Aw what tha hell! Time for a classic SpaceBattles Debate!

[Ghost Rider]

Time to poke the newbie.

POKE!

[SirNitram]

When the Archwizard's died, Faerun was completely altered.

When one Enclave returned, Faerun faced the worst ecological disaster in memory as they reshaped the climate to their tastes.

They can create new planes of existance.

Their servants can steal entire layers of existing planes, and defeat demonic hordes.

They can move around the planes at will.

They have successfully slain a true-blue Greater God.

All this only proves arrogance and stupidity of Netherese Archwizards.

Hey, power corrupts, absolute power is kinda neat.

Welcome to SD.NET!

[SAMAS]

Assuming the Machamp isn't eaten, or swatted aside like the insect it is. The Tarrasque is very, very big.

And a Machamp is very, very strong. Move-a-mountain-with-one-hand(it has four) strong, according to the Yellow PokeDex.

Do you have any evidence showing a Machamp actually moving a mountain, or can we assume that some liberties were taken in writing the Yellow PokeDex?

Taken by who? The game's creators? That's like saying Saxton took liberties in writing the AoTC ICS. (Hint: the game came out first)

First lesson of Pokemon: These guys put out a lot of power, even in the anime. Pikachu alone has destroyed a small army of robots, tanks, and other machines, often in only one shot. Pokemon attacks have wrecked buildings, shattered boulders, and ripped trees from the ground(and because of type immunity the actual target wasn't even budged), sometimes at the same time(It's in the episode: Power Play, when Gary's Umbreon battles an Alakazam).

In the anime, the balance between Man and Nature is always held by Nature. Simply put, the Humans' cities exist because the Pokemon let them. Every time construction has threatened Pokemons' habitat(or even habitats under construction. These guys build forests as they see fit), the incedent has ended in the destruction of the Humans' project, and once even sank a city.

There's a thought: Tarrasque vs. the Giant Tentacruel of Porta Vista.

You'd have to get past the Tarrasque's natural resistance to magic first. Sorry.

Not a problem. Unoun spell out J-U-M-P, Reality says: "How High?"

And this is functionally different from magic how? Why would the Tarrasque's natural resistance (and in many cases, immunity) to magic not work against the magic on the Unoun? Because you say so? A sorcerer spells out F-I-R-E-B-A-L-L, and Reality says: "How Hot?"

Still don't bother the Tarrasque none.

That's the difference between the Unoun and just Magick. The Unoun don't have to spell anything(i.e. spellcasting), they just do(That was a joke based off of how the Unoun are shaped similar to the letters of the English Alphabet. Check the video/DVD cover for the 3rd Movie, and you can see five Unoun spelling out the name ENTEI). We're not talking about shooting fireballs at it. I'm talking about turning it into crystal, or just picking the sucker up and dropping it in another dimension. The Unoun can do all of that.

[SirNitram]

So the Unoun can cast Imprisonment and Gate.... I'm supposed to be impressed?

You have this arrogance thing going on with Pokemon. You seem to think they shouldn't be bound by the defenses of other genre's, sort of like claiming a Phaser must go through SW shields. Altering Reality == Magic. Even the Alter Reality power for deities can be stopped by enough magic resistance.

[Deimos Anomaly]

Some past episodes where SAMAS claimed victory via the wall of ignorance method:

Pokemon vs T Rexes

Pokemon vs Skynet

Pokemon vs MK.33 BOLO

Pokemon vs Godzilla

Pokemon vs US Carrier Battlegroup

These threads are but a few of many.

[Hotfoot]

Do you have any evidence showing a Machamp actually moving a mountain, or can we assume that some liberties were taken in writing the Yellow PokeDex?

Taken by who? The game's creators? That's like saying Saxton took liberties in writing the AoTC ICS. (Hint: the game came out first)

First lesson of Pokemon: These guys put out a lot of power, even in the anime. Pikachu alone has destroyed a small army of robots, tanks, and other machines, often in only one shot. Pokemon attacks have wrecked buildings, shattered boulders, and ripped trees from the ground(and because of type immunity the actual target wasn't even budged), sometimes at the same time(It's in the episode: Power Play, when Gary's Umbreon battles an Alakazam).

