"Daddy is Christmas Under Attack?"

[Durandal]

Which is, in turn, about the religious aspects of the season -- specifically one religion's aspects. Christian conservatives are pissed off that they don't have a monopoly on the month of December anymore. How deliciously ironic, considering that the reason they plopped Christ's birthday at the end of December was to appease converts from pagan religions. Guess it's coming back to bite them in their asses.

Christian conservatives? I know plenty of people who aren't Christian conservatives who think any other December holiday outside Christmas is PC "copy-catting."

What's your point? Christian conservatives aren't pissing and moaning about losing their precious monopoly on the month of December? Christian conservatives aren't actively trying to push the idea that no other religions which placed significance on the month of December existed prior to Christianity? Just because a few ignorant bigots of no particular religious conviction agree with the idea that respecting others' religions is "political correctness," things are somehow different?

[The Yosemite Bear]

Also Axis it's a holiday that PREDATES christianity, christ's birthday should be like september to october dammit. No, the Fetival of lights has always been here, Yule tide is a fucking month (got to love a lunar calendar), no these all predated christianity. So they can't be copycatting.

It's like those groups on campus who try to ban Samhain/All Saint's Eve.

fuck you.

[Axis Kast]

What's your point? Christian conservatives aren't pissing and moaning about losing their precious monopoly on the month of December? Christian conservatives aren't actively trying to push the idea that no other religions which placed significance on the month of December existed prior to Christianity? Just because a few ignorant bigots of no particular religious conviction agree with the idea that respecting others' religions is "political correctness," things are somehow different?

My point is that most people on this website exhaust themselves cursing up a storm at "TH3 FUNDI3S!" without, it seems to me, recognizing that a lot of the problems they're pointing to are being caused not be church-going Bible-thumpers, but by the Average Joe, who lives in white, middle-class suburbia, goes to church once a week if at all and pays only minor lip service to a major religion, deriving most of the same biogtry as his fundamentalist peers not from the Bible, as they do, but from what he deems are "social norms." The reason I always post a counter-point to threads like this is because it often seems like those who used to shout "COMMUNISTS!" every time something went wrong in the Third World. Yeah, many revolutionary movements were socialist in nature, but no, they didn't all take their agendas straight from Moscow. And yes, many people fall back on religious justifications for what they do, but many more don't, and have come to view what people here call "fundamentalist rhetoric" through the lens of "social norms." They don't oppose gay marriage because it's prohibited per their interpretation of the Bible. No, sir. They oppose it either because they don't want to see it because they don't want to entertain the idea that some people are not like them, or because they are afraid to be permissive amidt a society they think has uniformly closed its doors to homosexuality.

[Stravo]

Kast when 98% of the obscenity complaints to the FCC are coming from a single fundie organization you cannot argue the broader "average white guy" who has a smidgen of faith feeling oppressed by the anti Chrsitmas brigade. It is invariably the fundie that is most vocal and shakes things up. The average white guy is too complacent to make these vocal stands against the deemphasis on the religious nature of Christmas. So yes, when many here rail against the Fundies it is because they are the ones on the offensive not the average occasional church goer.

[Andrew J.]

Axi, the social norms you speak of have their origins with far-right Christians. They have permeated into the consciousness of unthinking, ignorant, middle-class drones.

[His Divine Shadow]

I'm sitting having breakfast this weekend. *snip story*

Well we don't suffer from this, it's not called christmas(I think it was called Christ Mass before) over here, it's called "Jul", or Yule, I think this is an interesting thing from a linquistic point of view, how "christianified" and intertwined with the birth of Christ this tradition has become in english and how scandinavian language retains links with the older tradition that christmas was derived from, even having the same name.

So a merry Yule to y'all!

