

AT-AAs were in Force Commander. That makes their inclusion iffy, to me, as firstly it's an RTS game where the player has the choice of units included, though I've never played it (since it's crap, apparently) so I can't be sure.

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2004-12-18 11:47am

ITW mentions four types of walkers deployed at Hoth. AT-ATs, AT-STs, AT-PTs and AT-ARs. no mention of the AT-AA.

Walper wrote:I find it a bit hard to believe the Rebel base would be so unstable that a kiloton surface blast kilometers away is going to bring down the walls and kill everyone. The impact tremors caused by the AT-AT's didn't do much else then bring down some loose snow and ice in the base IIRC.

The fac that the AT-AT impacts managed to bring down snow at all, suggests it's very likely that more powerful blasts would bring down more of the base. Also, Hoth is very cavernous as it is. Plenty of the "ground" is just thick ice over crevasses (several walkers found that out while crossing the Moorish Morrain), add to that, the fact that a great deal of Hoth is an ice field over ocean, and you have a pretty unstable landscape.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-12-18 12:21pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The AT-ATs themselves could not shoot them down either. Care to explain why the AT-AAs would have much superior AAW suites?

First of all, I have no idea what you are talking about here. Why would I explain why these hypothetical AT-AAs would have superior AAW to the AT-AT? That's irrelevant to what I said. The point is that we never once saw any of them or any evidence of them shooting at the Snowspeeders or any a random snippet of dialogue from a canon source being part of the Battle of Hoth. I'm sure if they exist they do have better targetting abilities than the AT-ATs, which have to aim their entire head, but that's not the point.

Secondly, the AT-ATs were able to shoot down the Snowspeeders. That happened repeatedly during the battle (much to the smug sneering of Gen. Veers), including where Luke and Dak's snowspeeder got shot down and they landed at the base of one (this is where Luke gets out, repels up to the belly of one, cuts open a hatch with his lightsabre, and throws in a large explosive of some sort). The AT-ATs did well enough in shooting down the Snowspeeders that they could destroy the shield generator, but not enough to stop several of them from getting smoked.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-12-18 12:24pm

Vympel wrote:AT-AAs were in Force Commander. That makes their inclusion iffy, to me, as firstly it's an RTS game where the player has the choice of units included, though I've never played it (since it's crap, apparently) so I can't be sure.

Aahhh... I see. That clearly makes AT-AAs dubious indeed in being part of the actual Hoth Battle.

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2004-12-18 01:35pm

Maybe the rebels didn't have weapons for making great big holes into the ground. Proton torpedoes are made to pierce the hull of a ship, not to explode all over. Surface explosions require quite a bit of punch, if you want to make a hole of significant size. Best way would be to drill a hole then drop the bomb in it and cover it. This takes time, and if the Empires sensors are good enough, easily avoided. A missile could be used, but don't reacall rebels having anything of the sort.

-Gunhead

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2004-12-18 02:54pm

VT-16 wrote: There were plenty of Snowspeeders in the battle, and every single fight that went on didn´t necessarily have to take place in the one area we saw on film.

"Plenty" being a dozen, tops. There were at least half a dozen AT-ATs, plus whatever supporting vessels they had.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-12-18 03:00pm

The Rebels didn't know in advance which direction the Imperials would approach from. You could see them hurriedly laying down cable and setting up gun emplacements even as the walkers were already moving into range. This limits the kind of fancy defensive traps they could have employed, and it is entirely possible that they were expecting smaller walkers, against which their defense would have been quite effective.

kheegster · Post by **kheegster** » 2004-12-18 03:14pm

Darth Wong wrote: *snip*....it is entirely possible that they were expecting smaller walkers, against which their defense would have been quite effective.

AT-ATs are part of a standard ISD troop complement, so there's no reason that the Rebels wouldn't assume that they'd be used. Anyway the fact that the Snowspeeders are armed with trip-wires means that they were prepared to take on heavy walkers.

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2004-12-18 03:23pm

Were does it say a tow cable was designed to be used against walkers?
If this had been the case they'd used them from the get go, and not waste time on useless strafing runs.
Ok, then again someone has to come up with why a speeder would have a tow cable in the first place.

-Gunhead

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-12-18 03:23pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Vympel wrote:AT-AAs were in Force Commander. That makes their inclusion iffy, to me, as firstly it's an RTS game where the player has the choice of units included, though I've never played it (since it's crap, apparently) so I can't be sure.
Aahhh... I see. That clearly makes AT-AAs dubious indeed in being part of the actual Hoth Battle.

IIRC, the "AT-AAs as part of Blizzard Force" was shown in a game cut-scene, in other words a part of the game that was already predetermined by Lucasarts.

Shame they were kept out of the OT ITW.

why a speeder would have a tow cable in the first place.

These speeders were used to haul cargo as well as fight. Could explain the tow cables.

Rhoades · Post by **Rhoades** » 2004-12-18 03:24pm

kheegan wrote: AT-ATs are part of a standard ISD troop complement, so there's no reason that the Rebels wouldn't assume that they'd be used. Anyway the fact that the Snowspeeders are armed with trip-wires means that they were prepared to take on heavy walkers.

I thought Luke just improvised in the midst of battle. Those cables weren't meant to go around to tie the AT-AT's shoe laces together. That would be an over-specialized tool to be used against a few assualt vechiles. They were installed on the snowspeeders to help lug around heavy equipment or tow damaged vechiles.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2004-12-18 03:32pm

Darth Wong wrote:The Rebels didn't know in advance which direction the Imperials would approach from. You could see them hurriedly laying down cable and setting up gun emplacements even as the walkers were already moving into range. This limits the kind of fancy defensive traps they could have employed, and it is entirely possible that they were expecting smaller walkers, against which their defense would have been quite effective.

