F/A-22 purchase to be cut from 277 to 160

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F/A-22 purchase to be cut from 277 to 160

Post by Vympel »

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Another side-effect of the spiralling Iraq War costs. What's that Mr. Wolfowitz? We'll be greeted as liberators and Iraq's oil wealth will be able to pay the cost of reconstruction itself?

An excerpt:
The Air Force had planned to purchase 277 F/A-22s. Thompson said the Bush administration may leave funding largely intact for fiscal years 2006 and 2007 but then impose substantial cuts starting in 2008 and close out production at about 160 planes at the end of the decade.

"I think there are two challenges the Raptor faces. First of all, as the size of the production run has been cut back, the cost of each individual aircraft has gone up to the point where it has become controversial," Thompson said. "Secondly, threats have changed in a way that has led some policymakers to believe that air superiority is not as important as it used to be."

Tom Jurkowsky, a spokesman for Lockheed, said, "We have not been informed of any changes to the status of the program by either the Air Force or the Department of Defense."

Lockheed shares fell 2.66 percent, down $1.51 to $55.25 on the New York Stock Exchange.
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Post by Sir Sirius »

Wasn't the AF once planning on getting more then 700 F-22s?
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Post by Chris OFarrell »

Oh great. So at the end of the day we have a quagmire in Iraq the US is not going to get out of anytime soon. We have Bush spending cash willy nilly on things like the ABM system, LCS, proving ESP doesn't work AND the Striker Swarm of DOOM

And as a result. The US GI can't get the right colour body armour. Trucks and HUMVEES can't get the armour they need. The PBI's are being constently kept back WAY past their TOD dates because the US has no bloody reserves. The USAF is about to loose the core aircraft it needs to stay in the air domination business in the future. The A-10 is being scrapped because it looks too ugly, leaving nothing to fill the neich the Iraqi War proved was still fucking there.

Tell me, WHO thought having Rumsfeld as the SecDef in the US was a GOOD IDEA? Anyone?
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Re: F/A-22 purchase to be cut from 277 to 160

Post by Sebastin »

Vympel wrote:What's that Mr. Wolfowitz? We'll be greeted as liberators and Iraq's oil wealth will be able to pay the cost of reconstruction itself?
I guess he should have known that you go to war with the enemy you get, not the enemy you want.
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Re: F/A-22 purchase to be cut from 277 to 160

Post by Vympel »

Sebastin wrote:
I guess he should have known that you go to war with the enemy you get, not the enemy you want.
AHAHAHAHAHHA. Classic .... :lol:
Sir Sirius wrote:Wasn't the AF once planning on getting more then 700 F-22s?
750, then ~400, then 338, then 277 ...
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Post by Chmee »

Ultimately the designation F-22 will prove eerily prophetic ... when we can only afford 22 of them.
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Post by Falkenhayn »

Is there a point in buying it if at this quantity?
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Post by Chmee »

Falkenhayn wrote:Is there a point in buying it if at this quantity?
Was there ever a strong case for spending billions and billions on replacements for the Super Hornet and Striike Eagle that nobody else in the world can compete with today?

I'm all for heavy R&D on advanced systems, but replacing a huge Air Force and Navy fleet with ultra-expensive systems in an era where we have nobody to fight an air war with seems rather odd.
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Post by Howedar »

The F-22 has been in development for over a decade. When we need it, we have to already have it in or almost in production. This isn't WW2 where you can cobble together a world-beating fighter in three months.
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Post by Chmee »

Howedar wrote:The F-22 has been in development for over a decade. When we need it, we have to already have it in or almost in production. This isn't WW2 where you can cobble together a world-beating fighter in three months.
And I'm all for that ... do the R&D, build your prototype, build a training squadron of them .....

It goes against my nature, I've been a military aviation buff for a long time and I think fighter-interceptors are just about the closest thing we have to starships ... but it seems like the era of air supremacy with manned aircraft is just about at an end, and I'm not sure we do ourselves any favors sinking that much cash into these particular capabilities. I don't see how a dozen Islamic whackoes in a bunker are going to be any more dead if the JDAM dropped on them comes from an F-22 instead of an F-18, and that's the world we're living in now, not a world where we think we're going to be dogfighting 600 Sukhois over Germany.
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Post by Chris OFarrell »

Chmee wrote:
Howedar wrote:The F-22 has been in development for over a decade. When we need it, we have to already have it in or almost in production. This isn't WW2 where you can cobble together a world-beating fighter in three months.
And I'm all for that ... do the R&D, build your prototype, build a training squadron of them .....

