Question about the Hoth battle...

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2004-12-19 08:27pm

Robert Walper wrote:
The Original Nex wrote:
Robert Walper wrote:
I was under the impression visuals like these directly from the movies (highest canon) overrides other evidence where there is other attack vehicles in the area? I recall only seeing one other vehicle during the battle; that being one AT-ST?
There's nothing in the films saying that the AT-ATs and AT-STs are the only walkers deployed. Unless the film explicitly contradicts the EU, the EU stands.
And how does not seeing these other walkers/vehicles with the AT-AT's on open, flat, white terrain not consitute evidence they are not there?

Ever stop to think that just maybe the Imperials were attacking from more than one direction?

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-12-19 08:29pm

The Original Nex wrote: Ever stop to think that just maybe the Imperials were attacking from more than one direction?

Read the second part of my post dumbass.

Hardy · Post by **Hardy** » 2004-12-19 08:44pm

Robert Walper wrote: I lack the technical expertise to provide calcs to determine what kind of blast would be required to knock the AT-AT's over.

Okay, the premise of this is basically a wild guess(since this is a virgin field for me), but I'm about to calculate the energy required to make the AT-AT's CG overbalance. I assume the CG is somewhere behind the AT-AT's head.

To get the CG directly over the foot of the AT-AT, you need to rotate the CG by 7.5 degrees around the foot (tangent of the foot to the CG). When rotated like this the opposite foot raises by 7.5 degrees. This correspends to raising the foot 1 meter (SIN(7.5)(7.9m)). To raise a kilogram 1 meter on an earthlike planet, you need 9.8 Joules. The AT-AT may weigh(well I don't know how you turn "mass" into a verb) about 2500 tonnes, so it may therefore take 24.5 MJ to topple an AT-AT.
Okay, keep in mind that this is energy and the AT-AT has supreme heat dissipation capabilities, so unless an object posseses such kinetic energy I should be calculating momentum as opposed to energy. The momentum imparted on the AT-AT would be 11E6 kg-m/s.

Now that I have made a fool of myself with the above calcs, you may all stone me

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2004-12-19 11:57pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote: Really? Want to provide that quote? Where Chee said it too?

Since when does what Chee says suddenly dictate canon policy irrespective to all previous statements made on canon/official policy? Just what sort of quasi-religious revisionistic bullshit are you peddling here? Next you're going to tell me Lucas's opinions matter more than the movies themselves or something!

And praytell - if this is not how they govern continuity, what is it good for?

here and here you twit.

SWTC wrote: Lucasfilm keeps a database, called the "Holocron", to record additions to the official continuity. This record is used as a source of information for licensees. It is a description of continuity, but it does not actually govern or define continuity. True continuity depends on the usually understood and long-established hierarchy of canonical and official evidence.

SWTC wrote: The distinction between "G" and "C" does not aid the objective evaluation of continuity. These two classifications don't coincide with the boundary between canon and EU. Not all "G" sources are canon (e.g. prologue by George Lucas in the paperback edition of the EU novel Shatterpoint). All canon sources include contributions from at least a few people other than Lucas. Information in a canonical source (especially the movies) necessarily holds higher priority than any EU source, no matter who is the author. In any case, the individual contributions in a collaborative, licensed project are usually unknowable and inseparable at some level. The influences upon (and between) the contributors are too complicated, and too often subliminal, to be traced fully. Finally, it is the substance of a source (not its putative origin) that has to be measured and assessed. Thus the GCSN source classification does not (by itself) address or solve conflicts between EU and canonical sources. Except on "S" and "N" levels, the GCSN scheme does not bestow priority to one set of evidence over another.

And quite frankly games were never said to be barely canon - it was always just said that game mechanics did not count, but everything else did. It was simply fan convention which shoved aside game sources. Game sources have always simply been EU level, which according to the recent classification is C canon. ICS and ITW have been explicitly labeled also as C canon.

I never said the games were "barely canon" I simply pointed out that it is untrue that they are of equal status to the DK books - unless you appeal to some sort of unscientific Star Wars papacy or something (which you appear to be doing, appealing to only Chee's opinion on the matter.) Apparently you need to be educated on basic analytical methodology (yet again)

If Gil's right about the "barely admissible" game sources, surely he can produce a quote saying such. Because this way it just seems he's trying to wave off a source he doesn't like.

And what do Gil's statements have to do with what I posted, since I have not referred to Gil? Or are you just trying to sidetrack the conversation with irrelevant commentary?

