The Question of Sifo Dias Revisited

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-12-20 08:23pm

In AOTC it is stated unequivocally by the Geonosians that a Jedi Master named Sifo Dias placed the order for the clones and even knew that the clones and the accompanying army was meant for the Republic.

Obi Wan knew that Sifo Dias was dead for well on ten years (coincedentaly timed around the events of TPM) He reports this fact to the council and they seemed troubled (though Yoda and Windu seem to exchange knowing glances at the revelation) but after that nothing much is done in terms of an investigation. Only that Yoda will inspect the clone army - and brings it to Geonosis.

There are some serious questions to ask:

Who paid for this clone army and its accompanying equipment? Jedi Masters cannot be that rich to purchase hundreds of thousands of clones, armor, weapons and then most expensive of all Walkers and Capital ships.

How did these ships get constructed without tipping anyone off in the Republic? I assume and order of a few thousand warships is not something that is par for the course, in particular when one manufacturer is involved.

Just what the hell was Sifo Dias' involvement? How did a single Jedi master get the approval or think he had approval to purchase an army for the Republic and not inform the council?

And to the Jedi who to them nothing is ever coincidence what does it mean that a fleet and army are ready for the Republic's use JUST in time for the Clone War?

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2004-12-20 09:15pm

Not having read much of anything of the PT EU, I was under the impression that Sidious had already been working on corrupting Dooku before or durring or right after TPM.

And it was Dooku, impersonating Difus, and ordering the Clones. The money was probably bankroled by the Republic, via Palpatine snaking money from various bills and programes.

Dooku probably recruited Fett, ordered the Clone's and wipped the records from the Jedi library as he was on his way out of the Order, and probably killed Difus as a security measure.

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2004-12-20 09:46pm

In all likelihood Sifo Dias never set foot on Kamino or Kuat. Someone impersonating him using Sideous' probably not inconsiderable resources to acquire superb forgeries for all the appropriate documentation and some creative banking (read: in all likelihood outright theft) for a down payment ordered the army and the accompanying assault ships.

As demonstrated by the Trade Federation, private organizations can possess considerable autonomy and can easily slip things under the Republic's notice. The shipyards where the Acclamators that would carry the Grand Army of the Republic were being built was probably kept totally off limits to non-Kuat personnel. Who the ships were for would likely be kept a closely guarded secret known only to the highest levels on a need to know basis.

The construction of the fleet was probably spread out over the course of the 10 years to avoid an appearance of a massive military build up and the finished products dispersed to rallying points far from major routes of civilian traffic. There are billions of uninhabited and planetless systems in the SW galaxy, any one or more of them could be used to hide an armada of staggering size for years without anyone ever knowing about simply because no one has any reason to visit a system declared worthless centuries, even millennia ago. Particularly if the ships themselves are just left there nearly unpowered to minimize the amount of supply and maintenance traffic needed to go into the system(s)

If someone did happen to stumble on one of the rallying points, well...shoot to kill. Building fleets in total secrecy is probably not a new concept to the contractors and the fleet could be dispersed enough so that the actual size of the fleet could be concealed from maintenance workers and security forces.

Having the fleet ready to come to Kamino to pick up the first 200k units of Clone Troopers is just a matter of Tyrannus and Sideous hopping an infinity encrypted holonet channel:

Sideous: "hey, I think Tuesday will be a good day to start the Clone Wars. You have your Confederate buddies get their armies ready, I'll call Kuat and have them start warming up the Acclamators and start gearing up for something bigger and nastier once the Confederates start fielding proper warships. I think I'll call it a Star Destroyer, has a nice evil ring to it dont'cha think Tyrannus?"

Tyrannus: "Yeal, very evil. Anyway, I better rush off to Geonosis to make sure all those corporate idiots sign their souls and material assets away to me. ttyl Oh and good luck with manipulating the Senate into passing that military creation bill."

Sideous: "Yeah, could use force powers but that would be too easy. Manipulating people in a paranoid, nationalistic fervor is sooooo much more satisfying. Oh Darth Bane's bones, I'm to late for my 4 o'clock screwing with that Skywalker twit's mind."

The Senate probably picked up the tab for the final installment on the Clone Army and the fleet since they couldn't very well turn it down.