Actually, I'm thinking the walkers are quite a bit harder to knock down than Walper seems to think (which is why I am waiting for him to p ost some sorts of calculations or evidence for what is actually needed yield-wise to knock down an AT-AT).

I base this on the fact that by Evil S'tan's calcs, an AT-AT "maximum-firepower" discharge generates tens or hundreds of kilotons worth of energy (based on the size of the fireball when firingo n the shield generators.) Given that the AT-AT isn't even visibly shaken by the recoil of the discharge (which should be easily generate hundreds of thousands of kg*m/s worth of momentum at minimum), I imagine it would take a fairly large nuclear explosion to actually "knock over" an AT-AT.

Quite possibly one large enough to wipe out the AT-ATs by sheer energy release. Or if not, they could just have tried burying them and blowing them when the AT-ATs walked over them or something (assuming they had time, which they might not have.)

Its also possible that detonating explosions like that under the shield might have been dangerous (to the ground forces and the snowspeeders both) if the yield is sufficiently large, even across many kilometers distance.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-12-18 03:33pm

Rhoades wrote:
kheegan wrote: AT-ATs are part of a standard ISD troop complement, so there's no reason that the Rebels wouldn't assume that they'd be used. Anyway the fact that the Snowspeeders are armed with trip-wires means that they were prepared to take on heavy walkers.
I thought Luke just improvised in the midst of battle. Those cables weren't meant to go around to tie the AT-AT's shoe laces together. That would be an over-specialized tool to be used against a few assualt vechiles. They were installed on the snowspeeders to help lug around heavy equipment or tow damaged vechiles.

I would figure the term "tow" clables gives that away rather than "trip" cables.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2004-12-18 03:34pm

Rhoades wrote:
kheegan wrote: AT-ATs are part of a standard ISD troop complement, so there's no reason that the Rebels wouldn't assume that they'd be used. Anyway the fact that the Snowspeeders are armed with trip-wires means that they were prepared to take on heavy walkers.
I thought Luke just improvised in the midst of battle. Those cables weren't meant to go around to tie the AT-AT's shoe laces together. That would be an over-specialized tool to be used against a few assualt vechiles. They were installed on the snowspeeders to help lug around heavy equipment or tow damaged vechiles.

Hence the reason they were called Tow Cables. Luke Skywalker us equiptment already on board the speeders in a way not intended when they were installed. The Harpoon gun also fired a dart like weapon that Luke apparently assumed that it would do no good but to be used to attach the cable to the walker. The tactic worked but it appears they only pulled it off once.

Big Phil · Post by **Big Phil** » 2004-12-18 03:34pm

Perhaps we should all just put this thread on hold until Walper can perform the necessary calculations showing just how much force is necessary to knock over an AT-AT. Nuclear detonations don't necessarily destroy CONCRETE buildings if they aren't right at ground zero; I doubt AT-AT's are made of concrete.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2004-12-18 03:36pm

Darth Wong wrote:The Rebels didn't know in advance which direction the Imperials would approach from. You could see them hurriedly laying down cable and setting up gun emplacements even as the walkers were already moving into range. This limits the kind of fancy defensive traps they could have employed, and it is entirely possible that they were expecting smaller walkers, against which their defense would have been quite effective.

Actually now that I think about it, its quite probable they had a shortage of proton torpedoes or other "warheads" with which they might try this. According to the TESB radio drama, just prior to the Battle of Hoth, the Imperials ambushed and destroyed a Rebel Convoy at Derra IV - not only did this wipe out a (vital, IIRC) stash of supplies for the Rebels, but it also decimated the fighter group under Commander Narra (and Renegade flight) that was to join Echo Base (leaving them only with Rogue flight.)

Recall as well that in ANH (according to the OT:ICS at least, IIRC) they had a shortage of proton torpedoes (Luke for example went into the fight carrying only a single pair) - they might have likewise had a shortage here. And any torpedoes they DID carry might have been placed on the fighters to help them defend the convoy, assuming that they had any of sufficient yield with which to attack the AT-ATs.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-12-18 03:37pm

Darth Wong wrote:The Rebels didn't know in advance which direction the Imperials would approach from. You could see them hurriedly laying down cable and setting up gun emplacements even as the walkers were already moving into range. This limits the kind of fancy defensive traps they could have employed, and it is entirely possible that they were expecting smaller walkers, against which their defense would have been quite effective.

Indeed; one AT-AT was lost to ice collapse or crevices according to ITW. The Rebels may have suspected that few Imperial Army officers could successfully cross the glaciers with heavy walkers to attack them.

Deathstalker · Post by **Deathstalker** » 2004-12-18 03:59pm

In one of the WEG SW supplements, it was mentioned that Luke and Rebel tactician came up with plans for attacking AT-ATs. The first thing to try was for speeders to go right at the walkers in line and then split to avoid fire. If that didn't work, and it didn't, the next plan was to use the cables for a trip attack.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-12-18 05:11pm

VT-16 wrote:IIRC, the "AT-AAs as part of Blizzard Force" was shown in a game cut-scene, in other words a part of the game that was already predetermined by Lucasarts.

Shame they were kept out of the OT ITW.

That they left it out of ITWs and Empire Strikes Back makes it a major problem. Them being in the cutscene is probably because they are units in the game, but games aren't exactly very high on the list of canon things, particularly when contradicted by other sources. Otherwise, I could pull alot of really funky facts from the game "TIE Fighter" alone, such as "How many TIE Defenders does it take to destroy a battle group of Stardestroyers? One."