Imperial Guard vs. SW Empire

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Not sure if this has been done before, but in honor of my new avatar:

The Imperial Guard vs. The Empire

Objective: Control Armageddon

Assuming:
1) Fought on Armageddon

2) Both sides have knowledge of each others' capabilities and goals.

3) No reinforcements or orbital support.

4) Plenty of ground-based support, medical corps, engineering corps, etc.

5) Both sides have a reasonable amount of special weaponry within infantry units, e.g., Lascannons, Atgar Laser Cannons, Plasma Guns, Repeater Blasters, etc.

Imperial Guard Force:
- 6,500 Cadian Guardsmen, with special-issue environmental gear and reasonable amount of veteran units.
- 3 Platoons of Stormtroopers
- A contingent of Ratling Snipers
- 3 Armageddon-indigenous Deathworld Veteran Urban Snipers
- 1 Vindicare Assassin, assigned to assist with the vicious urban combat
- 50 Leman Russ Battle Tanks
- 35 Leman Russ Exterminators
- 10 Leman Russ Conquerors
- 45 Leman Russ Demolishers
- 15 Basilisks
- 5 Fixed Earthshakers
- 20 Griffons
- 1 Company of Mechanized Steel Legion Guardsmen
- 20 Hellhounds
- 5 Salamanders
- 5 Squadrons of Sentinels
- 2 Squadrons of Marauders

----------------------------

Imperial Force:
- 1,500 Stormtroopers
- 200 Scout Troopers
- 50 Scout Bikers
- 10 AT-ATs
- 35 AT-STs
- 20 AT-PTs
- 5 MT-ATs
- 3 Squadrons of TIE Bombers
- 1 Squadron of TIE Interceptors
- 20 Darktroopers
- 1 Dark Jedi

Who would control Armageddon?

[Cpt_Frank]

almost sure that has been done before.

[NecronLord]

why havent the IoM got any air support?

[Vympel]

Why are Stormtroopers so heavily outnumbered?

[Mr Bean]

Oh its been done at least once somewhere everything from Star-Flee with Pokemon back-up VS B5 to Hordge of Angrey French Pesansts VS Dark-Jedi

[Cpt_Frank]

Without the air support for the Guardsmen that's a gross mismatch and the Empire would kick the guards ass.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

why havent the IoM got any air support?

They do have air support:

- 2 Squadrons of Marauders

Why are Stormtroopers so heavily outnumbered?

Because that's how the Imperial Guard operates. Each Guardsman sucks-diddly-ucks but they are in such huge numbers that usually doesn't matter.


[/quote]

[His Divine Shadow]

I really think we need equal numbers here because the Imperial guard sucks because their enemies aren't humans too, but horrible uber-aliens.

Now we're having near firepower parity here and parity in pretty much everything.
Well the stormies have better armor.

[NecronLord]

Horrible uber aliens

on behalf of 40K uber aliens, I resent the term horrible

[Hotfoot]

I really think we need equal numbers here because the Imperial guard sucks because their enemies aren't humans too, but horrible uber-aliens.

Now we're having near firepower parity here and parity in pretty much everything.
Well the stormies have better armor.

I suppose you could say that lasguns and blaster rifles are similar in power, though it seems somehow wrong to compare the two.

Stormtroopers have better accuracy, better armor, better leadership, and better training than Imperial Guard, generally speaking.

This is a tough one though. Having only two squadrons of Marauders (how many are in a 40K Squadron? I forget) might put them at a disadvantage as far as air support, versus all those Imperial TIEs. However, with enough anti-air modified tanks, the IG should hold their own. That is, of course, we are assuming roughly equivilant power levels for weapons.

[His Divine Shadow]

I suppose you could say that lasguns and blaster rifles are similar in power, though it seems somehow wrong to compare the two.

Do elaborate.

[Hotfoot]

I suppose you could say that lasguns and blaster rifles are similar in power, though it seems somehow wrong to compare the two.

Do elaborate.

Gut feeling, not backed by any hard numbers. Truth is that I don't know off the top of my head what the power output of a lasgun is. I just know the statistics of their function within the game. Against a human target wearing no armor whatsoever, they will disable the target roughly half of the time, assuming the shot hits. Disable can mean anything from "knocked out" to "missing the business end of his head". On the other hand, a blaster hits Leia in the shoulder in RotJ, and she's still able to shoot a Stormtrooper. Now, for all we know, she was wearing some sort of covert armor, but that didn't seem to be the case. So I suppose that they could be considered to be roughly equal in power...but then that means that Bolters > E-11 Blaster Rifles...