In the anime, the balance between Man and Nature is always held by Nature. Simply put, the Humans' cities exist because the Pokemon let them. Every time construction has threatened Pokemons' habitat(or even habitats under construction. These guys build forests as they see fit), the incedent has ended in the destruction of the Humans' project, and once even sank a city.

There's a thought: Tarrasque vs. the Giant Tentacruel of Porta Vista.

So you have no evidence of a Machamp actually moving a mountain with one hand? It's a simple request. Stats in D&D for strength are easily converted into real-life numbers. "Moving mountains" is not. In fact, strength that can move mountains is often considered to be poetic license, hence the question concerning liberties being taken. It's easy to romanticize such things, and to exaggerate for the sake of emphasis. As such, I await visual evidence of such incredible strength, or, barring that, hard numbers.

And this is functionally different from magic how? Why would the Tarrasque's natural resistance (and in many cases, immunity) to magic not work against the magic on the Unoun? Because you say so? A sorcerer spells out F-I-R-E-B-A-L-L, and Reality says: "How Hot?"

Still don't bother the Tarrasque none.

That's the difference between the Unoun and just Magick. The Unoun don't have to spell anything(i.e. spellcasting), they just do(That was a joke based off of how the Unoun are shaped similar to the letters of the English Alphabet. Check the video/DVD cover for the 3rd Movie, and you can see five Unoun spelling out the name ENTEI). We're not talking about shooting fireballs at it. I'm talking about turning it into crystal, or just picking the sucker up and dropping it in another dimension. The Unoun can do all of that.

It's still magic, and the Tarrasque is still highly resistant, if not immune in many cases, to magic. What makes you think that the Unoun would be able to penetrate this resistance in order to turn it to crystal or drop it to another dimension before it tears them to shreds as a part of his balanced breakfast?

[Alyrium Denryle]

Any ray, or bolt attacks that hit the Tarasque have a 30% chance of bouncing back at the caster as well.

[Alyrium Denryle]

I see that samas has given up.

concession accepted

[Bob McDob]

Pokemon.... ::shutters:: sorry, I don't watch stuff like that, it goes against my ethics and morals, sort of like Britany Spears music and such...

Britney.

For those who don't follow the game, a Magnemite is a metal ball about a foot in diameter and weighing 13 pounds, with an eye-sensor in the center, a pair of screws under the eye, and a pair of horseshoe magnets on the sides. A Magneton is what happens when three Magnemites join together(or in the anime version, when one Magnemite buds off two more). It's an Electric type, also gaining the Steel type in Gold/Silver/Crystal.

Wouldn't the Magnemites erase all the Porygons and shit like that?

[Bob McDob]

You are such a killjoy.

Let it be known that I kill more than joy! ::looking through the BANNED thread on the Science forum, trigger finger getting really itchy::

*sics Bob on IDMR's feet*

:(

[SAMAS]

Hmm, I seem to have missed this thread a few times.

Give me a second.

[SAMAS]

So the Unoun can cast Imprisonment and Gate.... I'm supposed to be impressed?

You have this arrogance thing going on with Pokemon. You seem to think they shouldn't be bound by the defenses of other genre's, sort of like claiming a Phaser must go through SW shields. Altering Reality == Magic. Even the Alter Reality power for deities can be stopped by enough magic resistance.

Not quite. You're missing the point.

These are not spells. There are no incantations, rituals, or components. There is no use of external power. The Unoun just do. They don't imprison you in crystal, they turn your body to crystal.

