Thoughts on Treknology

[BrandonBray]

THOUGHTS ON TREKNOLOGY

I have been thinking a lot about Federation weapons technology as of late. As most of you may know, I hold fast to the idea that Star Wars can kick every single universe in sci-fi. I have crunched the numbers and, via a combination of technology and sheer numbers, there is not an empire, race, or organization from Star Trek, Babylon 5, Andromeda ~ whatever ~ who could possibly hope to win in an all-out confrontation against the Empire.

The technology of the Empire is simply too advanced and, even when there may be moments in which another race may have a technological edge, that edge is quickly dulled to nothing by number of ships the Empire can bring to any campaign.

All caps removed from thread title
Still, thoughts on Federation technology run across my mind and upon review of Federation weapons, here is what I have come up with:

PHOTON TORPEDOES:

I’ve been working on a new theory for Photon Torpedoes, based on the idea that Photon Torpedoes are NOT multi-megaton warheads.

Now, I know what kind of reaction this is going to get, but hear me out.

In ST-WOK Enterprise was hit by a PhoTorp fired by the Reliant, right near their bridge while their shields were down, and there was no evidence of a multi-megaton bomb having gone off (which would have turned Enterprise into confetti).

In ST-WOK Enterprise, firing from point blank range with no shields, damaged the Reliant's port warp engine and blew off the warp nacelle and took out the Reliant's own PhoTorp launchers. There was not evidence of multi-megaton detonations.

In ST-SFS Enterprise hit a Klingon Bird of Prey at close-range with two PhoTorps which failed to hole the decloaking BOP, even though their shields were down. There was also no evidence of multi-megaton detonations during this strike, or when the BOP hit Enterprise with a PhoTorp moments later.

In ST-TUC a cloaked BOP hit a Klingon D-7 type cruiser, holed the un-shielded D-7 but there was no evidence of a multi-megaton explosion, which would have turned the D-7 and Enterprise-A into confetti at that range, without shields.

ST-TUC Enterprise took multiple PhoTorp hits, but there was no visual evidence of massive explosions going off and, when one of the PhoTorps got through the shields, it did not explode like bomb… it DID blasted through the Enterprise-A like a cannonball, though. There was also no evidence of huge explosions when the BOP hit the Excelsior, either.

When Enterprise-A and Excelsior were firing around a dozen PhoTorps at the BOP, those PhoTorps pounded the BOP but there was no evidence for multi-megaton explosions against the cloaked/unshielded BOP, only secondary explosions as the PhoTorps ripped into the Klingon ship.

Countless STNG, DS9 and Voyager episodes reflect these same findings. While Riker and Data made comments about proximity detonations being able to cripple or destroy Enterprise-D, there was no evidence that this was the case in actual combat.

As a matter of fact, I cannot think of any instance in Star Trek history, in combat, that support the notion of PhoTorps being multi-megaton missiles/bombs.

We did see a PhoTorp punch the shields and destroy a BOP in "Yesterday's Enterprise" but it was more of a secondary explosion caused by the PhoTorp impact than main-line explosion produced by the PhoTorp detonating and hitting the BOP.

In "The Nth Degree" and "The Borg" it was noted that a proximity PhoTorp detonation could cripple or destroy Enterprise-D and in "Redemption, 2" Data used a PhoTorp detonation to reveal Romulan support for the Durass family.

These instances are the exceptions, NOT the rule. During the Klingon attack in "Way of the Warrior" we witnessed dozens of PhoTorp strikes that suggested impactor damage, not multi-megaton detonations. This was also the consistent throughout the entire Dominion War and the battle between Picard and Shinzon.

Voyager fired no less than three PhoTorps in the episode "Alliances", which all struck a small Kazon ship which was surrounded by mountains and situated next to a building. Not only did they fail to punch the shields, but there was no evidence of a multi-megaton explosion at all - no damage to the Kazon ship, no thermal or explosive damage to the building or village, no melting of the snow on the surrounding hillside or mountains.

So, after reviewing the nature of Photon Torpedoes from the whole of Star Trek’s run, I could not find one scrap of evidence to suggest that they are multi-megaton warheads, by their inherent nature in.

Yes, they can be used in such a manner, but they are not by their nature used like nuclear bombs in combat. In every episode of Trek, PhoTorps impact against shields, but rarely have we seen evidence of exterior explosions against shields that one would expect from a multi-megaton weapon. More often than not, what we do see is a flash of light or a glowing impact zone... and sometimes we may see a small explosion.

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Now, the Trabe/Kazon ship was right next to a building, but there was no air-burst created by the PhoTorp, as there would be with a high yield explosion. There was also no evidence if thermal heating of the atmosphere, no heat or radiation damage to the snow capped hills surrounding the Trabe/Kazon ship.

This type of incident is played out constantly in the universe of Star Trek, and I just cannot think of one incident in which a PhoTorp did any environmental damage consistent with a high yield, multi-megaton warhead.