[Durandal]

My point is that most people on this website exhaust themselves cursing up a storm at "TH3 FUNDI3S!" without, it seems to me, recognizing that a lot of the problems they're pointing to are being caused not be church-going Bible-thumpers, but by the Average Joe, who lives in white, middle-class suburbia, goes to church once a week if at all and pays only minor lip service to a major religion, deriving most of the same biogtry as his fundamentalist peers not from the Bible, as they do, but from what he deems are "social norms." The reason I always post a counter-point to threads like this is because it often seems like those who used to shout "COMMUNISTS!" every time something went wrong in the Third World. Yeah, many revolutionary movements were socialist in nature, but no, they didn't all take their agendas straight from Moscow. And yes, many people fall back on religious justifications for what they do, but many more don't, and have come to view what people here call "fundamentalist rhetoric" through the lens of "social norms." They don't oppose gay marriage because it's prohibited per their interpretation of the Bible. No, sir. They oppose it either because they don't want to see it because they don't want to entertain the idea that some people are not like them, or because they are afraid to be permissive amidt a society they think has uniformly closed its doors to homosexuality.

So your logic is as follows:

Even if a person explicitly states that the Bible is his reason for believing that gay marriage is wrong, goes to church every Sunday and celebrates Christian holidays, we should conclude that this individual is not, in fact, a religious bigot, but someone who merely looks and acts like one because he's under the influence of "social norms," when in fact, those norms are set by Christian fundamentalist viewpoints.

Do you not see the connection here? Those norms you're harping about come from Biblical puritanism and are hence being propped up and sustained by Christian fundamentalists. According to you, the average person will simply bend his beliefs to whatever societal norms dictate, so he's not a significant part of the problem. He's just a sheep who will follow his shepherd. And right now, that shepherd is Christian fundamentalism, which is why it is a fucking problem. That's why the fundamentalists are the root of the problem.

[Axis Kast]

Kast when 98% of the obscenity complaints to the FCC are coming from a single fundie organization you cannot argue the broader "average white guy" who has a smidgen of faith feeling oppressed by the anti Chrsitmas brigade. It is invariably the fundie that is most vocal and shakes things up. The average white guy is too complacent to make these vocal stands against the deemphasis on the religious nature of Christmas. So yes, when many here rail against the Fundies it is because they are the ones on the offensive not the average occasional church goer.

The average fundie isn't the one making life hell for homosexuals in the schools of this country. The average fundie isn't the one whispering to his neighbors about how they certainly hope whatshisface down the road sells to that "queer" couple. The average fundie may make the most noise in your opinion, but if you got rid of every Bible in the country tommorow, you'd still have a whole slew of people who would never even think about changing their opinions about homosexuality or abortion anyway.

Even if a person explicitly states that the Bible is his reason for believing that gay marriage is wrong, goes to church every Sunday and celebrates Christian holidays, we should conclude that this individual is not, in fact, a religious bigot, but someone who merely looks and acts like one because he's under the influence of "social norms," when in fact, those norms are set by Christian fundamentalist viewpoints.

Most of the people I know here on Long Island have two reasons for refusing to accept homosexuality: either they don't want to create an accepting atmosphere for fear someone they know will "turn gay," or their biogtry is knee-jerk; they abuse homosexuals because they find it funny. Nobody ever falls back on sermons from the pulpit or denunciations in the Scripture.

Do you not see the connection here? Those norms you're harping about come from Biblical puritanism and are hence being propped up and sustained by Christian fundamentalists. According to you, the average person will simply bend his beliefs to whatever societal norms dictate, so he's not a significant part of the problem. He's just a sheep who will follow his shepherd. And right now, that shepherd is Christian fundamentalism, which is why it is a fucking problem. That's why the fundamentalists are the root of the problem.

And my argument is that the root has become detached from the rest of the plant, yet somehow, that doesn't matter, since it's strong anyway. I seriously doubt whether challenging religion will ever change what's been created.

[Slartibartfast]

Mr. Comical Axi, I've noticed your latest trend to go to every thread you "disagree" with, and say "this thread shouldn't exist". You're doing that a lot, and it's annoying. You mention that everybody is blowing shit out of proportion, and a lot of bullshit like that after the first 10 posts that are little more than nodding "yeah these are assholes" or so.