Basically the answer to your questions is a bigass conspiracy with a Sith Lord at the center of it playing every side like a finely tuned instrument.

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2004-12-20 09:55pm

Well if the general events of SW:Bounty Hunter have any canoncle value, then Tyrannus did it.

Icehawk · Post by **Icehawk** » 2004-12-20 10:03pm

Wasnt it mentioned somewhere that Dooku quit the Jedi Council around 10 years prior to AOTC? I always figured that Dooku killed Sifo Dias (made it look like an accident or something) then quit the council, and went to Kamino under the guise of Sifo Dias with orders from Sidious/Palpatine to create the Clone army, and then recruited Jango under his new "Darth Tyranus" name or something along those lines,

Basically what Knight said.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-12-20 10:08pm

What always bugged me about the Sifo Dias plotline is I get the sense it won't come up at all in ROTS since there's so much more to cover and do and for me that's the crux of it all for the Jedi. They have been directly linked to the creation of the clone army and the secret fleet. They should be at least trying to figure out what the hell happened here. I see no urgenncy on their part to figure out this mystery. They just accept this clone army and move on. Hardly the action of wise elders if you ask me.

Imagine the uproar here if Bush suddenly 'discovered' three phantom divisions pre positioned in Saudi Arabia on the eve of Gulf War II. The questions would come fast and furious. If the CIA were intimately linked to the creation of this phantom army then it would be a media feeding frenzy. Not a HINT of that AFAIK since I haven't read any EU on this.

President Sharky · Post by **President Sharky** » 2004-12-20 10:17pm

The Episode III lead-in novel, Labyrinth of Evil, allegedly delves into the matter of Sifo-Dyas and the ordering of the clones. From what has been said on TF.N from guys who have advanced copies of the book, Sifo-Dyas did indeed order the clones from Kamino, but Dooku erased the planet from the archives.

Concerning the belief that there should have been a media frenzy, one must note that as soon as Supreme Chancellor Palpatine was given emergency powers, all HoloNet channels were redirected for military use for the duration of the emergency. As such, the public only had access to government-controlled HoloNet channels, which could say whatever they wanted about the Clone Army's arrival.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-12-21 01:46am

The Clone Army initially is puny - its ready figures are 200,000 troops with very shortly 1,000,000 more to go. The numbers of troops in the works for testing is only in the "millions" according to ItWoAotC. The cost of such a force, as Mike said, must pale compared to the daily food shipments to Coruscant.

The real importance of the Clone Army is political. The Seperatists begin to float off and militarize and rattle the saber and many consider military action. Then, the Supreme Chancellor overcomes opposition (even though he doesn't have to because he's a dictator now) by nationalizing a superbly trained highly-mobile strike force and sends it to (at least the Senate and Jedi figure - to end the war. Well it does not work, and before long its clear that the CIS is immense and rapidly overshadowing the tiny initial clone force. The Galactic Republic must now recieve heavy militarization and mobilization on all fronts, volunteer and conscript armies, more clones, war economy, etc. The genius is that the Clone Army allows Palpatine to get the Republic into war painlessly (no militarization or conscription) on promise of a quick resolution (well jeez this doesn't sound historically familiar) and then once the Republic committed ends up requiring it of them anyway.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-12-21 08:20pm

Stravo wrote:What always bugged me about the Sifo Dias plotline is I get the sense it won't come up at all in ROTS since there's so much more to cover and do and for me that's the crux of it all for the Jedi. They have been directly linked to the creation of the clone army and the secret fleet. They should be at least trying to figure out what the hell happened here. I see no urgenncy on their part to figure out this mystery. They just accept this clone army and move on. Hardly the action of wise elders if you ask me.

Imagine the uproar here if Bush suddenly 'discovered' three phantom divisions pre positioned in Saudi Arabia on the eve of Gulf War II. The questions would come fast and furious. If the CIA were intimately linked to the creation of this phantom army then it would be a media feeding frenzy. Not a HINT of that AFAIK since I haven't read any EU on this.

