New governor in washington state. PWNED.

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2004-12-24 08:23am

All Things Considered, December 23, 2004 · After a hand recount in the hotly disputed, topsy-turvy race for governor of Washington state, Democrat Christine Gregoire now appears to have won by 130 votes. The original count had Republican Dino Rossi the victor by 261 votes out of more than 2.8 million cast. NPR's Melissa Block talks with Gregoire.

From Here Go to the site. Listen to melissa block talking with gregoire. WOO HOO! Go Democracy!

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-12-24 09:00am

And of course, the Republican candidate is already stalling and pushing for more, which will be totally ignored by the millions of conservatives who continue to bash Gore for being a sore loserl.

Glocksman · Post by **Glocksman** » 2004-12-24 11:02am

From Here Go to the site. Listen to melissa block talking with gregoire. WOO HOO! Go Democracy!

Yeah, right.

It's suspicious that King county (a Democrat stronghold) happened to 'find' 700 or so 'lost' ballots after the initial results had Rossi winning by a slim margin and that the head of the King County Board of Elections is a elected position and the current person in that office is a Democrat.

She may or may not win but the recount shenanigans in King county (third recount, BTW. First 2 had Rossi winning) stink to high heaven of corruption.

It may be a victory for Democrats, but its no victory for democracy.

Depending upon their laws allow it, the best thing for WA. state to do would be to hold another election as the current set of ballots is tainted.

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2004-12-24 11:18am

Glocksman wrote:
From Here Go to the site. Listen to melissa block talking with gregoire. WOO HOO! Go Democracy!
Yeah, right.

It's suspicious that King county (a Democrat stronghold) happened to 'find' 700 or so 'lost' ballots after the initial results had Rossi winning by a slim margin and that the head of the King County Board of Elections is a elected position and the current person in that office is a Democrat.

She may or may not win but the recount shenanigans in King county (third recount, BTW. First 2 had Rossi winning) stink to high heaven of corruption.

It may be a victory for Democrats, but its no victory for democracy.

Depending upon their laws allow it, the best thing for WA. state to do would be to hold another election as the current set of ballots is tainted.

Puh-Fucking-lease. They are going by the law. I could turn the goddamned tables, too. how the fuck do 700 votes in a democratic stronghold go missing? I find that very odd. Justice will be served when she wins.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-12-24 11:22am

Somewhere after the claims of 'Don't be paranoid!' when a Diebold machine records three times as many votes for Bush as there were legitimate voters in it's county, I think sorting through everything and coming up with a few hundred, where there could be a few hundred more, is hardly newsworthy.

Glocksman · Post by **Glocksman** » 2004-12-24 11:28am

could turn the goddamned tables, too. how the fuck do 700 votes in a democratic stronghold go missing?

The VRWC snuck in and hid them because they knew the results would be this close?

That's only if you believe they existed initially to begin with.
Frankly I don't. Given both the timing of the 'find' and the person who 'found' the ballots, it sure smells like fraud.

But then again I really don't care who wins as I live at the opposite end of the country. It's horseshit though to claim that this is a victory for 'democracy' when it's nothing of the kind.

The courts will wind up deciding who the new Gov. is.

I think sorting through everything and coming up with a few hundred, where there could be a few hundred more, is hardly newsworthy.

Normally, I'd agree but in an election where the margins are this close, both parties would do anything to secure a victory, and the person who 'found' the ballots is an elected officeholder of one of the parties contesting the results, it's very newsworthy.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-12-24 11:31am

Chardok wrote:Puh-Fucking-lease. They are going by the law. I could turn the goddamned tables, too. how the fuck do 700 votes in a democratic stronghold go missing? I find that very odd. Justice will be served when she wins.

You'd have to ask the Democrat that "found" the votes. Exactly how is a Republican going to vanish ballots in a county that got a Democrat in charge anyway?

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2004-12-24 11:38am

This is exactly the situation for which a provision for a run-off election is needed. With margins this slim, it's essentially a statistical fallacy to claim either candidate has "won", since the number of fraudulent votes, miscounted votes, lost votes, extra votes, et cetera easily excedes the margin of victory. Conduct a runoff, this time with no third party candidates on the ballot, and see what happens. Or failing that, throw it to the legislature (which would end up with the Democrat winning anyway, but she would have legitimacy that she won't have with a 200 vote margin of victory after three recounts).

Marksist · Post by **Marksist** » 2004-12-24 03:19pm

nd of course, the Republican candidate is already stalling and pushing for more

Wow, what a hypocrite. I think a few weeks ago I saw this guy say in a TV interview that; "if I were the Democrat's nominee I'd just bow out gracefully."