By their nature a Photon Torpedoe:

1.) Photon Torpedoes produce a luminescent energy field around themselves, upon being fired – the nature of this field beyond visual effect has never been explained.
2.) PhoTorps can create a very small explosive flash upon impacting shields, or they will just produce a flash of light and/or glow.
3.) Yield on the PhoTorps can be reset via remote, to produce a broad energy yield – level 6 for example – suggesting that such an explosion is against their nature, as seen in “To the Nth Degree” or “Redemption, part 2.”
4.) Photon Torpedoes were often used to drill deep within the surface of planets, as seen in episodes like “Pen Pals.”
5.) Photon Torpedoes do not detonate in a fashion consistent with high yield explosives, such as Daisy Cutters, MOAB’s or nuclear weapons (Alliances).
6.) PhoTorp impacts against starship hulls usually result in penetration, blasting through the ship like a cannon ball, not a missile (Wrath of Khan, Search for Spock, Undiscovered Country, Yesterday's Enterprise, Starship Down, etc).
7.) PhoTorp tracking systems seem to be keyed to detonate the warhead upon penetration of the ship’s shields (Shattered Mirror).

At this point I am beginning to think that the energy field around a PhoTorp is some kind of plasma or charged particle field, generated and fed by the antimatter reserves aboard the PhoTorp. This visual effect has to be more than just cosmetic, otherwise it would simply be an unnecessary expenditure of energy, so I am thinking that the energy field helps to punch past shields and burn through armor/hull.

PhoTorps don’t seem to produce a broad explosive yield, unless specifically adjusted to do so, or when being used at warp speeds. I find no evidence and few comments made by crew, which suggests that using PhoTorps and multi-megaton bombs is common place.

Third, PhoTorps seem to be designed to specifically be effective in circumventing the defenses of a potential enemy. From the energy discharge seen against un-shielded starships, which fry electronics and damage systems, to their ability to drain power from shields upon impact, this is born out.

THOERY:

I believe a Photon Torpedo is a high-tech cannonball. The matter/antimatter fuel cells are not specifically designed for use as a multi-megaton explosive device (unless specifically detonated by remote or pre-programmed to detonate), rather they are designed to provide power for the Photorps’s engines and to produce an energy field around the torpedo.

The energy field around the Photon Torpedo appears to be designed to burn/vaporize matter the PhoTorp comes in contact with. In close-range or proximity combat, PhoTorps are always used as impactors, not bombs.

Against shields, in sub-light combat, PhoTorps seem to use their energy field to try and push past the shields of a starship, both draining the shields by forcing them to absorb the thermal energy of the PhoTorps luminescent energy field.

PhoTorps also seem to, if they succeed in fully or partially penetrating the shields, will use what little antimatter they have left, to detonate. Also, given the ranged nature of Photon Torpedoes, it appears as if they are programmed to expend all their energy based upon a computer estimate of time until impact, and when they exhausted the bulk of their fuel will detonate, unless malfunctioning.

They can be used as multi-megaton bombs, but only when fired at warp speed or used in long-range combat, beyond visual range.

With regards to the question of how fast a PhoTorp travels and how does it's velocity effect how much damage it does, I have done the math and established an answer.

I think the ideal situation is to use the battle from Star Trek VI the Undiscovered Country, in which MORE PhoTorps were used in combat than any other battle, save for maybe the battle against Shinzon in the movie Nemesis. Velocity of the PhoTorps in these scenes, I think we can all will agree, are constant in comparison to similar events seen in STNG or later.

I have chosen the incident in which Excelsior it hit by the cloaked Klingon Bird of Prey. This seems to be the ideal situation due to the fact that the PhoTorp comes from beneath the Excelsior, as we are looking nearly strait on at Sulu's ship.

In that scene we see a Klingon PhoTorp streaking toward Excelsior. We know that Excelsior has her shields up because, in the previous scene, Sulu had ordered the shields up and this impact produced no scar or visible damage to Excelsior after the hit. That being said, let's look at the evidence, shall we?

Pic

Here we see the impact zone. Using a bit of simple Geometry we can map-out the distance traveled and determine the length of the angled section by use of the formula (a^2 + b^2 = c^2). With a = 417 pixels and b = 82 pixels, the length c = 424.985 pixels, which we will round up to 425.

Now, according to the Star Trek encyclopedia Excelsior is 100 meters in height, 467 meters in length and 185 meters wide at the saucer. Given that the saucer is a perfect circle, no matter what point or angle you measure it from, the length from one side to the other will always be the same.

pic 2

Using the same formula from above in which the horizontal leg is 634 pixels wide and the vertical leg is 49 pixels high, we can determine the width of the saucer section in this scene to be 635.89 pixels wide. Rounding up this figure becomes 636 pixels, which equals 185 meters. So, every pixel seen in the image is equal to 0.29 meters, which we'll round up to 0.3 meters.

As the PhoTorp traveled 425 pixels, we now know that this translates to a distance of 123.8 meters, or 124 meters when rounded to the nearest whole number. Now, what about time?