This is a BBS. We post threads. People read other people's posts. People reply to them if THEY consider that it's relevant (and who are you to tell OTHERS what THEY should consider relevant). Could you please stop posting what amounts to little more than "You like to post these kind of things a lot! I don't lik them! Why don't you stop!".

[Durandal]

Most of the people I know here on Long Island have two reasons for refusing to accept homosexuality: either they don't want to create an accepting atmosphere for fear someone they know will "turn gay," or their biogtry is knee-jerk; they abuse homosexuals because they find it funny. Nobody ever falls back on sermons from the pulpit or denunciations in the Scripture.

And societal norms make them think that it's okay. Societal norms that are exacerbated by Christian fundamentalist influences.

Furthermore, you're ignoring the correlation between being non-religious and not holding such bigoted beliefs. If you're a fundamentalist Christian, your chances of being a bigot increase drastically. I don't know what problem-solving process you use, but in reality, something that drastically increases the chances of a random person being a bigot is a major part of the problem. I don't see why it's erroneous to identify Christian fundamentalism as such.

Do you not see the connection here? Those norms you're harping about come from Biblical puritanism and are hence being propped up and sustained by Christian fundamentalists. According to you, the average person will simply bend his beliefs to whatever societal norms dictate, so he's not a significant part of the problem. He's just a sheep who will follow his shepherd. And right now, that shepherd is Christian fundamentalism, which is why it is a fucking problem. That's why the fundamentalists are the root of the problem.

And my argument is that the root has become detached from the rest of the plant, yet somehow, that doesn't matter, since it's strong anyway. I seriously doubt whether challenging religion will ever change what's been created.

In other words, people bend to societal norms when it's convenient for your argument, but remain steadfastly ignorant when it is not. Regardless of why a person holds a particular bigoted belief, the fact remains that Christian fundamentalists tell them that it's okay. Just like they told racists in the 50's that they were just and righteous.

You're actually right, to a degree. People do adjust their attitudes with societal norms. But you seem to hold this strange belief that eradicating Christian fundamentalists from the US would not lead to a significant drop in racism, xenophobia and religious intolerance, which is plainly indefensible lunacy.

[Axis Kast]

And societal norms make them think that it's okay. Societal norms that are exacerbated by Christian fundamentalist influences.

Exacerbated by, but not completely dependant upon.

Furthermore, you're ignoring the correlation between being non-religious and not holding such bigoted beliefs.

No, I’m not. I acknowledge that plenty of fundamentalists are bigots. And just as you accuse me of ignoring fundamentalists as a prime cause for bigotry in the United States, I accuse you of ignoring close-minded people in general. You seem to have a need to explain bigotry as the result of a complex mixture of factors. Why? Close-mindedness isn’t a product of the Bible. The horrible fear that a society that accepts homosexuality will collapse in upon itself as everybody stops procreating has nothing to do with the Bible. The stupid and misguided presumption that accepting homosexuality makes one homosexual or implies that one would like to be the subject of homosexual attention is equally unrelated to the Bible. All of these things explain much of the opposition to homosexuality in the United States today.

If you're a fundamentalist Christian, your chances of being a bigot increase drastically. I don't know what problem-solving process you use, but in reality, something that drastically increases the chances of a random person being a bigot is a major part of the problem. I don't see why it's erroneous to identify Christian fundamentalism as such.

Don’t get me wrong; I’m not suggesting that blind fundamentalism is a completely positive force. On the other hand, I think you’re so eager to obtain a victory for the forces of rationality and secularism that you’ve come to utterly ignore irreligious attitudes – which are often just as dangerous.

In other words, people bend to societal norms when it's convenient for your argument, but remain steadfastly ignorant when it is not. Regardless of why a person holds a particular bigoted belief, the fact remains that Christian fundamentalists tell them that it's okay. Just like they told racists in the 50's that they were just and righteous.

Just because some Christian teachings encourage bigotry doesn’t mean all bigotry is a result of the same. You know that much, at least.

