Settlers go illegal

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2004-12-21 12:39pm

Okey, anyone who please supported the settlements, go puke.

First article, there they go to hell.

haartz wrote:Analysis / Embracing civil disobedience

By Nadav Shragai

The Yesha Council had to choose between two contrary approaches on Sunday. One option, which the council termed "doing the minimum," was to continue to protest the disengagement within the framework of the law, which effectively meant accepting the evacuation of Gaza. The other was to gradually break the rules of the democratic game, leading to guaranteed clashes with the government and the army. The council chose the second option; Pinhas Wallerstein was merely its spokesman. There was no real agonizing.

The council's decision to call for mass violations of the Disengagement Law, even if the violators are sent to jail, is a direct result of the collapse of its earlier strategy, which was meant to bring about elections or a referendum before the disengagement. When Yesha leaders realized that this was not going to happen, they decided on a sharp change of direction: No longer would they seek broad public support, on the assumption that elections were in the offing. No longer would they try to "settle in people's hearts" in preparation for a referendum.

Now, the council is aiming at the already converted: the hundreds of thousands of settlers and the religious Zionist public. It is giving up - at least temporarily - on Tel Aviv and Gush Dan, to which its campaign had mainly been directed hitherto, and focusing instead on getting its own public into the streets. And this public has to be addressed in a different language: by terming the government "illegitimate" rather than refraining from doing so, by embracing nonviolent civil disobedience instead of rejecting it.

In a way, it is ironic. The person who first advocated using civil disobedience to prevent settlement evacuations, more than two decades ago, was Elyakim Haetzni. But for years, the Yesha Council refused to touch Haetzni's plans. Now, his fiercest opponents are adopting his ideas. Haetzni's dream was to fill Israel's jails with tens of thousands of willing detainees who would knowingly violate the law and be ready to pay the price. Haetzni wrote dozens of articles on this subject, drawing his inspiration from Martin Luther King and Gandhi. Now, his colleagues have even adopted his language: The Yesha Council's official statement also mentioned King and Gandhi.

But the real test of the new strategy will be in the field: Do the thousands who are supposed to fill Israel's jails really exist?

They can go to hell, they also cut off the soldiers water supply, the SAME SOLDIERS WHO ARE PROTECTING THEM.

Also... comparing the evacuation to the Holocaust.

Settlers slammed for orange stars to protest pullout

By Amiram Barkat, Haaretz Correspondent, and Haaretz Service

Settlers protesting the disengagement plan were condemned on Tuesday for their new tactic - orange Star of David badges, reminiscent to the yellow stars Jews were forced to wear during World War II.

Anti-Defamation League National Director Abraham Foxman issued a statement saying "the residents of Gush Katif are sending an appalling and misguided message to the people of Israel and the world by this public relations ploy, aimed at fostering attention to their opposition to the disengagement plan.

"While the setters have every right to peacefully and democratically protest this plan, likening the Holocaust to this political process, no matter how painful, has the effect of fueling Holocaust denial by de-legitimizing the unprecedented horror of the Shoah," the group said.

Labor MK Yuli Tamir submitted a bill that would make it illegal to use Holocaust symbols and images for purposes that are not educational or to perpetuate the memory of victims.

Shinui leader Yosef Lapid, a Holocaust survivor, said the tactics tarnish both the settlers and the memory of Holocaust victims. "Making someone move out of his home is sad, but its still not a concentration camp, nor the gas chambers nor the ovens at Auschwitz," Lapid said.

The Chairman of the Yad Vashem Holocaust Martyrs' and Heroes' Remembrance Authority called on Gush Katif-settlement bloc residents not to wear the star. Wearing it, he said, distorts historical facts and is disrespects the Holocaust.

Both come from Haartz:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/517058.html
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/517455.html

Ma Deuce · Post by **Ma Deuce** » 2004-12-21 01:10pm

I don't find this surprising: didn't many of the settlers actually rejoice at the death of Yitzhak Rabin and regarded his killer as a hero?