It took the PhoTorp 6 frames NTSC video at 29.97 frames per second (we'll use 30 fps), to travel the 124 meters seen on-screen. That translates to 0.2 or 1/5 of one second. So, to get our one-second figure, we simply multiply 124 by 5 and get 620 meters per one second, and this is our velocity. The website [link=www.ditl.org/]www.ditl.org/[/link] says that the PhoTorp has a mass of 247.5 kg when not loaded, and only 245.5 when you add in the matter/anti-matter. This figure does fit the 400 kg per meter cubed formula that Mike Wong, Brian Young, and all I use. Still, in order to get the maximum effect of the kinetic impact of a PhoTorp, I think I will round this figure up to 300 kg.

Ke = (1/2) * (mass) * (velocity^2)

Ke = (1/2) * (300 kg) * (620 m/s^2)

Ke = 57,660,000 Joules.

That is equal to 13.7 kg of TNT... nowhere near a megaton, nor kiloton, not even one single ton.

So, now we know that PhoTorps do not travel at a high enough velocity to produce a megaton yield impact during combat, and that a low-end estimate on their velocity is about 600 m/s.

This works perfectly with my own theory, in which it is the sustained energy field which lets the PhoTorp burn past the shields and then through the hull of a target, most of the anti-matter expended to generate that field with only a small amount held in reserve and used to detonate with about as much force as a conventional missile.

When not used in this fashion, the energy field is still needed in order to pass through a Federation ship's shields, but is fired off more like a bomb or a mine and is remote detonated by a starships or uses pre-programmed proximity fuse.

In combat, the "cannon ball" theory still seems to hold true.

Taking another look at the TOS era BOP, which is only 98 meters long, thus the explosion in STUC is only between 25 and 30 meters in diameter. Gas and ejectia produced was roughly the same length of the BOP, sure, but the main explosion was not. The only exception to this is when Enterprise's modified PhoTorp hit the weapon launcher on the BOP.

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Also, it should be noted that this BOP was hit by SEVEN direct PhoTorp strikes, with it's shields down, before she exploded, an explosion caused by internal damage.

You will also note that the progression of frames show no movement of the background and almost no movement for any of the ship, suggesting that the Enterprise, BOP, and Excelsior were at a near standstill, AND at combat ranges comparable to any seen in TNG, DS9, VOY, or ENT.

PHASER BEAMS:

The incident at Turkana IV still stands as the best example of determining how effective Federation Phasers are. We know what we’re vaporizing, i.e. granite rock. We have a known average heat of fusion for silicon and all other pertinent figures and so we can use this to estimate the possible output of Starfleets primary short-range weapon.

By their nature, Phasers CUT / BURN / VAPORIZE metal, rock, etc. via the NDF chain reaction, which as been well established by Mike Wong. Geordie said they needed two-hours to reset the Phasers for drilling and we can only assume that these modifications were to boost power or to optimize the NDF effect for destroying granite. The link below has Geordie’s direct quote:

http://www.holonet.iwarp.com/legacy2.mov



Phaser bars area bout 5 to 6 meters wide. This being the case, the Phaser beam should also be no more than 6 meters in diameter.



Here we see the ground where the Phaser beam will strike.



Upon hitting the ground the Phaser begins to work its magic, the NDF effect causing the vaporization of the sand and rock. As you can see in this image, the effect of the beam shows that it is 49 pixels wide using the formula a^2 + b^2 = c^2. This means that a pixel is equal to 0.101 meters.



The size of the hole turned out to be 272.2 pixels. This translates to being 27.68 meters.

This means that the shaft would have been 28 meters in diameter. The effect of the beam suggests that the shaft would be cone shaped v=Bh/3.



Volume of a cone is v=Bh/3, or ((pi*r^2)(L))/(3) => ((3.142*16.9^2)(1600))/(3) = 320,969.2 m^3.

Geordi counted down from 1.3 to 1.6 kilometers in 9 seconds, from time stamp 00:35:05 to 00:35:14. At this time frame, it would have taken Geordi an average of 48 seconds to count from 0.1 kilometers to 1.6 kilometers and, as such, the Phaser drilling likely did take 48 seconds.

This being the case, Enterprise was able to vaporize a time average of 6686.9 cubic meters (15,580,000 kg) per second.

This suggests that, after two-hours of modifications, Enterprise was able to customize the power output and NDF effect to be equal to 206 Terawatts.

So, upon review, Turkana IV puts the MAXIMUM power of Federation Type-X Phasers at about 200 Terawatts.

Oh, and I should note that I am being generous, here. You see, there are those who have argued, with quite a bit of success I might add, that the hole shown above does not represent the actual true diameter of the shaft, given that the beginning of the hole as shown above was larger due to the fact that Phasers were initially vaporizing sand and dirt... not hard granite, and thus debaters have suggested that after a few meters the hole would have been a continual shaft only six meters wide. It is for this reason I refer to the above as a maximum, rather than a minimum.