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2004-12-20 12:03am

Doh.. nevermind

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-12-20 12:11am

Connor MacLeod wrote:2,500 tons is probably conservative (that weighs as much as a fairly large car)

Nitpick: THat's a damn big car, MacLeod. Did you buy it from HAB?

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2004-12-20 12:14am

SirNitram wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:2,500 tons is probably conservative (that weighs as much as a fairly large car)
Nitpick: THat's a damn big car, MacLeod. Did you buy it from HAB?

No

I prefer a car that works and has decent fuel mileage

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-12-20 01:08am

Connor MacLeod wrote:[snip]

That's all jolly Connor, but LFL has the moral property rights and thus determins how the sources mean anything. To a degree the nature of the source is inseperable from its authority - by nature a visual, filmic depiction will be a more objective, empirically verifiable source than a written one, but beyond that LFL really can do whatever it wants with the heirarchy. You'll find such "unscientific Papist" behavior as appealing to Paramount for canon policy from Mike and Wayne. Again I suspect this is the bizarre thought of defering to those who hold moral property rights, but I could be wrong.

And show me, specifically, where games are inferior canon to DK sources. DK nonfiction has been called canon, yes, but Rostini also called everything canon, and Chee calls it C canon and lumps it with general EU. I have never seen anything to suggest games in general are quite unreliable. Perhaps you'll direct me?

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2004-12-20 04:10am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
You'll find such "unscientific Papist" behavior as appealing to Paramount for canon policy from Mike and Wayne. Again I suspect this is the bizarre thought of defering to those who hold moral property rights, but I could be wrong.

From Chee's latest comments, he seems to underline the fact that the Holocron is generally nothing more than an in-house CUSWE. Production doesn't consult it, and Lucas doesn't consult it. I'll defer to Curtis' reasoning on canon; that we should remember the original hierarchy movies> scripts> novelizations> radio dramas> DK books over the GCSN-level stuff. As a result, I should more clearly define this on my own webpages. After all, the GCSN entries actually rely on the Cerasi-Rostoni explanations of canon levels.

Recall, you have assholes like JTS attempting to tell us that "the Crystal Star" is on the same level as an ICS resource!

And show me, specifically, where games are inferior canon to DK sources. DK nonfiction has been called canon, yes, but Rostini also called everything canon, and Chee calls it C canon and lumps it with general EU. I have never seen anything to suggest games in general are quite unreliable. Perhaps you'll direct me?

I'll have to look that up as well, but I'm certain he follows the generally accepted place for the games: the storyline is EU, but gameplay and vehicle attributes and such are not. Currently, there's a discussion on the sw.com message board on whether which outcome in the KOTOR games are canon; the Jedi or Sith endings?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-12-20 04:16am

Technically, there isn't a scrap of evidence that the DK books were ever considered internally by LFL to be superior to general EU.

As I said, they were described as canon, but Rostini called all non-Infinities EU canon, and Chee simply pegs it as C canon.

As Cerasi once said, these terms get thrown around a lot, there's no context to decide what it actually means for DK nonfiction. Is it "canon" like the rest of the EU is? Is it "canon" like the film novelisations?

We ought to ask Chee these questions directly, really.

Still, on principle, you agree LFL reserves the right to revise and restate and reorganize their heirarchy of authority within Star Wars continuity at will and their stance would be the rule, right? I mean they have moral property rights - its their call, irrespective of any "unscientific Papistry." That's their property. My point is not whether GCSN denotes authority within the heirarchy, but that LFL has the right to change its view at will and to have its employees state such. Hence both your and Mike's appeal to Paramount and LFL's statements because THEY GET TO DECIDE WHAT IS CANON.

Lord Poe wrote:I'll have to look that up as well, but I'm certain he follows the generally accepted place for the games: the storyline is EU, but gameplay and vehicle attributes and such are not. Currently, there's a discussion on the sw.com message board on whether which outcome in the KOTOR games are canon; the Jedi or Sith endings?

Its not just that; as you can see many attempt to demand that the storyline is also "less than other EU" in authority, and I've never seen something like that stated anywhere.

And I believe Insider has said that the Jedi ending is correct; after all, the Star Forge is confirmed destroyed by the Databank.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2004-12-20 05:17am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Technically, there isn't a scrap of evidence that the DK books were ever considered internally by LFL to be superior to general EU.

As I said, they were described as canon, but Rostini called all non-Infinities EU canon, and Chee simply pegs it as C canon.

You're right. My "sources" page simply highlights the fact that the DK books have been used as reference by production, while other EU ad the Holocron itself have not. That, to me, elevates the DK books over other sources.

As Cerasi once said, these terms get thrown around a lot, there's no context to decide what it actually means for DK nonfiction. Is it "canon" like the rest of the EU is? Is it "canon" like the film novelisations?