It goes against my nature, I've been a military aviation buff for a long time and I think fighter-interceptors are just about the closest thing we have to starships ... but it seems like the era of air supremacy with manned aircraft is just about at an end, and I'm not sure we do ourselves any favors sinking that much cash into these particular capabilities. I don't see how a dozen Islamic whackoes in a bunker are going to be any more dead if the JDAM dropped on them comes from an F-22 instead of an F-18, and that's the world we're living in now, not a world where we think we're going to be dogfighting 600 Sukhois over Germany.
YEs, people are more concerned about this 'Islamic Whackoes' being able to subvert nations in popular revoloutions of fundementalist insanity, gaining access to well armed and trained militaries that have technology to match up against the best the US has today.

Like what if Saudi fell into Fundementalist hands? Or Indonesia? Or Pakistan? The whole idea of the F-22 is to be able to wipe the floor with contempery fighter technology.

We are nowhere near the end of manned Aircraft. Its going to be a LONG way from todays UAV's to aircraft capable of defeating human driven ones in Air to Air combat. Especaily when current UAV's can be taken out by a well equiped enemy simply by jamming their communications links. Perhaps in 50 years or so. But now? The USAF has NOTHING to replace the F-15 except the F-22. And the F-15 is simply not able to stand up with the 4th generation fighters comming into production these days.
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Post by Chmee »

Chris OFarrell wrote:
Like what if Saudi fell into Fundementalist hands? Or Indonesia? Or Pakistan? The whole idea of the F-22 is to be able to wipe the floor with contempery fighter technology.

We are nowhere near the end of manned Aircraft. Its going to be a LONG way from todays UAV's to aircraft capable of defeating human driven ones in Air to Air combat. Especaily when current UAV's can be taken out by a well equiped enemy simply by jamming their communications links. Perhaps in 50 years or so. But now? The USAF has NOTHING to replace the F-15 except the F-22. And the F-15 is simply not able to stand up with the 4th generation fighters comming into production these days.
I guess I'd look at what happened to Iran's air force when it fell to the fundamentalist whackoes .... half the competent officers were killed in the purges (for not being fundamentalist whackoes) and the lack of spares turned the air force into a joke in less than a decade. Only the Pakistanis actually have enough aircraft to form even a credible threat against any other NATO power, much less us, and since they have medium-range ballistic missile nukes, possession of some F-16's seems like the least of our worries.

50 years ... that's crystal ball reading. In 50 years we went from the Fokker triplane to landing on the moon. The research for advanced air-combat UAV's is being done today.

And ... who is building and deploying 4th-gen air combat craft that a Super Hornet couldn't take on? All the advantages in modern air combat are in command & control, advanced radars, and the best missiles. It didn't matter how good any of the Iraqi Mirages or MiGs were in the Gulf War because they couldn't even get in position to take a shot.

Keep building top-flight AWACS, keep making cutting-edge stealth strike planes to take out enemy command & control .... but deploying hundreds of expensive air superiority fighters when nobody else in the world is doing it? It's hard to justify.
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Post by phongn »

Chmee wrote:Was there ever a strong case for spending billions and billions on replacements for the Super Hornet and Striike Eagle that nobody else in the world can compete with today?
The Super Hornet is no at the top of its game. I'd hate to see them try and fight their way through well-handled Sukhois. The Strike Eagle is good, but its really a self-defending bomb truck rather than a pure fighter.
I'm all for heavy R&D on advanced systems, but replacing a huge Air Force and Navy fleet with ultra-expensive systems in an era where we have nobody to fight an air war with seems rather odd.
As you yourself said, we can't predict the future. It is a big gamble to cancel the F/A-22 and leave us with the aging F-15 force which is certainly not the best fighter in the world.
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Post by Chmee »