If we went with the minimum, that would reduce the average volume destroyed to only 315 m^3... which would reduce the output to only about, what, 12 Terawatts? So, as you can see, the minimal output immediately falls back into the same range as those figures Mike posted here at SD.net.

POINTS OF CONTENTION:

Every time I talk to anyone about this, they always bring up "The Die is Cast." Despite the fact that Mike has asked and answered this dozens of times, it continues to keep coming up.

Today I am going to prove that, using the figures above, that everything in "The Die is Cast" CAN be shown to be in accordance with what I have posted above.

First, we must disprove the absurd claims that a lot of Trekkies make, which is the notion that the Romulans and Cardassians would have vaporized or melted a whole 1/3 of the planet's surface.

"We know that the TDiC fleet would have had to release at least 4E28 joules of energy to vaporize the Founder planet's crust, and that they estimated they would be able to do this in one hour."
Mike Wong.

I checked this statement from Mike and, while my figures came out a little different, they were both in the same order of magnitude ~ 1.0*10^28 joule ~ so we'll use Mike's figures because Mike’s figures.

Now, even if we presume that they were not going to vaporize the surface, after all one does not need to vaporize the surface in order to "destroy" the crust, the figures are still outrageously out of whack with numbers well established taken from the rest of StarTrek canon... but only if we assume that vaporization took place of an entire 1/3 of the planet's crust.

Let us assume that the Founder's planet was about the same size of earth, with a diameter of 12,715.43 km, which works out to be 6,357,715 meters in radius. Crust thickness of the Earth is 38 kilometers.



We can use the formula (4/3) [pi] r^3 for both figures, in order to determine the total volume of just the crust.

( (4/3) [5.1415] (6,357,715)^2 ) - ( (4/3) [5.1415] (6,340,000)^2 ) = 9.4*10^11 cubic meter of rock remain.

One third of that volume would be 6.28*10^11 which would work out to be 3.14*10^11, or 7.3*10^14 kilogram. So, just to MELT a whole 1/3 of crust would still require 1.9*10^25 joule.

Divide that by 30 ships, over one hour, and that would mean that every ship in the Romulan/Cardassian fleet would have had to have been pumping out 1.79*10^20 joule per second, ever second, for one hour.

This would require firing 1332 Photon Torpedoes at maximum theoretical yield every second, from every single ship... and we know that a Galaxy class starship only carries a payload of 250 PhoTorps, so right away we know that this is not probable.

As a matter of fact, Romulans and Cardassian ships do not seem able to fire more than 10 PhoTorps per second. This means that no more than 300 PhoTorps could be released at any one given second. This means that, after removing the PhoTorps, the Cardassian Compression Phasers and Romulan Disruptors would have to dist out 1.79*10^20 joule.

If each ship can fire five beams at once, like a Galaxy class Starship seems able to do when firing forward only, then that would mean that each beam put out by the Romulans and Cardassians would have to pump out 1.19*10^18 watt.

That would mean that Romulan and Cardassian weapons have an output of 1,193,333 Terawatts.

If this were the case, why would they even need or use PhoTorps?

More importantly, we have already established that Federation Phaser have an output of no more than 200 Terwatts when digging into a planet.

Think about that... the incident in TDIC suggest that Romulan and Cardassian weapons are 6000x more powerful!

This is also not probable.

When one looks at the facts, combined with the visual evidence from the show, it becomes obvious that the weapons of the Romulans and Cardassians (ergo the Federation) cannot be as powerful as TDIC suggests... at least not when it comes to raw firepower per given starship.

Now, let's take what we have learned from canon evidence and see if we can make this fit and prove just how effective PhoTorps can be!

If we use the figures from Turkana IV and apply them to the Obsidean / Tal'Shiar fleet, then their combined Phaser output per second would have been only 3.0*10^16 joule. Combined PhoTorp bombardment was only 3.0*10^19 joule and, when these numbers are combined, the difference is so small that it doesn't even change the magnitude.

This level of destruction is nothing to sneeze at.

After all, this is a total destructive output of 7.2 gigatons and, over an hour, that would be a maximum of 1.1*10^22 joule.

That is still enough firepower to inflict a lot of damage across the surface. Though, this would mean that the Romulans and Cardassian ships would have had to have been stripped down to be nothing but flying weapon platforms but... I think that was kinda what they were looking to do. :p

So, you see, when one uses full yield PhoTorps (24 megatons) and Phasers with NDF effect equal to 200 Terawatts, these figures that I have listed above WOULD let the Romulans and Cardassians destroy the surface and inflict heavy damage to 1/3 of the planet's crust... just not the whole crust ~ i.e. down 38 some-odd kilometers.

Even if they didn't have enough PhoTorps to do the job, one could still explain this using tactics.

Imagine using Phasers to drill deep into the crust and then, with a combination of PhoTorps, cause magma to come shooting out and layer the surface is lava. That would destroy the surface and, it could be that this is exactly what the Romulan commander meant.