Here's an example from Pokemon 3:

Ash-Tachi have entered the Hale mansion to rescure Ash's Mother, who was taken by Entei to be Molly's mother. The inside of the house has been covered in a fine layer of rough crystal. But as Ash prepares to climb the stairs, the entire room transforms innto an endless expanse of crystal veins and globes, with smooth crystal blocks floating in midair as the stairs(it's not just an illusion. The first block Ash steps on actually sinks a bit under his weight). They climb the steps, and come out of a crystalline flower that opens into a vast rolling plain under a pinkish sky, Trees can be seen in the distance, and high in the sky, a few more of the vein-like structures can be seen far away beyond the clouds.

Molly watches them as they enter the transformed mansion, and says to Ms. Ketchum that she would like to be a trainer too, but doesn't believe that she can. Entei tells her that she need only believe, and it will be so. Molly leans against Ms. Ketchum, and closes her eyes as Entei turns and sinks into the floor As Entei flys downwards, a crystalline form of Molly's body appears on his back, and solidifies into Molly herself(It should be noted that Molly is really still lying in bed upstars, her head resting on Ms. Ketchum's lap). Molly worries that she's not old enough to be a trainer, and Entei tells her that if she believes, she will be old enough . Molly's body re-crystalizes, and reshapes into an adult form(late teens/early twenties). Molly challenges Ash to a battle, but Brock takes the challenge, hoping to keep her busy while Ash and Misty get Ms. Ketchum. They battle as Ash and Misty move up another set of blocks to the next level.

Meanwhile, Molly wakes up, talks to Ms. Ketchum, and closes her eyes again. Ash and Misty have arrived at a beach with a flower-filled plain behind it. Crystalline forms of Molly and Entei appear, and Molly challenges them again. Misty takes her on this time, and Molly's body shrinks until she's about Misty's age(around 11-13). They decide to o a straight Water Pokemon fight, so Molly causes the ocean to rise up and flood the entire area, yet Ash, Misty, and the others can still breathe.

Looking over the scenes again(I have the DVD, so what?), I realized that none of this was the Unoun's doing. At least, not directly. This was all the doing of Molly and Entei, whom the Unoun created. After all, Entei(again, a creation of the Unoun) was able to go against them when they went amok.

In other words, the Unoun can basically hand out God-like Omnipotence, or create those with similar power.

[SAMAS]

Do you have any evidence showing a Machamp actually moving a mountain, or can we assume that some liberties were taken in writing the Yellow PokeDex?

Taken by who? The game's creators? That's like saying Saxton took liberties in writing the AoTC ICS. (Hint: the game came out first)

First lesson of Pokemon: These guys put out a lot of power, even in the anime. Pikachu alone has destroyed a small army of robots, tanks, and other machines, often in only one shot. Pokemon attacks have wrecked buildings, shattered boulders, and ripped trees from the ground(and because of type immunity the actual target wasn't even budged), sometimes at the same time(It's in the episode: Power Play, when Gary's Umbreon battles an Alakazam).

In the anime, the balance between Man and Nature is always held by Nature. Simply put, the Humans' cities exist because the Pokemon let them. Every time construction has threatened Pokemons' habitat(or even habitats under construction. These guys build forests as they see fit), the incedent has ended in the destruction of the Humans' project, and once even sank a city.

There's a thought: Tarrasque vs. the Giant Tentacruel of Porta Vista.

So you have no evidence of a Machamp actually moving a mountain with one hand? It's a simple request. Stats in D&D for strength are easily converted into real-life numbers. "Moving mountains" is not. In fact, strength that can move mountains is often considered to be poetic license, hence the question concerning liberties being taken. It's easy to romanticize such things, and to exaggerate for the sake of emphasis. As such, I await visual evidence of such incredible strength, or, barring that, hard numbers.

You say that like it makes a difference.

Considering that both (A), this is on an 8-bit Portable system, and (B) moving a mountain tends to have a bad effect on the surrounding area, the opportunity, much less the need, to move a mountain never comes up.

However, there is also the reason for the PokeDex in the first place. Red and Blue(Ash and Gary) are sent out not only to participate in the league, but are also collecting information for Professor Oak. When one is doing research for one of the most respected Scientists on the planet, embellishment has little, if any place in the PokeDex discriptions.