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2004-12-21 01:12pm

Yes, but they havn't tried to activily incite the legal religious population to help them, theres a big 'moving' to help the settlers, I'll see if I can find articles in english about this.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-12-21 01:13pm

I have heard very little positive about these settlers for years. They seem to be cut from the same fundie cloth as other similar "God said we're special" crowd. These fuckers have been at the heart of much of the issues in the peace making process.

Post by **Coyote** » 2004-12-21 01:45pm

THhe Settlers are the beating heart of the problem. Get rid of them and the probability of reaching a solution goes up a hundredfold.

The Religious Settlers are the worst-- there are a few non-religious Settlers that came in when the big immigration from Russia and the other Eastern European states broke up. Th Settlers movement sponsored a lot of campaigns to bring in Soviet Jews luring them with subsidized housing, very cheap, in the effort to boost their numbers.

It worked, sort of-- the Eastern European immigrants, many who had only the most tenuous connection to Judaism, settled in and were alarmed at the violence of the Arabs (after all, they had been told they were escaping anti-Semitism in Russia).

Most went back to Russia or moved to "secular Israel" (Tel Aviv, Beer-Sheva, etc). Some stayed, and are counted among the ranks of Settlers.

The Settlers like to point to those numbers and say that they are strong, but in truth a lot of those people would gladly take a cash bonus to move elsewhere...

irishmick79 · Post by **irishmick79** » 2004-12-21 02:02pm

The New York Times was saying that the Israeli army was preparing to shut down the Gaza strip in order to prevent pro-settlement protesters from crossing into Gaza from Israel and the West Bank. It's just weird that the army might be closing the border, not to keep the Palestinians out of Israel, but to keep Israelis out of Palestine. WTF?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-12-21 02:05pm

None of this should come as a surprise. These settlers have been unapologetically acting like assholes for decades. They are also the face that civilian Israel inadvertently presents to most of the Palestinians.

Post by **Edi** » 2004-12-21 03:28pm

Darth Wong wrote:None of this should come as a surprise. These settlers have been unapologetically acting like assholes for decades. They are also the face that civilian Israel inadvertently presents to most of the Palestinians.

And to a great deal of the world as well. Not in quite the same terms, but every time the Israeli government defends them, a lot of people elsewhere think that it is the height of irony that the people who suffered the Holocaust are now enacting policies born of the same thinking against others. And turn away in disgust. It doesn't help here that the leader of Finland's Jewish community can quite accurately be described with the term Zionazi fundamentalist asshat. And the ironic thing is, aside from him, every Finnish Jew I've seen in school and at work or in the public eye has been an upstanding, decent person.

Edi

tharkûn · Post by **tharkûn** » 2004-12-21 06:05pm

Unfortunately it is the asshats from both sides of the population that define what the other side sees. Hopefully these idiots will do something stupid enough during the protest that the hawk electorate will viciously eat them alive.

Oh tens of thousands of settlers are in jail ... damn thanks for making it easier to evict your sorry asses from the idiotic settlements.

Big Phil · Post by **Big Phil** » 2004-12-21 06:26pm

Is it possible that the wall being built around the West Bank is as much to keep the religious fundamentalist settlers out of Israel as it is to keep Palestinians out of Israel?

tharkûn · Post by **tharkûn** » 2004-12-21 06:28pm

The wall is being built to keep out the Palestinians, it has the added benifit of keeping the fundies out of the territories. Cutting the fundies loose in the terrritories is going to begin a bloodbath that only ends when one side or the other is dead.

Big Phil · Post by **Big Phil** » 2004-12-21 06:33pm

tharkûn wrote:The wall is being built to keep out the Palestinians, it has the added benifit of keeping the fundies out of the territories. Cutting the fundies loose in the terrritories is going to begin a bloodbath that only ends when one side or the other is dead.

It might require a threat of this magnitude, and the conviction to follow through on it, that would bring the religious wackos to reason. If Israel were to tell them, "we're giving the West Bank back to the Palestinians, either come back to Israel or you're on your own," they might see reason.

Or they might decide to stay and fight and end up getting slaughtered and killing a lot of Palestinians while they're at it... which do you suppose is more likely given this crowd?

