Wes Janson: A question

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-12-30 06:02pm

Okay, I was just watching TESB for the first time in awhile, when something struck me during the Battle of Hoth. I'm pretty sure I just watched Wes Janson die, or at least get shot down, yet he appears a lot later in the EU. What gives?

Sonnenburg · Post by **Sonnenburg** » 2004-12-30 06:12pm

Where did you see this?

Soontir C'boath · Post by **Soontir C'boath** » 2004-12-30 06:22pm

Janson was Wedge's tailgunner. If he died, there was no way he could've shot the towcable.

Deathstalker · Post by **Deathstalker** » 2004-12-30 06:29pm

IIRC, Rogue 2, who was responsible for finding Han and Luke after they had their camping trip, was shot down. As mentioned, Wes was Wedge's gunner.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-12-30 06:30pm

No, after the tow cable was used. They were coming for a pass on a second walker and the speeder was shot right behind Luke; I saw Janson's face in the shot right before with the characteristic "this fighter's going down" sparks shooting everywhere, then it went to an external shot and the rear of the speeder was blasted apart and in flames. That'd be a hell of a thing to survive.

President Sharky · Post by **President Sharky** » 2004-12-30 06:40pm

Are you confusing Janson with Zev Senesca?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-12-30 06:49pm

The guy shot down was Zev and he didn't survive the flames.

In fact the only guy who defies convention of novel death is Hobbie.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2004-12-30 08:32pm

Yeah Hobbie got stood on by an ATAT IIRC. If he did survive he must be the shortest pilot in the universe.

Burak Gazan · Post by **Burak Gazan** » 2004-12-30 08:37pm

Actually, I think you mean Dack, Luke's backseater -- probably a bad day, having his console explode in his face, THEN getting homogenized by an AT-AT when Luke couldn't pull him from the wreckage

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-12-30 09:45pm

Lord Pounder wrote:Yeah Hobbie got stood on by an ATAT IIRC. If he did survive he must be the shortest pilot in the universe.

No. According to the novelisation, Hobbie kamikazed Veer's ATAT, taking out the forward 'head' with the impact. He was dying at the time, it was pure agony to move. He thought "I could either try and go back to base, and hope for a medevac, or take down one more of these arseholes."

Aaron Alston concedes it was a mistake on his site. Check it out, he's a pretty cool guy. (and I just tried to find it via Google... and couldn't...

)

However, if you go by the film, we don't see Hobbie die at all. We do see a snowspeeder approach an ATAT with the intent to crash into it, and the ATAT swats it away with blasterfire. That may have been Hobbie's speeder, if so there is no way he survived. But there isn't anyway to be sure.

Hobbie is the guy who says "Two fighters against a Star Destroyer?" in that makeshift pilot's briefing, right?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-12-30 09:52pm

Actually if I remember they reconciled by saying that Hobbie and Veers in essence collided but it gave Veers his injury(Later EU goes into that's how he lost a leg I believe) and Hobbie was only presumed dead and considered to be truly one of the absolute luckiest bastards alive.

And yeah, he was the guy would chimed to Leia's statment.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2004-12-30 10:33pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Actually if I remember they reconciled by saying that Hobbie and Veers in essence collided but it gave Veers his injury(Later EU goes into that's how he lost a leg I believe) and Hobbie was only presumed dead and considered to be truly one of the absolute luckiest bastards alive.

And yeah, he was the guy would chimed to Leia's statment.

On that note, Hobbie characterizes himself as a bacta-intensive pilot in Starfighters of Adumar.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-12-31 03:04am

Bleh. I still want to see Veers utter a line beginning with the phrase "I killed you, Mr. Janson; I watched you die."

Petrosjko · Post by **Petrosjko** » 2004-12-31 10:32am

Stofsk wrote:Aaron Alston concedes it was a mistake on his site. Check it out, he's a pretty cool guy. (and I just tried to find it via Google... and couldn't... )

Aaron Allston's homepage has the stunningly original url of http://www.aaronallston.com

Pertinent quote from the FAQ-

Isn't Hobbie Dead?

Many readers have noted that in the novelization of The Empire Strikes Back, Hobbie crashes his snowspeeder into an Imperial walker and dies.
Well, since Hobbie appears in the X-Wing: Rogue Squadron comics from Dark Horse, and those stories take place after Return of the Jedi and before the start of the novel Rogue Squadron, that's not something I have to worry about; obviously, he survived.
According to Michael A. Stackpole, Hobbie did crash at some point in the Hoth combat, but survived after a considerable amount of bacta treatment.
Occasional discrepancies pop up between movies, novels, technical references, and gaming materials. As writers, we simply have to choose between the differing interpretations of events — based on logic and need — and hope that everything works out.

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2004-12-31 10:41am

Well, that must be a really big discrepancy between movie and novel.

While in the novel some other AT-AT destroys the generator and Veers' AT-AT is rammed by Hobbie before that, the movie shows it TOTALLY different. Here, the snowspeeder is simply shot down by Veers' AT-AT just before they destroy the generators by themselves.