And this is functionally different from magic how? Why would the Tarrasque's natural resistance (and in many cases, immunity) to magic not work against the magic on the Unoun? Because you say so? A sorcerer spells out F-I-R-E-B-A-L-L, and Reality says: "How Hot?"

Still don't bother the Tarrasque none.

That's the difference between the Unoun and just Magick. The Unoun don't have to spell anything(i.e. spellcasting), they just do(That was a joke based off of how the Unoun are shaped similar to the letters of the English Alphabet. Check the video/DVD cover for the 3rd Movie, and you can see five Unoun spelling out the name ENTEI). We're not talking about shooting fireballs at it. I'm talking about turning it into crystal, or just picking the sucker up and dropping it in another dimension. The Unoun can do all of that.

It's still magic, and the Tarrasque is still highly resistant, if not immune in many cases, to magic. What makes you think that the Unoun would be able to penetrate this resistance in order to turn it to crystal or drop it to another dimension before it tears them to shreds as a part of his balanced breakfast?

Because he can't get through their forcefield? The Unoun may be a little single-minded, but they're not dumb. They also hand out omipotence to their playmates for kicks.

[Hotfoot]

So you have no evidence of a Machamp actually moving a mountain with one hand? It's a simple request. Stats in D&D for strength are easily converted into real-life numbers. "Moving mountains" is not. In fact, strength that can move mountains is often considered to be poetic license, hence the question concerning liberties being taken. It's easy to romanticize such things, and to exaggerate for the sake of emphasis. As such, I await visual evidence of such incredible strength, or, barring that, hard numbers.

You say that like it makes a difference.

Considering that both (A), this is on an 8-bit Portable system, and (B) moving a mountain tends to have a bad effect on the surrounding area, the opportunity, much less the need, to move a mountain never comes up.

So you have no actual evidence supporting that statement, even from the anime? Come on, we've never been treated to a scene where a machamp gets to deadlift something? Surely we could get some rough numbers from that, couldn't we?

However, there is also the reason for the PokeDex in the first place. Red and Blue(Ash and Gary) are sent out not only to participate in the league, but are also collecting information for Professor Oak. When one is doing research for one of the most respected Scientists on the planet, embellishment has little, if any place in the PokeDex discriptions.

That's your opinion. Ash and Gary are young children, not respected scientists. If they are, in fact, the ones gathering the research, you could very easily add in embellishment or a poetic phrase to drive the point home. If you don't have any direct evidence, just say so. As it is, you're relying on the field reports of a couple of kids. Gee, and we've never known kids to ever exaggerate...

It's still magic, and the Tarrasque is still highly resistant, if not immune in many cases, to magic. What makes you think that the Unoun would be able to penetrate this resistance in order to turn it to crystal or drop it to another dimension before it tears them to shreds as a part of his balanced breakfast?

Because he can't get through their forcefield? The Unoun may be a little single-minded, but they're not dumb. They also hand out omipotence to their playmates for kicks.

Omnipotence? That's a very powerful word, mister SAMAS. Are you absolutely sure you'd like to use that? How about some evidence of this supposed omnipotence...you know, destroying planets with a thought, travelling through time at a whim, changing the past without any repurcussions on the timestream, destroying all reality and rebuilding it from the ground up as they see fit, that sort of thing.

For the record, Unoun magic is just that, magic. Just because there are no incantations, fancy gestures, or whatnot does not mean that it is not magic. Your stubborn refusal to see that does not change things. Magic is magic is magic. Unless you can show that it is definatively not magic of any kind, we have no choice to accept that it is, in fact, magic, as it behaves in all ways like magic.

[SirNitram]

Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2002 8:37 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SirNitram wrote:
So the Unoun can cast Imprisonment and Gate.... I'm supposed to be impressed?

You have this arrogance thing going on with Pokemon. You seem to think they shouldn't be bound by the defenses of other genre's, sort of like claiming a Phaser must go through SW shields. Altering Reality == Magic. Even the Alter Reality power for deities can be stopped by enough magic resistance.