CONCLUSSIONS:

Federation Photon Torpedoes are used as kinetic impactors in close-range combat. The matter/antimatter in the PhoTorp is used more to generate the energy field around the PhoTorps, but in long-range and warp speed combat can be used as multi-megaton warheads. Reasons impactor mode is used in short/medium-range combat is to avoid damaging one’s own ship and inflicting casualties and other friendly vessels... which is logical given the flying-wall formations used in Federation fleet actions during the Dominion War. Federation Phasers have a destructive output of no more than 200 Terawatts, when used on pours, igneous rock.

[Terr Fangbite]

photons=cannonballs

Wow. That makes sense somehow. Fits with the Nelson era tactics that Star Trek Seem to be using.

[BrandonBray]

photons=cannonballs

Wow. That makes sense somehow. Fits with the Nelson era tactics that Star Trek Seem to be using.

You are correct.

When one considers that Star Trek II set the standard for all things Trek which followed, and given that director Nicholas Meyer based the movie upon the Patrick O'Brian novels (recently released as the movie Master and Commander), it becomes obvious that Meyers set the whole thing up so that PhoTorps would be cannonballs.

Since STWoK all PhoTorps have followed this same pattern.

Of course, PhoTorps can be used a multi-megaton bombs... but ONLY at long range. Dialogue from the show clearly suggests that full yield PhoTorps in close-range are just as dangerous to a Federation Starship as it would be to an enemy target.

This, of course, also lends to Federation shields having a far lower burst-output than we have previously thought, but would fall in line with Mike's low-end shield output figures for plasma and particle interaction.

It only makes sense that PhoTorps would be set as impactors in close-range combat, and as nukes in long-range combat or while fighting at Warp speeds where their velocity lets them out-run the blast.

This all seems to fit.

Cannonball theory explains low-yields in close-range combat.

Energy field ~ maybe plasma based ~ surrounding a PhoTorp is designed specifically to burn through a target’s shields and hull, to inflict as much impact damage as possible. We saw this in STTUC when PhoTorps were able to partially bypass Enterprise-A’s shields and inflict physical damage to the hull, until shields were compromised and a PhoTorp blasted right through the saucer section.

We can see this again in STGEN when the Duras sisters were pounding the Enterprise-D.

If someone has a better explanation I would love to hear it through. So far, the cannonball theory is the only one which explains the odd behavior and low yield of PhoTorps in combat.

[harbringer]

As far as I casee your figures are good and the theory sound however the empire kicking the cultures butt might be a bit fanciful. All things considered very complete and some interesting things to consider the next time I get a "but a phototorp will fry the executor....."

Thanks for the work

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Very good analysis. 200 Terawatt phasers make even the lowest estimate of Imperial Turbolasers(6100 Terawatts) a dozen times higher.

Oh, and the Culture would kill the Empire, then eat the Empire. Alive.

[BrandonBray]

Yes, I think the above evidence does suggest that a single PhoTorp would NOT be able to do much damage to a Super Star-Destroyer. Even at full yield in long-range combat, the Executor's shields are too powerful.

Also, Federation shields seem vulnerable to kinetic impact weapons, given their low shield performance in ramming incidents. In theory, powerful rail-gun cannon could punch Federation shields.

As for other races... well, I was thinking about the races seen in TV series and movies, not novels etc.

I don't think it is fanatical, however, to say that the Empire would beat the navies of other universes. I’m a big B5 fan, but even I know when my preferred universe if beat.

Starfleet, Romulans, HighGuard, EarthForce, Minbari, Cardassians, Dominion, Narn... you name 'em, none of these guys could hope to even survive a full-blown conflict against the Empire. I have spent years looking at the numbers and the Empire always comes out on top, because the technology of the Empire/Old Republic is simply too advanced.

Even the Borg, Shadows, and the Vorlons would be crushed. This is not to say that the Shadows, Vorlons and the Borg are technologically inferior however, but it seems pretty clear that none of these ancient races have the sheer numbers, resources, or fleet strength to stand toe-to-toe against the Empire.

If one goes by the numbers, all calculations show that the Empire will win against any government in sci-fi cinema.

[Dalton]

I think the Asgard from Stargate SG-1 could give the Empire a run for its money, at least in the speed department.

This is a very interesting conclusion, Brandon. But, just out of curiosity, how would you rationalize the quote from The Pegasus where it is stated that it would take most of the PhoTorps on board the E-D to shatter the asteroid housing the Pegasus?

[dragon]

We have also seen large scale explosion with the torp when they are fired at long range. Encounter at far point, skin of evil to name a couple.

[The Original Nex]

Hey Brandon, mind if I use this analysis in a Trekkie bashing I'm having?

[BrandonBray]

I think the Asgard from Stargate SG-1 could give the Empire a run for its money, at least in the speed department.

True, but once again we have an advanced alien race without the fleet size or resources to survive battle with the Empire. The Asgard lost all of their holdings in their home galaxy and they have now established a foothold here, to avoid the Replicators. As such, they haven't the resources or fleet strength to face the Empire, nor would they for hundreds of centuries to come.