[His Divine Shadow]

You do know that blasters have a variety of different power settings, that coupled with the likelyhood of Leia havin some kind of armor is the likeliest.

[Hotfoot]

You do know that blasters have a variety of different power settings, that coupled with the likelyhood of Leia havin some kind of armor is the likeliest.

Yes, I am aware of the power settings of blasters, but regardless, in that situtation, using anything other than "kill" would have been unlikely. As for the likelyhood of Leia having some sort of armor, I don't know. I mean, Stormtroopers, even in their armor, can only take one or two shots before going down. We see helmets for most of the strike team, so the might have had some form of light armor, but...*shrugs*

Like I said, it's a gut feeling, backed up by no hard numbers or figures. Of course, reliable numbers for 40K are notoriously difficult to come by.

[HemlockGrey]

I thought they wanted to capture the Rebel commanders, maybe?

Plus, it was a hipshot, and I thought it glanced off something...

[HemlockGrey]

Plus, you'll notice that whenever a blaster hits someone in the opening scene of ANH, they drop.

[His Divine Shadow]

Yes, I am aware of the power settings of blasters, but regardless, in that situtation, using anything other than "kill" would have been unlikely.

Battle has gone on for a while, ammo running low, switching to less powerfull setting will give you more shots, wich might be capable of seriously hurting a human with a good shot.
It might have even been a kill shot had it not hit the arm and a possible layer of conductive armor.

As for the likelyhood of Leia having some sort of armor, I don't know. I mean, Stormtroopers, even in their armor, can only take one or two shots before going down. We see helmets for most of the strike team, so the might have had some form of light armor, but...*shrugs*

Armor woven into strands of clothes is not new, it's been mentioned before, count Dookus cloak for example had such abilities.
As for the stormies, we dunno what power settings they where on.

Here are a few quotes on blasters:

Pg. 301: Madine was thrown backward into the metal wall as the killing beam burned through to his heart.

(ref: Darksaber)

Pg. 29: Exceptionaly powerful clone trooper blaster rifles: Max-power shot leaves a .5 m (1.6 ft) crater in any ferrocrete wall

(ref: Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections)

Han did. The Burning was a torture involving the use of a blaster set at low power, to scorch and sear the flesh off a prisoner, leaving only blood-smeared bone. Usually, a leg would be first, immobilizing the vicitim; then the rest of the skeleton was exposed, inch by inch. Any other prisoners could be made to watch, to break their will. The Burning seldom failed to obtain answers, if answers were to be hand; but in Han's opinion, no being who employed such methods deserved to live.

(ref: Han Solo at Star's End)

"Rebel blaster fire lifted the first three stormtroopers into the air and flung them against the sides of the walker."

(ref: Imperial Sourcebook)

Pg. 20: The blaster bolt that had killed Captain Sreas had scooped out a third of his upper chest, leaving behind a cauterized concavity into which the burned edges of the hole in his blouse were fused.

(ref: Tyrant's Test)

And some pics.
Here is a shot hitting an unarmored human:
http://hisshadow.123hostnow.com/misc/images/vapor.jpg

Here is Greedo:
http://hisshadow.123hostnow.com/misc/im ... greedo.jpg
Note that blasters are not good at penetration(of soft tissues at any rate), they act more like melta guns in most cases, this means that it's likely that most of Greedos gut is vaporized or boiled since smoke is coming out of his back.

HEre is a shot hitting a rebel in the shoulder, note what looks like a plume of vapor rising from his shoulder:
http://hisshadow.123hostnow.com/misc/im ... r_hit3.jpg

[Soulman]

According to fluff lasguns are very powerful, they can blast through stone walls and such. I would say that as far as basic infantry weapons go stormies and IG are pretty evenly matched.

As for armour it varies wildly from regiment to regiment. If you look at the new Cadian models they have got some hard armour although it doesn't give full body protection, troops from Catachan though pretty much wear vests and trousers. I'd say the stormies win here.

When it comes to armoured vehicles I'd say that the Guard wins out, as far as this battle goes anyway. Leman Russ MBTs should be able to take out AT-ATs with their battlecannon and lascannon. When you bring in the Conquerors and Vanquishers it gets worse.