phongn wrote:
Chmee wrote:Was there ever a strong case for spending billions and billions on replacements for the Super Hornet and Striike Eagle that nobody else in the world can compete with today?
The Super Hornet is no at the top of its game. I'd hate to see them try and fight their way through well-handled Sukhois. The Strike Eagle is good, but its really a self-defending bomb truck rather than a pure fighter.
I'm all for heavy R&D on advanced systems, but replacing a huge Air Force and Navy fleet with ultra-expensive systems in an era where we have nobody to fight an air war with seems rather odd.
As you yourself said, we can't predict the future. It is a big gamble to cancel the F/A-22 and leave us with the aging F-15 force which is certainly not the best fighter in the world.
Which is why you never stop R&D ... but unless somebody else is actually deploying something with a shot at competing with you, why mass produce? It seems like one of those classic military blunders, gearing up to fight yesterday's war.
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Post by phongn »

Chmee wrote:Which is why you never stop R&D ... but unless somebody else is actually deploying something with a shot at competing with you, why mass produce? It seems like one of those classic military blunders, gearing up to fight yesterday's war.
High-end Sukhois are being deployed in various spots around the world. It isn't like the rest of the world is still using the MiG-23 swarm. R&D is good but is not so useful in the war you have now. It takes a lot time to produce a working fighter even if you have perfect blueprints available.
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Post by Chmee »

phongn wrote:
Chmee wrote:Which is why you never stop R&D ... but unless somebody else is actually deploying something with a shot at competing with you, why mass produce? It seems like one of those classic military blunders, gearing up to fight yesterday's war.
High-end Sukhois are being deployed in various spots around the world. It isn't like the rest of the world is still using the MiG-23 swarm. R&D is good but is not so useful in the war you have now. It takes a lot time to produce a working fighter even if you have perfect blueprints available.
Are any of those Sukhois being deployed in significant numbers in anything but a pure local air-defense role? By anybody with something remotely like AWACS C&C capability?

I don't mean to underestimate the competition, the Russkies still make some damned fine aircraft, but I'll go back to the Iraq experience ... the best MiGs and Mirages in the world didn't do them a bit of good. I'd rather spend the money on keeping our pilots trained to the edge of their skills, which is what we're kicking people's asses with.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Chmee wrote: I guess I'd look at what happened to Iran's air force when it fell to the fundamentalist whackoes .... half the competent officers were killed in the purges (for not being fundamentalist whackoes) and the lack of spares turned the air force into a joke in less than a decade.
The other half of the competent officers proceeded to kick the crap out of Iran for the first half of that decade though. The US is not without competent enemies in the world.

Only the Pakistanis actually have enough aircraft to form even a credible threat against any other NATO power, much less us, and since they have medium-range ballistic missile nukes, possession of some F-16's seems like the least of our worries.
Actually, given that Pakistan managed to make two gun type nuclear weapons fizzle, something that basically wasn't thought to be possibul before then, we probably do need to worry more about the conventional weapons the country has (all nicely adjacent to US forces in Afghanistan) then its nukes, for now anyway.

But anyway they know using nukes means they die, and we have countermeasures to nuclear missiles deployed and building in case they go wacko. But then what happens if one of those F-16's has a nuclear bomb or cruise missile, and we have no air superiority fighters to intercept it with? You cannot simply defend against what is seen as the largest threat, and ignore all the other ones.

50 years ... that's crystal ball reading. In 50 years we went from the Fokker triplane to landing on the moon.
Yeah, so we need to be building the most advanced possibul combat aircraft to counter all the new and more powerful aircraft, which will be developed during our planes service lives.
The research for advanced air-combat UAV's is being done today.
And they are easily fifteen years if not more from service. As it is, besides armed Predators, and an armed Predator is just not comparable to a major fixed wing jet, we are still toying with only a few prototypes of UCAV's for bombing missions. Those aircraft are still years from service. The requirements for an air-to-air UCAV are immensely more demanding. And of course, the issue of time lag in even satellite transmissions and the possibul jamming of those singles makes relying on UCAV's for air defence a quite absurd notion. Such an aircraft has little hope of being cheaper then an F/A-22 anyway, espically when the cost of remote controlling it (which would require fielding more communications satellites amount other expensive things) is factored in.