This is a very interesting conclusion, Brandon. But, just out of curiosity, how would you rationalize the quote from The Pegasus where it is stated that it would take most of the PhoTorps on board the E-D to shatter the asteroid housing the Pegasus?

No rationalizing needed, really.

Destroyed the asteroid from "The Pegasus" would have been a task Enterprise-D could have conducted at long-range.

Cannonball style impactor mode only seems to apply in short/medium range combat where the blast could damage one's own ship or other friendly vessels, and/or where active jamming is being used during combat and thus reducing the effectiveness of PhoTorp targeting systems.

Since the asteroid is not moving and since there is no jamming like one would experience in combat, Enterprise-D would have been afforded the luxury of just sitting back and blasting the asteroid from a safe distance.

Though, it is worth noting that this scene suggests that, of the potential 32 megaton yield derived from the PhoTorp’s matter/antimatter storage tanks, the vast majority of that fuel would seem to fuel the luminescent energy field around the PhoTorp, leaving only enough antimatter left over to produce a thermonuclear detonation of about three-megatons.

That... or Riker just wanted to be sure that the asteroid just wasn’t destroyed, but rather it was atomized. This kinda’ fits, given Riker’s feelings with regards to the Pegasus and what it would reveal in his past and the danger (legal and tactical) represented by phase-cloak technology.

We have also seen large scale explosion with the torp when they are fired at long range. Encounter at far point, skin of evil to name a couple.

Correct, but in both of those instances PhoTorps were used at long-range. In "Encounter at Far Point" they were used while at Warp speeds and in "Skin of Evil" Enterprise-D was in high orbit, firing at a planet several hundred miles away.

In both of these instances Enterprise is well far enough away that a 24 megaton explosion could not hope to reach them. It is for this reason alone that the PhoTorps were used as thermonuclear weapons and not impactors. This also explains why Data would have adjusted the yield when firing PhoTorps at the Romulans in “Redemption, Pt. 2.”

When one reviews combat scenes throughout Star Trek, combat almost always takes place at impulse speeds and at tactical ranges that would be considered between close and point-blank. I cannot recall a time in Star Trek history in which combat was beyond 50 kilometers. STWoK, STtUC, STGen, STNem and all the canon episodes have depicted combat taking place at ranges well within the blast envelope of multi-megaton weapons.

Thus it still makes sense, to me anyway, that to avoid damaging themselves and their allies during fleet actions, Federation vessels would use PhoTorps in impactor mode, rather than bomb mode and dialogue from the show also seems to support this theory, most notably in “The Nth Degree.”

I think that, after thinking about all the things you know about Photon Torpedoes that, you will agree that my theory demonstrates that a Photon Torpedo can be used with surgical precision as an impactor in close-range combat, or be used with brute force as a multi-megaton bomb but only at long-range.

Hey Brandon, mind if I use this analysis in a Trekkie bashing I'm having?

Uh... okay, Nex.

Sure!

Hope it helps you in your debate.

[CJvR]

photons=cannonballs

Wow. That makes sense somehow. Fits with the Nelson era tactics that Star Trek Seem to be using.

No not really, if the Photorps were that powerful att long range then nothing would survive long enough to reach the traditional knife fight.

[The Original Nex]

photons=cannonballs

Wow. That makes sense somehow. Fits with the Nelson era tactics that Star Trek Seem to be using.

No not really, if the Photorps were that powerful att long range then nothing would survive long enough to reach the traditional knife fight.

Shows how bad Trek tactics are....

[Alan Bolte]

Not at all. The real question is, can they hit each other at the range required? Appearances point to no. I'm working off rather dull memory on this, but Treks ships seem to close pretty fast, stop on a dime, and start slugging it out at close range. Torpedoes fired at long range can most likely be dodged and/or spoofed.

[BrandonBray]

Good points.

I think that this speaks more to guidance and targeting systems than firepower and tactical ranges, however. Least we all forget that a Mk. IV PhoTorp could not even track simply ionized gas emissions from a BOP in STtUC, until it was modified by Spock and McCoy. The hit to miss ratio in "Way of the Warrior" and other battles during the Dominion War also suggest that, whether due to active jamming or poor targeting systems, PhoTorps have a limit to their accuracy in combat.

We know the following:

1.) Most battles take place at impulse speeds as low as 50 to as high as 200 m/s.
2.) Battles almost always seem to degenerate to short-range combat.
3.) Standard issue PhoTorps have limited targeting variables, but can be modified for mission specific tasks.
4.) PhoTorps have been shown to miss their targets, even when engaging at close to point-blank range.

Active jamming during combat may be preventing PhoTorps from locking onto a target at short/medium-range, and make the use of PhoTorps at long-range precarious at best.

This, I imagine, brings us to the nature of PhoTorp targeting systems. This being the case, we must first pose a question:

Why do PhoTorps miss their targets?

Let us review the variables and see if we can explain this.

First, we know that Federation shields can absorb most forms of EM radiation and that radiation handling limits for Federation shields are much higher than their ability to handle kinetic impacts, charged particles, or plasma.