Not quite. You're missing the point.

These are not spells. There are no incantations, rituals, or components. There is no use of external power. The Unoun just do. They don't imprison you in crystal, they turn your body to crystal.

Here's an example from Pokemon 3:

Well, your definition is wrong. Very wrong. The novel The Nether Scroll makes it clear the incantation, the rituals, components, all the things you foolishly think make something a 'spell', are just an illusion. The magic is the effect. This is the definition the Netherese used. This is the definition reality uses, when it comes to magic resistance. Deal with the fact your universe isn't all-powerful.

Looking over the scenes again(I have the DVD, so what?), I realized that none of this was the Unoun's doing. At least, not directly. This was all the doing of Molly and Entei, whom the Unoun created. After all, Entei(again, a creation of the Unoun) was able to go against them when they went amok.

In other words, the Unoun can basically hand out God-like Omnipotence, or create those with similar power.

Uh-huh. A few nineth level spells are 'God-like omnipotence'. Hell, turning someone to crystal isn't even particularly uber, the spell is Polymorph Any Object.

Here's a hint: All of the things you have ascribed to Pokemon so far, with the sole exception of control of large regions of climates, is possible for the household servants of an Archwizard. The control of climate is Archwizard level(And they do it on larger scales, thanks to Worldweave). Even IF there was Godlike power in Unoun, so? Karsus casts Avatar. Kills the Unoun. Now he has the power. Game over for the Pokemon.

[SirNitram]

Basics for SAMAS to consider before he resumes making an ass of himself:

Magic Resistance applies to all supernatural abilities and spells. What's a supernatural ability, Mr. Nitram? In AD&D, it's anything that couldn't happen in the real world. A dragon flying, thanks to their immense wings, is a natural ability. A Tanar'ri's planeshift is a supernatural ability.

Avatar Spell: Kills gods. Transfers the divine essense and portfolio to caster. No known saving throw(IE, defense). Slew the goddess Mystryl, the person who provides the magic the spell was cast from. The only thing she could do was suicide with the Weave of magic, thus causing Karsus to briefly be a God without power to sustain the city he was on.

Turning things to crystal: 7th level spell, Polymorph Any Object. Far from omnipotence.

[SAMAS]

So you have no evidence of a Machamp actually moving a mountain with one hand? It's a simple request. Stats in D&D for strength are easily converted into real-life numbers. "Moving mountains" is not. In fact, strength that can move mountains is often considered to be poetic license, hence the question concerning liberties being taken. It's easy to romanticize such things, and to exaggerate for the sake of emphasis. As such, I await visual evidence of such incredible strength, or, barring that, hard numbers.

You say that like it makes a difference.

Considering that both (A), this is on an 8-bit Portable system, and (B) moving a mountain tends to have a bad effect on the surrounding area, the opportunity, much less the need, to move a mountain never comes up.

So you have no actual evidence supporting that statement, even from the anime? Come on, we've never been treated to a scene where a machamp gets to deadlift something? Surely we could get some rough numbers from that, couldn't we?

Actually, they never have shown a Machamp deadlift anything.

The two closest examples are from it's lower forms. Pictures of Machokes playfully lifting bouders over their heads(TCG card), and a scene from the Anime, where a Machoke catches a boulder(roughly 10-20 feet in diameter) rolling down at a group, and tosses it over the side.(Shell Shock)

Then there's the scene where a Meowth kicks a boulder of similar size, also rolling, and split it in half(The Purr-fect Hero), or a Blastoise stops a charging tank, then blasts it off the ground with it's water cannons(Beach Blank-out Blastoise), or when a Psyduck tekekinetically tosses a crane several miles away(Lights, Camera Quack-tion!), or when Charizard and Onix stop a runaway tank that could dig a tunnel through a mountain in a few minutes(Tanks a lot), or when Heracross tosses another tank into the air(A Shadow of a Drought).