You're actually right, to a degree. People do adjust their attitudes with societal norms. But you seem to hold this strange belief that eradicating Christian fundamentalists from the US would not lead to a significant drop in racism, xenophobia and religious intolerance, which is plainly indefensible lunacy.

No. My point is that it would not have nearly the impact you and others here claim it would.

[Dark Hellion]

There will be no presents for you either Axis! Only coal!

[Stravo]

Kast you keep poointing to this silent majority of bigots and stupid sheep and we keep pointing to the vast movement of fundies that have coregraphed a campaign of letter writing, political pressure and vocal protests in order to push their agenda.

When you have 98% of ALL complaints to the FCC coming from a single fundie organization and fundies proclaiming that Bush has been annointed from on high and there is this mandate for their agenda from the election I know who the true enemy is. It isn't some shlub out on Long Island bashing gays while privately fantasizing what it must be like to suck cock.

Its that loud mouth preacher telling us that some guy who was nailed to a tree two thousand years ago is somehow more important than the following two millennia of progress no thanks to those same forces of Christ.

[SirNitram]

Simple and easy way to deal with Kast's bullshit.

Prove it, Axis. Prove there is this silent majority at all, and they're the ones behind it. Until you can do that, kindly go play in traffic.

[Axis Kast]

Kast you keep poointing to this silent majority of bigots and stupid sheep and we keep pointing to the vast movement of fundies that have coregraphed a campaign of letter writing, political pressure and vocal protests in order to push their agenda.

Because the two are only barely connected, and erradicating the one will not stop the other.

When you have 98% of ALL complaints to the FCC coming from a single fundie organization and fundies proclaiming that Bush has been annointed from on high and there is this mandate for their agenda from the election I know who the true enemy is. It isn't some shlub out on Long Island bashing gays while privately fantasizing what it must be like to suck cock.

Bush's victory wasn't just on the back of fundamentalists; he mobilized a goodly number of non-churchgoers who bought into his social values system as well. And that's the key. SD.net is focused on the fundies; the real scary thing, though, is that even those who forsake the Bible really do agree with the same ideas its more biogted readers espouse - but for entirely different (albeit no less stupid) reasons.

Its that loud mouth preacher telling us that some guy who was nailed to a tree two thousand years ago is somehow more important than the following two millennia of progress no thanks to those same forces of Christ.

This seems more like a rant against organized religion than anything else. I don't really think I have a response to that.

[Durandal]

And societal norms make them think that it's okay. Societal norms that are exacerbated by Christian fundamentalist influences.

Exacerbated by, but not completely dependant upon.

Your point? I never said that it was. I said that eradicating Christian fundamentalism would go a long way toward reducing the problem, not that it would solve it totally.

No, I’m not. I acknowledge that plenty of fundamentalists are bigots. And just as you accuse me of ignoring fundamentalists as a prime cause for bigotry in the United States, I accuse you of ignoring close-minded people in general. You seem to have a need to explain bigotry as the result of a complex mixture of factors. Why? Close-mindedness isn’t a product of the Bible. The horrible fear that a society that accepts homosexuality will collapse in upon itself as everybody stops procreating has nothing to do with the Bible. The stupid and misguided presumption that accepting homosexuality makes one homosexual or implies that one would like to be the subject of homosexual attention is equally unrelated to the Bible. All of these things explain much of the opposition to homosexuality in the United States today.

Yes, and therefore anything which cultivates close-minded attitudes is a part of the problem. In this case, Christian fundamentalism is a large cultivator of close-minded and xenophobic attitudes. So why is anyone wrong for attacking it as a major contributing source to the problem? ~40% of Americans believe that Genesis is the literal truth of creation, and therefore subscribe to literal interpretations of the Bible. These people are far more likely to be racist and xenophobic than anyone else.

Even if half of them reject every bigoted part of the Bible and believed in tolerance, you're still left with 20% of the population subscribing to these bigoted beliefs. You're telling me that that's not significant?