Since many kinds of targeting systems, like radar for example, use EM radiation to send a signal and interpret that signal based upon a reflection, IF shields absorb that signal than any/most EM based sensors would become useless once a target raises her shields.

We know from dialogue and from the STNG and DS9-TM's that EM based sensor technology is used extensively aboard Starfleet vessels and that those technologies can be jammed or rendered useless by many forms of interference, even ionization in a planet's atmosphere.

This fact may be very relative to ship-to-ship combat and the effective targeting ability of a Photon Torpedo, because the targeting sensors would not be receiving any telemetry back from a target, once that target raises her shields, due to said sensor beams being absorbed by those same shields.

Thermal targeting would be equally useless, given that the energy field around a PhoTorps would render any onboard thermal targeting system ineffective, thermal targeting systems hopelessly obscured by the weapon's own heat signature.

Visual targeting may be of key use, but even this system would likely be obscured by the weapon's luminescent energy field.

Starships seem to routinely switch to manual targeting, which suggests that PhoTorps maintain a subspace link to a mothership, and it is the mothership's sensors which guide her to her target... essentially "painting" the target, as we do today with our own laser-guided weapons.

Another factor to consider is that it may be possible for Phasers to knock down a PhoTorp fired at long-range, before a targeted vessel enters the effective blast envelope of a 24 megaton explosion. Since the ability to target incoming projectiles and their trajectory is reduced the closer an enemy target is to her attacker, this fact may explain why battles seem to constantly degenerate down to short-range combat ~ beyond a certain distance PhoTorps become useless because they're just too easy to shoot down.

Whether it is one or all the above factors, the evidence still points to PhoTorps being used as impactor weapons with small conventional sized warheads in short/medium-range combat.

PhoTorps can be used as multi-megaton bombs, but canon evidence only shows this being the case when firing at stationary targets at long-range, slow-moving targets at long-range, or while at warp speeds when a ship is outside the blast envelope as soon as the weapon leaves the ship.

This all being the case, I stand by my theory because it still does seem to fit the majority of evidence available.[/i]

[dragon]

Not at all. The real question is, can they hit each other at the range required? Appearances point to no. I'm working off rather dull memory on this, but Treks ships seem to close pretty fast, stop on a dime, and start slugging it out at close range. Torpedoes fired at long range can most likely be dodged and/or spoofed.

We have seen them hit other ships at high ranges. In the ep. where Picard is chasing the renagde federation ship. The ship managed to hit the Cardy ship at a pretty good range. As for why they fight at such short range even in SW the ships on screen appears to be fighting next to each other at low speeds. Most likely done because the general population of viewers wouldn't be able to grasp long range high speed tatics spacecraft would use. Its all fine and dandy reading about battles occuring across light seconds but watching thoses type of battles might be a little boring.

[Stark]

Christ dragon, we have to deal with ALL the evidence, not that one bit. Of COURSE they can hit things miles and miles away; the fact remains that the never, ever do in combat. This has been done to death a million million times.

[dragon]

Hey I was just answering the question the person asked. And I know its been talked about.

[BrandonBray]

We have seen them hit other ships at high ranges. In the ep. where Picard is chasing the renagde federation ship. The ship managed to hit the Cardy ship at a pretty good range. As for why they fight at such short range even in SW the ships on screen appears to be fighting next to each other at low speeds. Most likely done because the general population of viewers wouldn't be able to grasp long range high speed tatics spacecraft would use. Its all fine and dandy reading about battles occuring across light seconds but watching thoses type of battles might be a little boring.

Well, we know that at the time of this battle, that Cardassian technology was not as advanced as Federation technology, born out by the Enterprise-D being able to hack the Cardassian's prefix codes at long-range. This could have allowed - at that time - the USS Phoenix to target and destroy Cardassian ships at range more readily than if the Cardassians had been in possession of jamming and security technology comperable to those aboard the Phoenix, Enterprise-D, or more advanced races like the Romulans, Klingons, and Ferengi. This likely allowed the battle to be conducted at range by the Phoenix. Also, as stipulated in the episode, Phoenix was in possession of an advanced and powerful sensor suite that was not common place for most Federation vessels, not even the Enterprise-D.

As for ranges in Star Wars, the Battle of Endor shows ranges of several hundred kilometers (if not thousands of kilometers), being used in combat and we know from documentation that jamming fields were so dense as to make ranged combat impractical. As for long-range combat being boring, they did show combat beyond visual range in Babylon 5, most noteably in "The Long, Twilight Struggle" and it was not boring at all, because they cut back and forth between the two grounds and showed cause and effect of their weapons fire.

[brianeyci]

Also, Voyager has shot at a ship from orbit (I don't know the episode name, wouldn't help anyway, it had something to do with a Kazon peace meeting and the ship Voyager shot at was attacking the meeting). I believe Voyager was shooting photon torpedoes.

But the Kazon were not nearly as advanced as Voyager. So, it fits in nicely with the ECM theory, that torpedoes cannot fire against other ships with/able to use ECM.