We ought to ask Chee these questions directly, really.

Chee has already spoken specifically about this. The Holocron lists the DK books in the C-canon category. And that's fine for the Holocron. The semantics nitpickers can piss and moan all they want trying to say "The Glove Of Darth Vader" is on the same level as the DK books, but look at the facts of the matter. They may both reside in the C canon level, but clearly they aren't equal.

Still, on principle, you agree LFL reserves the right to revise and restate and reorganize their heirarchy of authority within Star Wars continuity at will and their stance would be the rule, right?

Of course. Strictly speaking, the canon hierarchy hasn't really changed miuch at all.

I mean they have moral property rights - its their call, irrespective of any "unscientific Papistry." That's their property. My point is not whether GCSN denotes authority within the heirarchy, but that LFL has the right to change its view at will and to have its employees state such. Hence both your and Mike's appeal to Paramount and LFL's statements because THEY GET TO DECIDE WHAT IS CANON.

Again, agreed. But we have to weigh these comments against one another. Chee is always explicit when it comes to the Holocron. The GCSN stuff actually does still follow the principles of the continuity quotes of the past.

Its not just that; as you can see many attempt to demand that the storyline is also "less than other EU" in authority, and I've never seen something like that stated anywhere.

I'll have to check on that. The X-wing books are almost solely based on the X-wing games, and Kyle Katarn is still a viable EU character.

And I believe Insider has said that the Jedi ending is correct; after all, the Star Forge is confirmed destroyed by the Databank.

Hmm. Is KOTOR 2 out? Because I recall reading this on the sw.com boards very recently.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2004-12-20 06:52am

Lord Poe:
Emm, a question:
Were the technical specifications and descriptions from the DK books used, or were they just used as a collection of pictures (of vehicles from the movies) to get "SW inspiration" instead of citing all the models from the archives (or watching the movies again and again) to get the same?
In other words, were their additions (to the movies) used or just parts which were already in the movies (only due to easier access)?

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2004-12-20 09:49am

Lord Poe wrote:From Chee's latest comments, he seems to underline the fact that the Holocron is generally nothing more than an in-house CUSWE. Production doesn't consult it, and Lucas doesn't consult it.

Could you provide a link to those comments?
Because from his post on 19th of december it doesn't seem to be the case:

Tasty Taste wrote:In a nut shell, I recall it going something like this:
A: The size is X
B: These sources say X, these other source say Y.
(group discusses)
A: We've agreed that Y seems to reflect more closely what we see in the film, so Y.
C: It's neither X, nor Y, it's actually Z. What's to be done?
A: Nothing, until someone writes about it.
(C finally gets in a position to write about it and submits draft)
A (to group): C is suggesting we use size Z.
(group discusses)
A: We've agreed that new size Z is more accurate to the film, so that's what we're going with.

The link is here. From this, it seems that if an author wants to write something different from the actual content of the Holocron, it is discussed first (before publishing), and when they agree, it is published and the Holocron is modified.
If an author cannot publish something (in this case, the lenght of the Executor) that is against the Holocron without being accepted first then you cannot place those resources higher in the hierarchy, can you?

Kray Dronvon · Post by **Kray Dronvon** » 2004-12-20 10:05am

Im aware of the situation on hoth , and i knwo the x wings were few and far between for the transports, But wouldn't it have been a smart idea to load up one x-wing with torps to assist in the attack with the speeders. Im positive that even one x wing attacking the at's would have inflicted heavy damage if not destroy many of the at's.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-12-20 10:34am

And if they can only load up two torps?

Yes...four AT-ATs down instead of two....that will halt the Imperial advance and it delays the launch of a transport.

In the end...they were evacuating and the Speeders were only there to delay...nothing more. They knew they weren't pulling victory out of their ass, and it's a waste of valuable resources to shot down a couple extra imps.

Kray Dronvon · Post by **Kray Dronvon** » 2004-12-20 10:49am

Ghost Rider wrote:And if they can only load up two torps?

Yes...four AT-ATs down instead of two....that will halt the Imperial advance and it delays the launch of a transport.

In the end...they were evacuating and the Speeders were only there to delay...nothing more. They knew they weren't pulling victory out of their ass, and it's a waste of valuable resources to shot down a couple extra imps.

I know they were mearly buying time in the end, id still gun down as many imps as i could before making it away with my tail between my legs

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-12-20 10:57am

Kray Dronvon wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:And if they can only load up two torps?

Yes...four AT-ATs down instead of two....that will halt the Imperial advance and it delays the launch of a transport.