In fact, that's one of the few things said in the Pokedex discriptions in the game that is not shown in the anime, either directly or indirectly.

However, there is also the reason for the PokeDex in the first place. Red and Blue(Ash and Gary) are sent out not only to participate in the league, but are also collecting information for Professor Oak. When one is doing research for one of the most respected Scientists on the planet, embellishment has little, if any place in the PokeDex discriptions.

That's your opinion. Ash and Gary are young children, not respected scientists. If they are, in fact, the ones gathering the research, you could very easily add in embellishment or a poetic phrase to drive the point home. If you don't have any direct evidence, just say so. As it is, you're relying on the field reports of a couple of kids. Gee, and we've never known kids to ever exaggerate...

We've also never known ten-year-olds to go out into the wilderness alone with a living weapon their only protection, walk from city to city, with their only companions, at best, other kids who also left home at a similar age, and may not have been home since then(Ash has been travelling for about five years, and has only been home about three times, and at the longest, for two months when he was training for the Indigo League).

But more to the point, we have never known Red/Ash and Blue/Gary, in any incarnation(game, anime, or any manga), to exaggerate or embellish. Why the hell do you think Oak trusted them to do it in the first place?

It's still magic, and the Tarrasque is still highly resistant, if not immune in many cases, to magic. What makes you think that the Unoun would be able to penetrate this resistance in order to turn it to crystal or drop it to another dimension before it tears them to shreds as a part of his balanced breakfast?

Because he can't get through their forcefield? The Unoun may be a little single-minded, but they're not dumb. They also hand out omipotence to their playmates for kicks.

Omnipotence? That's a very powerful word, mister SAMAS. Are you absolutely sure you'd like to use that? How about some evidence of this supposed omnipotence...you know, destroying planets with a thought,

Nope, just creating worlds.

travelling through time at a whim,

That would be Celebi.

changing the past without any repurcussions on the timestream,

Again, Celebi. Then again, It seems that Pokemon operates on the Fixed Timeline principle, as in any Time Travel has already happened. In Pokemon 4-Ever, Ash runs into a boy who was pulled from the past, and the kid turns out to be Professor Oak. Right before the beginning of the adventure, Oak speaks to Ash about the one time he saw Suicune before(which later happens), and after hanging up, Oak wonders if he should've warned Ash about what was about to happen.

destroying all reality and rebuilding it from the ground up as they see fit, that sort of thing.

They go straight to the rebuilding as they see fit.

For the record, Unoun magic is just that, magic. Just because there are no incantations, fancy gestures, or whatnot does not mean that it is not magic. Your stubborn refusal to see that does not change things. Magic is magic is magic. Unless you can show that it is definatively not magic of any kind, we have no choice to accept that it is, in fact, magic, as it behaves in all ways like magic.

When was the last time you read a comic book, Nitram?

Would you consider Charles Xavier or Jean Grey to be magicians? No.

What about Galactus or the Silver Surfer? Not at all.

The Spectre? Uh-uh!

Yet they have done many of the same things, sometimes even on a larger scale, that the Unoun have.

It mak look, walk, and quack like a duck, but in Pokemon, simply calling it a duck would be a bit... Well, you know...

[SAMAS]

Here's a hint: All of the things you have ascribed to Pokemon so far, with the sole exception of control of large regions of climates, is possible for the household servants of an Archwizard. The control of climate is Archwizard level(And they do it on larger scales, thanks to Worldweave). Even IF there was Godlike power in Unoun, so? Karsus casts Avatar. Kills the Unoun. Now he has the power. Game over for the Pokemon.

You are mistaking similar effect for cause. A fireball thrown by a wizard and one tossed by a Pyrokinetic are very similar, maybe even down to damage and area of effect, but guess which one will still hit you if it passes through an anti-magic cloud?

Or the difference between a shot from a Battletech PPC, and the RIFTS magic spell Sub-Particle Accceleration. The effect is the same, but someting invulnerable to Magic(like the Tarrasque) would still be in pain after getting shot by a PPC.