It doesn't mean that torpedoes are dummy, or that they are useless. In ST:V, a torpedo was "locked onto Kirk's co-ordinates". Being able to hit a Cardy ship from that far away says that they must have some sort of tracking system, or the gunner was incredibly lucky. Just that the tracking system isn't reliable enough to be used in massive fleet engagements like we see in DS9.

Brian

[Stark]

For long range strikes they'd need midcourse updates etc, so they're being used as cruise missiles. This is of course well supported by our own modern technology. At close range perhaps the torps simply don't have the maneuverability to effectively retarget the closer targets? The mods in STVI could have been to run more fuel to the drives instead of saving for the warhead, since they just wanted a marker to shoot at.

I mean really, if they COULDN'T hit targets at a light-second we'd all laugh our asses off. The fact remains that this isn't an effective combat tactic for any ST powers; the attack on DS9 would've been much cooler with standoff weapons.

[SCVN 2812]

About intercepting torpedoes, its worth mentioning that in Wrath of Kahn when Reliant's torpedo tube starts glowing Kirk calls out for phasers and someone, Sulu, I think says its too late. This was a short ranged scenario but it does lend support for the idea of torpedoes being interceptable at long ranges or with sufficient warning.

In Generations Worf confident they could shoot down a missile head towards a system's sun with an 11 second travel time if they had time to lock phasers on it.

So shorter ranged combat would have the benefits / risks of torpedo interception not being a factor and probably more accurate targeting of subsystems for a quicker kill.

[Jon]

Was Veridian III M Class, making it about 1 AU from it's star? That means the Enterprise can lock onto an object which can traverse 93 million miles in 18(?) seconds and shoot it down, from it's standpoint before it hits the star (in the few seconds they would have after locking on)?

I've been awake for the last 30 hours, and am annoyingly tired- I don't know what the hell I'm talking about really... if someone could expand on that?

[BrandonBray]

Also, Voyager has shot at a ship from orbit (I don't know the episode name, wouldn't help anyway, it had something to do with a Kazon peace meeting and the ship Voyager shot at was attacking the meeting). I believe Voyager was shooting photon torpedoes.

Yes. This was the episode "Alliances" in which Voyager stuck a Kazon ship with three PhoTorps, while the Kazon ship was right next to a building. The PhoTorps did not produce any effect that would be consistent with a multi-megaton detonation and, indeed, the effects of the PhoTorp impacts failed to destroy the Kazon ship or even damage the building the Kazon ship was next to, but clearly show that a PhoTorp can strike a small target who does not have the jamming technology one would find with more advanced races.

More and more I think about it, the more it looks like PhoTorps are sent to their target using a combination of onboard sensors (which seem limited), and having their targets painted by their motherships.

For long range strikes they'd need midcourse updates etc, so they're being used as cruise missiles. This is of course well supported by our own modern technology. At close range perhaps the torps simply don't have the maneuverability to effectively retarget the closer targets? The mods in STVI could have been to run more fuel to the drives instead of saving for the warhead, since they just wanted a marker to shoot at.

Agreed. Combine this with jamming technology used during combat, and it is no wonder that PhoTorps miss their targets. Also, I have never noticed any feature aboard a PhoTorp which suggest maneuvering thrusters to help adjust course. Though, I freely admit that such thrusters may be hidden beneath panels.

About intercepting torpedoes, its worth mentioning that in Wrath of Kahn when Reliant's torpedo tube starts glowing Kirk calls out for phasers and someone, Sulu, I think says its too late. This was a short ranged scenario but it does lend support for the idea of torpedoes being interceptable at long ranges or with sufficient warning.

Actually, it was Spock who called out "Too late." I still do not think Kirk was ordering his crew to fire at the PhoTorp, instead to target the Reliant... but I could be wrong and given the subjective nature of dialogue, I think the idea that Kirk was ordering his crew to shoot down the PhoTorp is a valid one.

In Generations Worf confident they could shoot down a missile head towards a system's sun with an 11 second travel time if they had time to lock phasers on it.

I've been awake for the last 30 hours, and am annoyingly tired- I don't know what the hell I'm talking about really... if someone could expand on that?

I always had a problem with that. Since the missile would have needed warp ability to reach the star as quickly as Worf said... how could Phasers reach it in time if Phasers travel at or bellow C? Maybe Worf misspoke and meant 11 seconds before the missile jumped to warp.

Damn Klingons.

Again, the wonderful world of the subjective nature of dialogue.

[Stark]

I would suggest that we have seen torps maneuver, either to hunt cloaked ships or breaking into formation. This suggests some manner of drive system; its notable that this is the execption rather than the rule and usually they simply fly in a straight line. And miss.

In combat, yields could be constained by reload times; if their ability to handle antimatter is poor, loading more particle pairs into the containment field could take a very long time, whereas in combat they need rapid fire.

[dragon]

Does anyone rember what Geordi says about loading anitmatter when he was taken prisoner by the Pakleds. Been to long since I seen the episode