In the end...they were evacuating and the Speeders were only there to delay...nothing more. They knew they weren't pulling victory out of their ass, and it's a waste of valuable resources to shot down a couple extra imps.
I know they were mearly buying time in the end, id still gun down as many imps as i could before making it away with my tail between my legs

And waste resources better suited for combat for a day in which you could win or defeat the enemy?

They've stated in the novels that had a lack of Torpedos...wasting a couple so they could get a couple Imps wouldn't have done shit to their offensive and would have wasted resources you didn't have much of.

This would be no different then sending an extra fighter to Pearl Harbor to make a better show of force. A useless gesture and a tactical blunder of the highest order.

Kray Dronvon · Post by **Kray Dronvon** » 2004-12-20 11:02am

And waste resources better suited for combat for a day in which you could win or defeat the enemy?

They've stated in the novels that had a lack of Torpedos...wasting a couple so they could get a couple Imps wouldn't have done shit to their offensive and would have wasted resources you didn't have much of.

This would be no different then sending an extra fighter to Pearl Harbor to make a better show of force. A useless gesture and a tactical blunder of the highest order.

dude I play way too much Tie fighter and X wing alliance to be realistic man'g.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-12-20 11:05am

Kray Dronvon wrote:

And waste resources better suited for combat for a day in which you could win or defeat the enemy?

They've stated in the novels that had a lack of Torpedos...wasting a couple so they could get a couple Imps wouldn't have done shit to their offensive and would have wasted resources you didn't have much of.

This would be no different then sending an extra fighter to Pearl Harbor to make a better show of force. A useless gesture and a tactical blunder of the highest order.
dude I play way too much Tie fighter and X wing alliance to be realistic man'g.

So do I...but I know when not to send one poor sucker into a firefight...I'm going to lose.

When the AT-ATs appeared the Rebels knew to hightail it faster. They were likely expecting something far less armored because of the snow and ice, not the premier killing ground vehicle of the Empire.

Kray Dronvon · Post by **Kray Dronvon** » 2004-12-20 11:15am

Ghost Rider wrote:
Kray Dronvon wrote:

And waste resources better suited for combat for a day in which you could win or defeat the enemy?

They've stated in the novels that had a lack of Torpedos...wasting a couple so they could get a couple Imps wouldn't have done shit to their offensive and would have wasted resources you didn't have much of.

This would be no different then sending an extra fighter to Pearl Harbor to make a better show of force. A useless gesture and a tactical blunder of the highest order.
dude I play way too much Tie fighter and X wing alliance to be realistic man'g.
So do I...but I know when not to send one poor sucker into a firefight...I'm going to lose.

When the AT-ATs appeared the Rebels knew to hightail it faster. They were likely expecting something far less armored because of the snow and ice, not the premier killing ground vehicle of the Empire.

I have to admit those games make me feel like i can take on anything, why are they so f-ing good. its gets me fearce when i get in my car thinking its an x wing

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-12-20 04:33pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Its not faith-based evidence.

If it is not explicitly contradicted and other sources filled in other units elsewhere, than they were there. You cannot use their absence in another source to contradict their presence in annother. The absence proves nothing other than the former source did not include those units.

Your characterization would be correct if there was NO evidence of AT-AAs. If they were placed at Hoth by Force Commander, it contradicts nothing and they were there.

It's explicitly contradicted by the ITW book, which lists all the types of units used at Hoth and where they were on the planet, including all the ones that weren't explicitly shown in the movie, and it doesn't list them at all. If they existed, they'd be listed there. Guess what? They aren't. None of the various manuevers or attack waves list any unit called an AT-AA involved. It's obvious that the ITW entry on the Battle of Hoth includes things that aren't show in the movie and that it's the complete map of the battle, after all, they include AT-PTs in the entry and those didn't appear in the movie either. Not being listed there and never once appearing at all in the movies is the nail in the coffin, without being there, it is explicitedly contradicted. Unless of course you are claiming that they just happened to omit AT-AAs from their unit listing for the entire battle.

However, if we want to do it your way, we can conclude that the Emperor himself can be blindsided easily by a rogue admiral in his military. After all, in TIE Fighter, one of the last missions you do in the game is where the Emperor himself gets his shuttle hijacked by the admiral in question and you and your squad have to fly out and save his ass. There is a big cut scene at the end where the Emperor himself personally gives you a medal ceremony for saving his hash. Nowhere is this event ever explicitly contradicted by any other source, so it stands that the Emperor isn't good enough with the Force to see the hijacking coming, or stop them from hijacking him, or that his defenders were able to stop the hijackers, thus requiring him to be saved by a couple of TIE Defender pilots. After all, it's "C" Canon.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-12-20 04:49pm

Are you just somesort of whiny bitch who likes to get on pedestals and rant and rave about the methodology of these debates because there are facts we don't like? What the FUCK was the point of that spiel about the Stele Chronicles? Either you're trying to say we should always put C canon suspect (violation of LFL canon policy, but Gil knows better!), or you're just trying to be a smarmy asshole.