Quadlok · Post by **Quadlok** » 2004-12-24 04:54pm

Marksist wrote:
nd of course, the Republican candidate is already stalling and pushing for more
Wow, what a hypocrite. I think a few weeks ago I saw this guy say in a TV interview that; "if I were the Democrat's nominee I'd just bow out gracefully."

What I found funny was that last night on the news the republican lawyers flatout stated that they would begin to look for uncounted Rossi ballots. Atleast the Democrats had the sense to say 'we want all votes counted,' even if they then only went after uncounted votes in heavily democratic King county.

Omega18 · Post by **Omega18** » 2004-12-24 05:16pm

Glocksman wrote:
From Here Go to the site. Listen to melissa block talking with gregoire. WOO HOO! Go Democracy!
Yeah, right.

It's suspicious that King county (a Democrat stronghold) happened to 'find' 700 or so 'lost' ballots after the initial results had Rossi winning by a slim margin and that the head of the King County Board of Elections is a elected position and the current person in that office is a Democrat.

The ballots were certainly not "lost," just initially incorrectly ruled invalid.

These were absentee ballots which were incorrectly originally identified by election officials as not having their signatures on file, and therefore were invalid, but upon further review discovered that they were on file, they just were not up on their computer system.

These were sealed absentee ballots kept through a reliable chain of custody after they had initially been received by King County, and there is absolutely no evidence to sugget they were somehow suddenly manufactured. They has simply initially incorrectly considered invalid due to a clerical error, the voters themselves had done nothing wrong when submitting the votes.

LapsedPacifist · Post by **LapsedPacifist** » 2004-12-24 09:00pm

It was my understanding that it wasn't three recounts, but rather the initial count, the automatic machine recount, and a hand recount paid for by the democrats. On the hand recount there was the issue of the mistakenly invalidated 500 ballots in King County.

LP

Post by **Beowulf** » 2004-12-24 09:20pm

Let's get a court to give us the names and addresses of those who might have bad ballots, look for the ballots that voted for Democrat, and call up those people, and only those people, to see if the ballot might be theirs.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-12-24 10:45pm

LapsedPacifist wrote:It was my understanding that it wasn't three recounts, but rather the initial count, the automatic machine recount, and a hand recount paid for by the democrats. On the hand recount there was the issue of the mistakenly invalidated 500 ballots in King County.

LP

This is correct.

Omega18 · Post by **Omega18** » 2004-12-24 11:46pm

Beowulf wrote:Let's get a court to give us the names and addresses of those who might have bad ballots, look for the ballots that voted for Democrat, and call up those people, and only those people, to see if the ballot might be theirs.

That's certainly not what happened in this case. You had a large number of SEALED ballots from all sorts of voters initially incorrectly ruled invalid, and this error was finally caught and corrected with the second recount. These were ALL the ballots with this issue in King County, and no-one knew how these votes would go for sure, since no-one had opened any of them, until they counted them. (The main reason the Republicans opposed them being counted is that they knew that in Democratic leaning King County, extra votes would probably not be in their favor.)

Tom_Aurum · Post by **Tom_Aurum** » 2004-12-24 11:58pm

The Diebold machines are just plain evil, someone should throw them in the trash before they cause any more trouble. Go with the "scantron" system by which I've been voting for the past few years. It's easier, and it leaves an easily viewed paper record JUST IN CASE we have stuff like this happening.

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2004-12-25 12:09am

Tom_Aurum wrote:Go with the "scantron" system by which I've been voting for the past few years. It's easier, and it leaves an easily viewed paper record JUST IN CASE we have stuff like this happening.

That's what we use up here for our municipal & provincial elections. We get the sheet, complete the arrow for the candidate(s), and then it gets scanned into the machine & automatically dumped in a safebox to prevent tampering or rescanning.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2004-12-25 12:11am

Do you hear that, Mr. Anderson? Its the sound of all of DU creaming its pants at once.

Glocksman · Post by **Glocksman** » 2004-12-25 12:23am

Omega18 wrote:
Glocksman wrote:
From Here Go to the site. Listen to melissa block talking with gregoire. WOO HOO! Go Democracy!
Yeah, right.

It's suspicious that King county (a Democrat stronghold) happened to 'find' 700 or so 'lost' ballots after the initial results had Rossi winning by a slim margin and that the head of the King County Board of Elections is a elected position and the current person in that office is a Democrat.
The ballots were certainly not "lost," just initially incorrectly ruled invalid.

These were absentee ballots which were incorrectly originally identified by election officials as not having their signatures on file, and therefore were invalid, but upon further review discovered that they were on file, they just were not up on their computer system.