The Dark Jedi is a threat though but the Imp Guard take on psykers comparable to Jedi and still win.

Adjusting the numbers for a more even battle I say it could go either way although the Guard have a slightly better chance.

[His Divine Shadow]

According to fluff lasguns are very powerful, they can blast through stone walls and such. I would say that as far as basic infantry weapons go stormies and IG are pretty evenly matched.

Stonewalls of what thickness?

It's obvious they generate thermal stress that causes the impact point the wall to explode with enough force to make a hole in the wall.

Now I suppose if we knew the thickness of such a thing, maybe someone could calc it.

[His Divine Shadow]

When it comes to armoured vehicles I'd say that the Guard wins out, as far as this battle goes anyway. Leman Russ MBTs should be able to take out AT-ATs with their battlecannon and lascannon. When you bring in the Conquerors and Vanquishers it gets worse.

Ok, what does the Leman Russ have then? Because AT-AT armor withstood blaster fire that is likely rated in the 300-600GJ rating.
The AT-AT itself can probably generate KT-level bolts without problem too.

The Dark Jedi is a threat though but the Imp Guard take on psykers comparable to Jedi and still win.

Where can I find info on psykers, I don't see why they are considered so dangerous.

[Hotfoot]

Fair enough. Still, it does feel more than a little weird to think of Boltguns as greater than blaster rifles.

Next up is accuracy. Guardsman have roughly a 50% hit rate, and a 25% wounding hit rate. Assuming that Stormtrooper armor is equal to a 4+ armor (comparing it to carapace doesn't seem too far off, though it could just be comparable to 40K flak, I suppose.), then we can figure out how many Guardsmen it would take to reliably take down a Stormtrooper in one volley.

[Cpt_Frank]

Where can I find info on psykers, I don't see why they are considered so dangerous.

that is purely from my memory, but IIRC they can forsee things during fight like Jedi/Sith, can communicate via telepathics, and they also receive some kind of special combat training with swords, just like Jedi/Sith, so I guess they're roughly equal.
Specially trained psykers also navigate the ships through the warp btw.

[Hotfoot]

The Dark Jedi is a threat though but the Imp Guard take on psykers comparable to Jedi and still win.

Where can I find info on psykers, I don't see why they are considered so dangerous.

Well, using Eldar Warlocks and Farseers as an example...

They have special armor that grants an invulnerable 4+ save (it blocks laspistols just as well as lascannons), they often carry weapons which are capable of penetrating tank armor (Witchblade), and even being used as a short-range returning projectile (Singing Spear). They have considerably better accuracy with ranged weapons than the average human, and much improved close-combat skills. They can use their minds as weapons that rival heavy weapons (Destructor: Template, S5, AP4, Assault 1), enhance the close-combat skills of their allies, and even conceal themselves and nearby allies with the power of their mind.

Farseers (the Jedi Masters, compared to the Warlocks), can essentially fry the brain of an enemy in a contest of will (Joe Guardsman is usually toast...officers fair a bit better, but not by much). They also are capable of using their abilities to help warn their allies of danger or improve their aim. Their most offensive ability is that of the Eldritch Storm. Ordinance Template, S3, AP-, and must take a morale check or be pinned (vs. infantry). Against vehicles, it has an AP of 2D6 (lowest armor I've ever seen is generally 10), and the vehicles are spun around in a random direction. They are also more capable at ranged combat and close combat than the warlocks.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Fair enough. Still, it does feel more than a little weird to think of Boltguns as greater than blaster rifles.

I would agree that bolters are more powerful than blasters. Think of it this way: We all know that an E-11 Blaster Rifle is a good representation of small-arms blasters on the whole. But an E-11 cannot do more than superficial damage to most starfighters, even the underside which is not likely to be very well-armored. However, a bolter can destroy many vehicles with well-placed shots (S 4, with 1d6 penetration vs. Armor of 10). Consider the rear armor of a Leman Russ. True, it may not be very well protected compared to the rest of the vehicle, but it is still quite well armored. The afore-mentioned lasgun that can blast through a stone wall can't even scratch this armor. It is my guess that the underside of an X-Wing is not nearly as well protected as the rear of a Leman Russ, thus, a bolter is more powerful than a blaster rifle

[consequences]

Have we ever seen an E-11 fired at an unshielded starfighter however?