And ... who is building and deploying 4th-gen air combat craft that a Super Hornet couldn't take on?
Russia is already exporting fighters such as the Su-30 which are better then an F-15 and which have superior air to air missiles, both radar and infrared guided. The F/A-18 is fairly agile, but it has shit for speed, range and payload and is simply not comparable to a dedicated heavy air superiority fighter.

All the advantages in modern air combat are in command & control, advanced radars, and the best missiles. It didn't matter how good any of the Iraqi Mirages or MiGs were in the Gulf War because they couldn't even get in position to take a shot.
The US has the best command and control. On existing aircraft however its looking at equal radar at best and inferior missiles. The F/A-22 fixes the radar issue, and while our missiles are still outranged, its stealth and high sustained speed make that unimportant.

Keep building top-flight AWACS, keep making cutting-edge stealth strike planes to take out enemy command & control .... but deploying hundreds of expensive air superiority fighters when nobody else in the world is doing it? It's hard to justify.
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Post by Chmee »

The US has the best command and control. On existing aircraft however its looking at equal radar at best and inferior missiles. The F/A-22 fixes the radar issue, and while our missiles are still outranged, its stealth and high sustained speed make that unimportant.
Not to ignore the other points, which were valid ...

If the main issues are radar and missiles, all you need is a flexible platform, right? Because you can always upgrade missiles and radars on an existing platform. We did it with F-4's for over 20 years.

I have no objection to building defenses for realistic, present-day threats, but it simply isn't possible or rational to try to build defenses for every imaginable scenario. Should this country spend sixty or seventy billion for fighters because Czechoslovakia or Syria scrapes together the cash for a dozen Sukhois?

As to the example of a Pakistani F-16 carrying a gravity-bomb nuke ... well, we already have more than adequate air superiority fighters to knock down one of those, an F-22 doesn't get us any new capability in that area.
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Post by SirNitram »

This is pathetic. Fucking pathetic.

You can't keep flying the old jets. I certainly haven't heard of any new orders for the old versions, which means the physical jets, to say nothing of the equipment and designs, are aging. And that will get increasing dangerous, even outside of engaging the Next Gen jets of the world.

I am increasingly suspicious of the nature of the gutting of America's conventional, usable military. Is there a point when I can turn on my Conspiracy Theory node?
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Post by Howedar »

India currently flies 40 Su-30MKI's and is building 140 more, while China has in service not less than 270 Su-27 family aircraft. Neither of these nations is especially friendly to the United States, nor is this an extensive list of Su-27 variant aircraft.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Chmee wrote: Not to ignore the other points, which were valid ...

If the main issues are radar and missiles, all you need is a flexible platform, right? Because you can always upgrade missiles and radars on an existing platform. We did it with F-4's for over 20 years.
And we've been doing that with the F-15/14/16/18 for over 25 years now. The aircraft are at their limits and all new designs are necessary.

I have no objection to building defenses for realistic, present-day threats, but it simply isn't possible or rational to try to build defenses for every imaginable scenario. Should this country spend sixty or seventy billion for fighters because Czechoslovakia or Syria scrapes together the cash for a dozen Sukhois?
No, we should do it because China has orders for over 500 Sukhoi's, right now. That's the current threat, the future threat which the F/A-22 must counter for its own 20 years of service life, will be far greater. The F-4 Phantom and the F-15 Eagle both worked so well for so long because they where built far more powerful then anything else in the world when new. If we do not do the same and buy the F/A-22 then not only will we be giving up the chance for current technical superiority, we will also be crippling our fighter force in the future. That means we will need a replacement program much sooner, and that will cost all the more money.

As to the example of a Pakistani F-16 carrying a gravity-bomb nuke ... well, we already have more than adequate air superiority fighters to knock down one of those, an F-22 doesn't get us any new capability in that area.
Hurray, we can defeat the current threat! Clearly the threat will not change for twenty years. Too bad that even if that was true, the current threat also includes aircraft like the R-77 equipped Su-30 (which in Indian hands recently defeat USAF'S F-15's in exercises). We are already behind. We cannot fucking afford to let that situation stand, and allusions to air to air drones which probably won't be around until the F/A-22 has been handed down to the ANG are no excuse.
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Post by frigidmagi »

I am increasingly suspicious of the nature of the gutting of America's conventional, usable military. Is there a point when I can turn on my Conspiracy Theory node?
Has Nitram is aware, my paranoidia is already operating at 90% and climbing on this. I get jumpy when I find the airforce has plenty of money for psyhics but not enough for Jets. Didn't the CIA pour enough money into mental powers studies in the Cold War anyways?