Of course, Palpatine can use both the army's creation and the Council's indifference against them. How could the Jedi have known that the Clone Wars were coming, unless they themselves were engineering them, he might say or imply. The fact that Dooku is an ex-Jedi and that the Jedi's isolation has caused many to wonder about their true motives isn't going to help them in the days leading up to the Purge.

irishmick79 · Post by **irishmick79** » 2004-12-22 06:52pm

Maybe Sifo-Dias leaves the Jedi ranks before Dooku does. Maybe Sifo-Dias is already allied with Darth Sideous, and orders the clone army at his behest. The Jedi find out that he is up to something, and send Dooku after him. Dooku investigates, and traces the investigation back to Sideous. Dooku realizes the extent to which Sideous is running things, and the true scope of his plans. Sideous makes a pitch to Dooku. Dooku likes what he hears, and Sideous turns Dooku to the Dark Side.

In order to maintain credibility with the Jedi Council, and to cover Sideous's tracks, Dooku kills Sifo-Dias and takes over the operation for himself. The Council still suspects that something is amiss with Dooku, and Dooku quits the Council upon further questioning from Yoda and Windu.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-12-22 11:34pm

We know Dooku hired Jango Fett; he did so under his Sith name, Tyranus. Since it would be necessary to hire Jango before the project could start, I find it hard to believe that it was not also Darth Tyranus impersonating Sifo-Dyas rather than Sifo-Dyas himself. The timing is simply too perfect, and I can't see a motive for Sifo-Dyas to work with a fallen, or at least ex, Jedi on something like this so shortly before his death.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-12-23 12:21am

We learned in the clone wars cartoon that the Jedi's mind trick ability is so strong they can trick the eyes of EVEN OTHER JEDI into thinking they are someone else, as evidenced when that one Dark Jedi (forget her name) who wanted Dooku to apprentice her escorted him in a room appearing to be an alien of another species, even fooling Dooku for a short time (likely until he probed her with the force).

On a non-Jedi, this technique would be FLAWLESS. I wouldn't be surprised if Dooku could walk up to a Kaminoan using the force to appear as Sifo-Dyas.

Comosicus · Post by **Comosicus** » 2004-12-23 01:29am

Praxis wrote:We learned in the clone wars cartoon that the Jedi's mind trick ability is so strong they can trick the eyes of EVEN OTHER JEDI into thinking they are someone else, as evidenced when that one Dark Jedi (forget her name) who wanted Dooku to apprentice her escorted him in a room appearing to be an alien of another species, even fooling Dooku for a short time (likely until he probed her with the force).

That would be Asajj Ventress.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2004-12-23 02:54am

In the novelization, Obi Van remembers Sifo-Dyas as he was a powerfull member of the Council up to his early death. Jocasta Nu remembered Dooku as one who frequently questioned the Council not to mention the Senate. I mean, if I were Sifo when a war began to approach and wanted to do something (give a chance (in the form of an army) to the Republic) without the knowledge of the Senate (not to warn the opposing forces), I would have to do that without the knowledge of the Council and Dooku would be a natural choice to cooperate with ...

Maybe Sifo was all right and the only mistake he made was that he did not do it alone and he chose the wrong (while seemingly the ideal) man to argue his plans with ...
Maybe Dooku/Tyrannus and [Edited due to poor language skills] Palpy just cought the chance to slightly influence and use that plan for their own purposes, So Sifo ordered the clone army and decided Fett to be the template and likely sent Dooku to hire him. However, the sith had no more use of Dyas, so they (or Palpy alone?) murdered him and Dooku used his true identity when he hired Jango. After that, he returned to Coruscant, erased the Kamino and left the order to receive more sith training ... Soon afterward Palpy encouraged the (later CIS) armament program by prohibiting (hidden, of course, using official politics) the jedi to check that.

While this is just my wild theory, it fits quite well to the evidences I know about, but there are sources I do not know ...

On second thought it is just as possible that Dyas did not come up with the idea, but Dooku approached him to cooperate "to save the Republic".

EDIT: So, in my opinion, Dyas was either fooled or had good intentions but made a mistake.

And to the Jedi who to them nothing is ever coincidence what does it mean that a fleet and army are ready for the Republic's use JUST in time for the Clone War?

To find out the truth would require to solve Dyas' death, something they were not capable to do during ten years and to find out exactly who erased the data about Kamino. After the start of the war, I think they do not have much spare time to do that.