These were sealed absentee ballots kept through a reliable chain of custody after they had initially been received by King County, and there is absolutely no evidence to sugget they were somehow suddenly manufactured. They has simply initially incorrectly considered invalid due to a clerical error, the voters themselves had done nothing wrong when submitting the votes.

Pardon me if I don't believe that one bit.

Like I said, it stinks to high heaven that these 'incorrectly ruled invalid' ballots just happened to be discovered in a heavily Democratic county by a Democrat who just happened to be a councilman who voted absentee due to the fact that he was busy campaigning for Kerry.

Some 'coincidence', eh?

Don't get me wrong, both parties are capable of and have pulled some very shady shit. The problem I have was with the OP implying that this was a victory for democracy.

From Here Go to the site. Listen to melissa block talking with gregoire. WOO HOO! Go Democracy!

This election was a lot of things, but a victory for democracy it ain't.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2004-12-25 01:12am

Thus the reason we all need to go with electronic voting...Yay Maryland. Anyway the idea that recounts somehow "find" lost votes or otherwise correct the initial incorrect vote is a load of crap. Anytiem the votes are this narrow either before or after a recount it is almost certain that the number of invalid, incorruect, and corrupt votes out there exceeds the difference between the leading candidates. While we hold that a one vote margin is enough to win I think we all know that it merely means that both sides were equally equiped to manufacture votes. It doesn't matter who recieved the most number of honest voters trying to elect them this election is a matter of who can find the most apparent legitimacy because any real legitimacy went out the window a long time ago.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-12-25 04:08am

Like I said, it stinks to high heaven that these 'incorrectly ruled invalid' ballots just happened to be discovered in a heavily Democratic county by a Democrat who just happened to be a councilman who voted absentee due to the fact that he was busy campaigning for Kerry.

The Secretary of State of Washington is Republican, and he let the recount go through.

And while we're at it, I think you've pretty much precluded yourself from ever making any Vast Right Wing Conspiracy cracks in the future.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-12-25 05:11am

Glocksman wrote:Pardon me if I don't believe that one bit.

Like I said, it stinks to high heaven that these 'incorrectly ruled invalid' ballots just happened to be discovered in a heavily Democratic county by a Democrat who just happened to be a councilman who voted absentee due to the fact that he was busy campaigning for Kerry.

Some 'coincidence', eh?

Don't get me wrong, both parties are capable of and have pulled some very shady shit. The problem I have was with the OP implying that this was a victory for democracy.

Get back to us when you have something more concrete than bad vibes.

Glocksman · Post by **Glocksman** » 2004-12-25 11:20am

HemlockGrey wrote:
Like I said, it stinks to high heaven that these 'incorrectly ruled invalid' ballots just happened to be discovered in a heavily Democratic county by a Democrat who just happened to be a councilman who voted absentee due to the fact that he was busy campaigning for Kerry.
The Secretary of State of Washington is Republican, and he let the recount go through.

And while we're at it, I think you've pretty much precluded yourself from ever making any Vast Right Wing Conspiracy cracks in the future.

Pardon me if I'm somewhat cynical on the subject of Democrats and election recounts, as I live in the infamous 'Bloody 8th' Congressional district of Indiana and I remember quite well when Leon Panetta and Co. ignored our state certified election results and 'recounted' just enough ballots to certify the Democrat as the 'winner' by 4 votes during the 1984 election.

The timing and manner of discovery of those ballots was enough to raise my eyebrows. Sure it could have been a coincidence, but was it?

BTW, the Repubs are going to play the same dishonest game according a report I read by going on a 'fishing expedition' in the eastern part of the state for similarly uncounted ballots.

At this rate it'll be June before a winner is seated.

Get back to us when you have something more concrete than bad vibes.

So you think that this was a victory for 'democracy'?

Glocksman · Post by **Glocksman** » 2004-12-25 11:23am

Forgot to add:
Some of my information on this is coming from Washingtonians on another board. If I'm operating off of bad information, please post links.

For example:

These were sealed absentee ballots kept through a reliable chain of custody after they had initially been received by King County

I'm being told the opposite at the other board.

Andrew J. · Post by **Andrew J.** » 2004-12-25 11:54am

Glocksman wrote:Like I said, it stinks to high heaven that these 'incorrectly ruled invalid' ballots just happened to be discovered in a heavily Democratic county by a Democrat who just happened to be a councilman who voted absentee due to the fact that he was busy campaigning for Kerry.

Some 'coincidence', eh?

Not really. If a lot of wrongly discounted Democratic votes had been found in a strongly Republican or evenly split county I might be suspicious. But the fact is that a certain number of legitimate votes are going to be thrown out everywhere, and in a Democratic county probability is that most of those votes are going to be for Democrats.