Don’t get me wrong; I’m not suggesting that blind fundamentalism is a completely positive force. On the other hand, I think you’re so eager to obtain a victory for the forces of rationality and secularism that you’ve come to utterly ignore irreligious attitudes – which are often just as dangerous.

What's wrong with that? Rationality and secularism are part of the solution. Anyone who opposes gay marriage, whether through religion or simple insecurity, is being irrational. Sure, they may coat their viewpoints with bullshit like "It's unnatural," but through any objective and rational analysis, they're clearly full of shit. It's a victory for objective thinking whenever one of these attitudes is defeated, regardless of the backing of that attitude.

You seem to be under the delusion that rationality and objectivity are only opposed to religion. They are opposed to anything which is irrational, and religion just happens to fall under that category. And religion which encourages societal regressiveness happens to earn a particular ire from rationalists.

Just because some Christian teachings encourage bigotry doesn’t mean all bigotry is a result of the same. You know that much, at least.

Yes I do, which is why I never argued that. I've argued that Christian fundamentalism is a major contributing factor in breeding bigoted attitudes. Your strawman is getting tiresome. Refuting the argument that Christian fundamentalism is a major contributor to xenophobic and racist attitudes by saying that the root of the problem is "close mindedness" is like saying, "The problem isn't that you're leaving food crumbs on the floor and living in filth; the problem is that cockroaches exist."

In other words, you're not wrong, but you're doing a good job of not providing anything useful.

No. My point is that it would not have nearly the impact you and others here claim it would.

Then you're simply being naïve.

[Tom_Aurum]

Um, kids, don't feed the troll... have you ever looked at Kast's title?

[The Yosemite Bear]

Kast when 98% of the obscenity complaints to the FCC are coming from a single fundie organization you cannot argue the broader "average white guy" who has a smidgen of faith feeling oppressed by the anti Chrsitmas brigade. It is invariably the fundie that is most vocal and shakes things up. The average white guy is too complacent to make these vocal stands against the deemphasis on the religious nature of Christmas. So yes, when many here rail against the Fundies it is because they are the ones on the offensive not the average occasional church goer.

the average white guy wants to know if he's going to get 8 days worth of cards from me.

[salm]

FOX news needs to be X-Rated. The minds of kids aren´t developed well enough to comprehend that most of the stuff they report consists of bullshit or is grossly exaggerated.

think about the kids.

[Lord Poe]

"Oh painful irony!"

My favorite holiday is attacked all the time by these jokers. Every Halloween there's a multitude of anti-Halloween Christian products made available, "CHRISTIAN" Haunted Houses that preach how bad it is to celebrate Halloween, movements to BAN Halloween if it falls on a Sunday (regardless of its historical placement and the reason behind it).

Oh, I feel so saaaaad about this.

[Darth Wong]

Kast when 98% of the obscenity complaints to the FCC are coming from a single fundie organization you cannot argue the broader "average white guy" who has a smidgen of faith feeling oppressed by the anti Chrsitmas brigade. It is invariably the fundie that is most vocal and shakes things up. The average white guy is too complacent to make these vocal stands against the deemphasis on the religious nature of Christmas. So yes, when many here rail against the Fundies it is because they are the ones on the offensive not the average occasional church goer.

The average fundie isn't the one making life hell for homosexuals in the schools of this country. The average fundie isn't the one whispering to his neighbors about how they certainly hope whatshisface down the road sells to that "queer" couple. The average fundie may make the most noise in your opinion, but if you got rid of every Bible in the country tommorow, you'd still have a whole slew of people who would never even think about changing their opinions about homosexuality or abortion anyway.

You're a fucking idiot. You're saying that even if the bulk of support for something comes from group A, the fact that all of it doesn't come from group A disproves the association.

Between 40% and 50% of Americans consistently poll as fundies, based on their belief that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old. If all of these people suddenly became liberals, you can bet your ass that gays' problems would virtually disappear.

[HemlockGrey]

If all of these people suddenly became liberals, you can bet your ass that gays' problems would virtually disappear.

x

I dunno, Kast doesn't strike me as the kinky type.

[Loner]

Hmmmm........