I am even wondering if it is time to inoke the Will Rogers proverb.
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Post by Chmee »

No, we should do it because China has orders for over 500 Sukhoi's, right now. That's the current threat, the future threat which the F/A-22 must counter for its own 20 years of service life, will be far greater. The F-4 Phantom and the F-15 Eagle both worked so well for so long because they where built far more powerful then anything else in the world when new. If we do not do the same and buy the F/A-22 then not only will we be giving up the chance for current technical superiority, we will also be crippling our fighter force in the future. That means we will need a replacement program much sooner, and that will cost all the more money.
I find this the most persuasive case for F-22 acquisition, but then I was never arguing against F-22 acquisition ... we've already spent the dev money, the only question is how many to deploy. F-22 and F-35 give us platforms which we can build on for the next 20 years, and obviously we need to stay current. The question is the rate of acquisition, how many do we need to build per year over the next 10-15 years?

China is a serious issue, but I hope our force-needs projections don't include trying to fight a sustained air war over Chinese airspace. That's about as likely as the need to infect the mothership with a crippling virus from a Macintosh. If we're building a force capable of fighting them for possession of Taiwan ... well, I don't see them building a force to fight us for possession of Cuba. It would be kind of insane for them to do that, wouldn't it?
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Post by frigidmagi »

China is a serious issue, but I hope our force-needs projections don't include trying to fight a sustained air war over Chinese airspace. That's about as likely as the need to infect the mothership with a crippling virus from a Macintosh. If we're building a force capable of fighting them for possession of Taiwan ... well, I don't see them building a force to fight us for possession of Cuba. It would be kind of insane for them to do that, wouldn't it?
Has insane has a small island nation to attack us out of left field while already hip deep in a war with several other European and Native Powers?

I rather have the jet in enough numbers to face down anyone and not need it then be stuck in some shithole without air cover. But that's just dumb old me...
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Chmee wrote: I find this the most persuasive case for F-22 acquisition, but then I was never arguing against F-22 acquisition ... we've already spent the dev money, the only question is how many to deploy. F-22 and F-35 give us platforms which we can build on for the next 20 years, and obviously we need to stay current. The question is the rate of acquisition, how many do we need to build per year over the next 10-15 years?
The USAF'S wants 381. That's enough to give each of its ten Air Expeditionary Wings a single big squadron, with enough aircraft to cover maintenance, attrition and training. I say fund that many, and do it all at once. Dragging out production will simply make everything more expensive, even if it does make the cost impact be felt less hard (which is somtimes worthwhile)

With levels as small as 277 or worse 160, we are going to be losing a much larger percentage of the number we buy to training units and spare parts and maintenance will become a big bitch, since the USAF'S won't be training enough ground crews or ordering spare parts in large enough numbers to be efficient. That issue has screwed over more then one aircraft program in the past and because of it our C-5 Galaxy fleet has basically been forever crippled.

China is a serious issue, but I hope our force-needs projections don't include trying to fight a sustained air war over Chinese airspace.
It's an unlikely situation. But as you brought up, we don't have a crystal ball to see the future with and we can only project our opponent's intentions so far. China won't be behind forever, and there is no reason to let them get ahead any earlier.

That's about as likely as the need to infect the mothership with a crippling virus from a Macintosh.
Indeed that is true, as the Projected Alien Threat for the 21st Century runs Unix.

If we're building a force capable of fighting them for possession of Taiwan ... well, I don't see them building a force to fight us for possession of Cuba. It would be kind of insane for them to do that, wouldn't it?
The US has something of a longstanding commitment and national interest in the security of Taiwan (which produces a lot of military electronics components among other things). That isn't the case of China and Cuba.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
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