Either way, fuck off. Its the same kind of attitude you pulled when you wanted to be a bitch over Suspension of Disbelief.

Is the existance of the Jedi repulsortanks at Geonosis not true because it was not included in the ItWoAotC? The plot element of Mace Windu dueling several of Dooku's minions in his Sabertank did not happen? The pre-battle knocking out of anti-orbital artillery, bullshit?

You cannot use what does not exist in an EU source as proof that another EU source which says it does exist is false.

And you still haven't provided proof that DK nonfiction is classed above all other EU and that video games are classed below all other EU.

The Silence and I · Post by **The Silence and I** » 2004-12-20 06:38pm

I don't have any calculations dealing with the knockdown force needed to topple an AT AT, but I can say with some certainty that AT AT's are not likely to mass a whole hell of a lot. They are walkers and have a definable (and thus limited) surface area presented by the feet. The total mass cannot be so very high that the pressure against the ground causes the walker to become unstable as it sinks into the soil....

Unless of course AT AT's are only meant for solid rock (or frozen ice) landscapes

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2004-12-20 08:32pm

vakundok wrote:
Lord Poe wrote:From Chee's latest comments, he seems to underline the fact that the Holocron is generally nothing more than an in-house CUSWE Production doesn't consult it, and Lucas doesn't consult it.
Could you provide a link to those comments?

+http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... 3&start=45

Has George Lucas consulted/refered to the database for any Episode III work, and did he use it for Episode II?

Directly, no. If George needs EU reference, (ie images of Aayla Secura for AOTC or images of the EU character who will appear in Ep3), George will ask someone who will ask someone else who might be a user of the Holocron to provide the necessary reference.

+http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... &start=150

G-level canon...

Understand, that the Holocron's primary purpose is to keep track of Star Wars continuity for Lucas Licensing, and to some degree Lucas Online. To my knowledge, it is only rarely used for production purposes.

The primary use that I have for the G-level canon designation is for generating reports. (ie, someone needs a list of primary characters from the prequel films.)

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2004-12-21 01:44am

Lord Poe wrote:+http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... 3&start=45

Has George Lucas consulted/refered to the database for any Episode III work, and did he use it for Episode II?

Directly, no. If George needs EU reference, (ie images of Aayla Secura for AOTC or images of the EU character who will appear in Ep3), George will ask someone who will ask someone else who might be a user of the Holocron to provide the necessary reference.

To me it means that for example the images of the EU character who will appear in ep 3 came from the Holocron, so the Holocron was used for both ep2 and ep3. (Of course, it was only a negligible part, but still.) In other words if George Lucas needs something from the EU and noone knows it around him, the answer will come from the Holocron.

Lord Poe wrote:+http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... &start=150

G-level canon...

Understand, that the Holocron's primary purpose is to keep track of Star Wars continuity for Lucas Licensing, and to some degree Lucas Online. To my knowledge, it is only rarely used for production purposes.

The primary use that I have for the G-level canon designation is for generating reports. (ie, someone needs a list of primary characters from the prequel films.)

First of all, he is the keeper of the Holocron, not the only user of it. What he knows about whether who read it and what for (in other words, the "only rarely") can be considered as the minimum.
What use would it have to production? Images, character backgrounds and some technical specifications (maybe). For novels or comics it is basically useless, unless the author really want to tie in things from other sources.

In your opinion, the Holocron is basicly nothing more than an in- house CUSWE. I disagree. In my opinion, it is COSWE. Completely Official SWE. It is an encyclopedia, and when do you use an encyclopedia? You read an encyclopedia when you need an answer that you do not have at hand and you write it when you want all who asks to get your answer.
When someone (from EU production staff) will ask whether how long the Executor is, he/she will get the answer that it is around 19 km. Not because the ITW or ICS contains that, but because the Holocron contains that.

You seem to suggest that the Holocron (and Chee with it) is unimportant.

As the Database Content Administrator for Lucas Licensing, Leland Chee's job is to stay on top of all the Star Wars details for games, books, comics, trading cards, toys, websites, and more. Sue Rostoni, Managing Editor at Lucasfilm, calls Leland "indispensable . . . the 'go-to' guy whenever esoteric questions come up."