And good lick finding the Unoun, much less killing them.

[Kuja]

You are mistaking similar effect for cause. A fireball thrown by a wizard and one tossed by a Pyrokinetic are very similar, maybe even down to damage and area of effect, but guess which one will still hit you if it passes through an anti-magic cloud?

A fireball is a fireball is a fireball, regardless of source. You're comparing two identical attacks and saying one has a built-in advantage.

And good lick finding the Unoun, much less killing them.

Yes, that's part of this battle discussion, isn't it?

[SirNitram]

Here's a hint: All of the things you have ascribed to Pokemon so far, with the sole exception of control of large regions of climates, is possible for the household servants of an Archwizard. The control of climate is Archwizard level(And they do it on larger scales, thanks to Worldweave). Even IF there was Godlike power in Unoun, so? Karsus casts Avatar. Kills the Unoun. Now he has the power. Game over for the Pokemon.

You are mistaking similar effect for cause. A fireball thrown by a wizard and one tossed by a Pyrokinetic are very similar, maybe even down to damage and area of effect, but guess which one will still hit you if it passes through an anti-magic cloud?

Or the difference between a shot from a Battletech PPC, and the RIFTS magic spell Sub-Particle Accceleration. The effect is the same, but someting invulnerable to Magic(like the Tarrasque) would still be in pain after getting shot by a PPC.

And good lick finding the Unoun, much less killing them.

I'm sorry, SAMAS, but you're wrong. AD&D Magic Resistance, Antimagic Shells, and Dead Magic Zones suppress all supernatural abilities, which INCLUDE Pokemon powers. I explained this, and you began a strawman. I repeat, it does not matter. An Antimagic shell makes a Pikachu a small yellow rodent that talks, and nothing more. Will you accept the fact that your little anime is not godlike? These are the rules of AD&D, and when it comes to determining the powers of AD&D critters, like the Tarrasque and Netherese mages, they are used.

I repeat: The Nether Scroll conclusively proves your definition of spell to be false.

And, despite your wanking of the Unoun, their hiding means nothing. Avatar reached across a dozen planes of existance to slay Mystryl, and she still could do nothing. Given the Unoun are in the physical realms, it'll be easy as hell.

[SAMAS]

You are mistaking similar effect for cause. A fireball thrown by a wizard and one tossed by a Pyrokinetic are very similar, maybe even down to damage and area of effect, but guess which one will still hit you if it passes through an anti-magic cloud?

Or the difference between a shot from a Battletech PPC, and the RIFTS magic spell Sub-Particle Accceleration. The effect is the same, but someting invulnerable to Magic(like the Tarrasque) would still be in pain after getting shot by a PPC.

And good lick finding the Unoun, much less killing them.

I'm sorry, SAMAS, but you're wrong. AD&D Magic Resistance, Antimagic Shells, and Dead Magic Zones suppress all supernatural abilities, which INCLUDE Pokemon powers. I explained this, and you began a strawman. I repeat, it does not matter. An Antimagic shell makes a Pikachu a small yellow rodent that talks, and nothing more. Will you accept the fact that your little anime is not godlike? These are the rules of AD&D, and when it comes to determining the powers of AD&D critters, like the Tarrasque and Netherese mages, they are used.

No, you've forgotten the most important thing about this:

Pokemon ain't Dungeons and Dragons. You cast Antimagic Shell on a Pikachu, and you still get shocked(Those little dots on a Pikachu's cheeks generate the electricity.). A Flareon will still roast you(Internal flame sac). A Machoke will still punch you into the next area code(It's just freakishly strong).

Being immune to magic will not stop MewTwo from picking you up and telekinetically twisting you into a pretzel. He's a Psychic. The Unoun are, two. Pokemon is more technology than magic. This is a place with the technology to convert objects and beings into computer data and store them.

I repeat: The Nether Scroll conclusively proves your definition of spell to be false.

NOTE: The Nether Scroll has Jack and Shit to do with Pokemon, on even the most basic of principles(Something that does, by the way, is something like the Tarrasque's invunlerabliity to Fire).