Of course, I would be shocked if Sharon had the political willpower to do something like abandoning settlers to the mercy of the Palestinian authority, no matter how big a group of monkey spanks they are.

tharkûn · Post by **tharkûn** » 2004-12-21 06:50pm

Or they might decide to stay and fight and end up getting slaughtered and killing a lot of Palestinians while they're at it... which do you suppose is more likely given this crowd?

They'd fight. We are talking about people who beleive they are fulfilling God's destiny. Not to mention that they do have a crapload of trained fighters, access to hideous amounts of money, and already live under a seige mentality. Why on earth wouldn't they fight?

CJvR · Post by **CJvR** » 2004-12-21 08:45pm

The Jewish fanatics are as bad as the Islamic ones.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-12-21 08:48pm

You don't have to be more fantical when you got more firepower.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2004-12-21 11:31pm

It's times like this I wish we were under the rule of the Empire...

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2004-12-22 01:17am

tharkûn wrote:
They'd fight. We are talking about people who beleive they are fulfilling God's destiny. Not to mention that they do have a crapload of trained fighters, access to hideous amounts of money, and already live under a seige mentality. Why on earth wouldn't they fight?

Don't forget weapon caches filled to the brim with m16's.

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2004-12-22 01:42am

Ace Pace wrote:
tharkûn wrote:
They'd fight. We are talking about people who beleive they are fulfilling God's destiny. Not to mention that they do have a crapload of trained fighters, access to hideous amounts of money, and already live under a seige mentality. Why on earth wouldn't they fight?
Don't forget weapon caches filled to the brim with m16's.

That's what Sharon may be afraid of, in addition to loss of support through settler civil disobedience; God forbid the Settlers build up their own militias and start picking on the local Palestinians.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2004-12-22 01:54am

They ARE organized in militia's for self defense, and they do have weapons, theres 5000 cops tasked to evacuate them, 4 for every remaining settler.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2004-12-22 02:05am

Which would mean if they resisted and refused to move out, it would be a bloodbath. One that of course the line army units would win in a military sense. Some caches of M16's doesn't help when people come at you with Tanks and Gunships.

But that said, I doubt most line units WOULD have the will to go and slaughter hundreds of their own people. That I think is what they are counting on. Probably with these fundie asholes blanketing the media with allusions to the holocaust and being moved from their homes that "God promised them", in a state created to make sure the Holocaust could not happen again...

I just don’t think the Israeli Government has either the support or unified will to do what may need to be done…and that will lead to huge problems down the road.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2004-12-22 07:22am

The problem, is that allready thousands of soldiers have been 'signed' that they are willing to disobey evacuation orders, not reserves, line soldiers.

Also, they cut off their[IDF] water because the IDF refused to protect a illegal settlement (A differance in that it was never formally endorsed by the Israeli goverment when it promoted settleing)

Faqa · Post by **Faqa** » 2004-12-24 08:32am

I can do little more than "me-too" here, but I feel the need to say this - as an Israeli citizen and soldier I would dearly LOVE to give these guys the physical violence they crave. HOLOCAUST?! Fuck you guys, you lost my sympathy, if you ever had it. Ace - remind me again why we want these guys back in our country, instead of getting lynched by Palestinians?

Let's see, peaceful and, ah, non-peaceful resistance as well(the settlers have publicly said they'll also resist physically to an evacuation. Can't we just seal off the whole area?

One bright star, however...

Haaretz, today wrote:Bowing to public pressure, the organizers of the orange Star of David initiative announced yesterday they would stop distributing the orange stars, but said they would not call on people to stop wearing them.

On Wednesday, the Yesha Council of Settlements and MK Effi Eitam, together with several public figures, called on people to stop wearing the badge.

"For the moment, the badge has made its point, which was to shock people into thinking how Holocaust survivors in Gush Katif must feel these days," said Ronny Bakshi, one of the initiative's organizers, who admitted that opposition to the badge was greater than anticipated. "The Yesha Council can't help but condemn the matter, and I understand them. However, I will continue wearing the badge."