And, despite your wanking of the Unoun, their hiding means nothing. Avatar reached across a dozen planes of existance to slay Mystryl, and she still could do nothing.

How? A sword(or similar weapon) is going to do little, as they're too small, and way to fast.

Mental assaults? You don't want to go there.

Energy attack? Good luck getting past their shield. It two the combined gifted power of both Molly(remember, Molly was literally shaping reality on her own whims throught the movie) and Entei to stop them, and even then, the best it did was calm them down and convince them to leave.

Except for the fact that he's greatly outnumbered. Unoun is a plural term. There are scores, if not hundreds, of them. Kill one, and the rest of them take you down.

[SAMAS]

You are mistaking similar effect for cause. A fireball thrown by a wizard and one tossed by a Pyrokinetic are very similar, maybe even down to damage and area of effect, but guess which one will still hit you if it passes through an anti-magic cloud?

A fireball is a fireball is a fireball, regardless of source. You're comparing two identical attacks and saying one has a built-in advantage.

Not really. The big difference is that with magic stiffled, the Mage is in trouble, while the Pyrokinetic will just smile.

[Kuja]

No, you've forgotten the most important thing about this:

Pokemon ain't Dungeons and Dragons. You cast Antimagic Shell on a Pikachu, and you still get shocked(Those little dots on a Pikachu's cheeks generate the electricity.). A Flareon will still roast you(Internal flame sac). A Machoke will still punch you into the next area code(It's just freakishly strong).

HOW do they generate electricity? You're comparing the two on an unfair basis,IE one's attacks will not affect the other, while the anything the other does will pound on the one. You're acting like a possessed fanboy.

Being immune to magic will not stop MewTwo from picking you up and telekinetically twisting you into a pretzel. He's a Psychic. The Unoun are, two. Pokemon is more technology than magic. This is a place with the technology to convert objects and beings into computer data and store them.

Again, bullshit. You're using slanted rules to try and give pokemon the advantage. And the actual fighting has nothing to do with technology.

NOTE: The Nether Scroll has Jack and Shit to do with Pokemon, on even the most basic of principles(Something that does, by the way, is something like the Tarrasque's invunlerabliity to Fire).

Look at this! You're picking and choosing what applies and what doesn't! Can you even SEE the fanboy nature of this?

How? A sword(or similar weapon) is going to do little, as they're too small, and way to fast.

Mental assaults? You don't want to go there.

Energy attack? Good luck getting past their shield. It two the combined gifted power of both Molly(remember, Molly was literally shaping reality on her own whims throught the movie) and Entei to stop them, and even then, the best it did was calm them down and convince them to leave.

From what I'm reading, the moment the mage casts Avatar, the battle's over.

Except for the fact that he's greatly outnumbered. Unoun is a plural term. There are scores, if not hundreds, of them. Kill one, and the rest of them take you down.

Bullshit again! You're padding the pokemon's abilites! Do you even SEE that you're doing this?

[Kuja]

Not really. The big difference is that with magic stiffled, the Mage is in trouble, while the Pyrokinetic will just smile.

Again, you're saying that one set of rules applies while another does not. You can't pick and choose.

[SirNitram]

<Snip>

Allow me to paraphrase you, SAMAS.

"I GET TO SET THE RULES SO POKEMON WILL RULE HAHA YUO = FAGOT"

Suck my dick. When determining the powers of AD&D critters and their defenses, I use AD&D rules and canonicity. When I determine the defenses of Pokemon creatures, I use Pokemon rules.Tthat's called a fair debate. It's not my fault Pokemon gets it's ass raped when a truly powerful magical society turns it's attention on their tiny world.

The Netherese have conquered stretches of extradimension planes. They have achieved a general level of living above the Pokemon world. They are masters of reshaping their enviroment. They have even killed a god. The Pokemon have no chance, and if you weren't so blindingly biased, you'd notice this. Please fuck off until you can debate rationally.