At any rate, the organizers of the initiative apologized to Holocaust survivors for their action.

Earlier in the day, Israel Defense Forces Manpower Division chief Major General Elazar Stern said settlers who wear an orange Star of David are Holocaust deniers.

In an interview on Channel 2's "Meet the Press," Stern called the phenomenon "madness," and noted "it will make it difficult for me to prevent soldiers from gloating over their [the settlers'] misfortune." Stern added that "these are not our people. Settlers who wear an orange star are Holocaust deniers, because if what was done in the Holocaust resembles what we are doing to them, it means the Holocaust was not so terrible or unique."

"I spoke to my parents [both of whom are Holocaust survivors] about it," Stern said. "When I spoke to them about the orange star they used the word `madness'," he said.

"Let it be clear to everyone that when they tell us to evacuate, we will evacuate, and no threats, no equation to anything will deter us from our job," Stern said.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/518459.html

Some sanity at least. But the damn THOUGHT of it....

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2004-12-24 09:04am

Ace Pace wrote:The problem, is that allready thousands of soldiers have been 'signed' that they are willing to disobey evacuation orders, not reserves, line soldiers.

*shrug*

Have them all discharged, dishonorably. Or let it be known in 7 days it WILL happen unless aid soldiers recant to their CO's. Post haste. Or in the case of officers above the rank of Lt, they are fired regardless.

I think the Government needs to remind the army THEY ARE THE BOSS. Not the relgious nuts, not the illegal settlers. If not a purge, then something to make the point clear.

Perhaps combined with a carefuly directed campaign villifying the Settlers as a small minority of nutter extremists who play on the memories of the 1940's (play the whole orange star thing up for all its worth) and who stand in the way of a real peace settlement AND who bite the hand that feeds them, specificaly their cutting off water to the IDF people who are dying for them out there.

You REALLY have to turn them into villians, showing that you are being very reasnoable and offering so much but they are lashing out at everyone. I dobut it would be possible frankly, but I can hope.

Of course you could always just withdrawl all the IDF units and make trading weapons or military hardware completly illegal. Seal their borders as well as the Palistinian areas off. Let the hardcore religious nutters fight it out between themselves.

Of course thats grossly unfair to the kids who grew up there and were spoonfed propaganda for decades, to delibeartly but them in a war zone...thankyou very fucking much morons.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2004-12-24 02:33pm

Chris, their doing so

Haartz wrote:IDF to oust troops who obey rabbis rather than officers

By Amos Harel

Chief of Staff Moshe Ya'alon said this week, during a briefing with company and regimental commanders serving in the Ramallah area, that the Israel Defense Forces would not consider ideological opposition a reason to exempt soldiers from participating in the evacuation of settlements. According to Ya'alon, any concession made to these soldiers would "legitimize gray refusal."

Ya'alon said that only soldiers whose families live in the settlements slated for evacuation would be exempted from participating in their removal. According to Ya'alon, soldiers should heed only one authority - that of their commanders, and not their rabbis.

"Any soldier who obeys an authority other than his commander will not be acceptable among our ranks. A platoon commander who hesitates will not be one of us. The only consideration will be of soldiers who will have to evacuate their own relatives. We will not send them to this mission," Ya'alon said.

"But there aren't going to be any discounts, neither for hesder students nor for residents of settlements, if they aren't relatives of the people who are going to be evacuated. If I post the skullcap-wearers to peripheral tasks, I will perpetuate gray refusal." The hesder students combine military service with yeshiva studies.

"Just as we were clear when we dismissed pilots and Sayeret Matkal [an elite special operations force] fighters who signed letters of refusal to serve in the territories, we will behave in the same way here. We cannot allow ourselves anarchy," said Ya'alon.

"There is great pain in implementing the decision about the settlements in the territories, but precisely for this reason it is necessary to be clear: In the army there is one authority and no other. Otherwise, a disaster could happen here, a disintegration. There are already rabbis who will come out with an explicit call against the refusers. I believe that it will be possible to persuade more rabbis who are now sitting on the fence."

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2004-12-24 05:30pm

Ahhh. Good show.