Going by the canon herachy, the movie ranks over the novel, therefore the crash never happened.

Soontir C'boath · Post by **Soontir C'boath** » 2004-12-31 11:58am

Petrosjko wrote:*snip*

That would be one hell of a rescue for Hobbie considering they already practically evacuated the planet.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2005-01-10 10:47am

I just watched the scene again. It was in fact Janson.

Luke: "Rogue 2, are you all right?"

Janson [off screen]: "Yeah." [Switch to Rogue 2's cockpit] "I'm with you, Rogue Leader."

Luke: "Well set harpoon, I'll cover for you."

Janson: "Coming around."

Luke: "Watch that crossfire, boys."

Janson (to Wedge): "Set for Position 3. Steady."

Luke: "Stay tight and low. This is it!"

[Wedge and Janson's speeder is hit in the rear area, which explodes.]

Janson: "AHHHHH!"

[Luke's speeder is hit. He starts to go down.]

Luke: "Hobbie! I've been hit!"

So, not only were Janson and Wedge shot down, but Hobbie was still in the air at the time. Wedge was Rogue 3 and his gunner was Rogue 2, who he had addressed as Janson while taking down the first walker, with the line "Good shot, Janson!" So we know that Rogue 2 = Wes Janson, and that he was shot down.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-01-10 11:18am

You described Zev. Zev was the guy who got shot down. He was also the guy who rescued Luke and Han earlier.

McC · Post by **McC** » 2005-01-10 11:20am

Sorry, Rogue, but you're on crack. Janson is Wedge's gunner. Period.

Rogue 2 is Zev Senesca, another pilot. Zev found Luke and Han. We are shown Janson when he cries, "Cable out! Let her go!" when Wedge is tripping the first walker. He looks nothing like Zev (who I always thought looked a bit like Wedge). IMO, he looks a lot more like one of the Y-wing pilots from ROTJ.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2005-01-10 11:44am

*Sigh*

Wedge and Janson took down the first walker. If Janson was not Rogue 2 and neither was Wedge, why in hell did Luke say "Steady, Rogue 2" to one of them while they were tying up the walker's legs?

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-01-10 11:52am

Rogue 9 wrote:*Sigh*

Wedge and Janson took down the first walker. If Janson was not Rogue 2 and neither was Wedge, why in hell did Luke say "Steady, Rogue 2" to one of them while they were tying up the walker's legs?

BECAUSE ROGUE 2 is ZEV SENESCA, which we've only been trying to fucking explain to you all throughout this goddamn thread.

Look at the bloody end credits.

[EDIT] Luke calls Wedge 'Rogue 3', and Wes Janson is Rogue 3's GUNNER. Wes doesn't have a Rogue-designation.

McC · Post by **McC** » 2005-01-10 11:52am

Wedge and Janson were Rogue 3. Zev and (someone) were Rogue 2.

Luke: "Rogue 3!"
Wedge: "Copy, Rogue Leader."
Luke: "Wedge, I've lost my gunner. You'll need to make this shot. Come around on the next pass, I'll cover for you."
Wedge: "Coming around, Rogue Leader."
Luke: "Steady, Rogue 2."
(from memory, so some lines may not be exact)

He's addressing two different speeders in that scene. First he's talking to Wedge about taking down that walker, then he's talking to Zev in Rogue 2 about something else altogether. We later see Zev with a bloody face, so Luke might've been saying "Steady, Rogue 2" in response to a near-hit or something.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2005-01-10 11:57am

Stofsk wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:*Sigh*

Wedge and Janson took down the first walker. If Janson was not Rogue 2 and neither was Wedge, why in hell did Luke say "Steady, Rogue 2" to one of them while they were tying up the walker's legs?
BECAUSE ROGUE 2 is ZEV SENESCA, which we've only been trying to fucking explain to you all throughout this goddamn thread.

If this is true, then Luke saying "Steady, Rogue 2" there made no sense. As such, we have three options:

1.) Luke is a total incompetent and doesn't even know the designations and callsigns of his own squadron.

2.) Zev and either Wedge or Wes got out of their speeders at some point in the battle and traded seats.

3.) Wes was Rogue 2.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-01-10 12:02pm

Rogue 9 wrote:If this is true, then Luke saying "Steady, Rogue 2" there made no sense.

1.) Luke is a total incompetent and doesn't even know the designations and callsigns of his own squadron.

You're a total idiot.

He called Wedge ROGUE THREE, then later on, called ROGUE TWO to be steady (and it's easy to rationalise it as Luke spotting Zev in trouble, while covering Wedge).

2.) Zev and either Wedge or Wes got out of their speeders at some point in the battle and traded seats.

3.) Wes was Rogue 2.

NO, BECAUSE ZEV IS ROGUE 2! For fuck's sake, how many times do we have to TELL YOU! Look at the fucking end credits. Zev is Rogue Two, Wedge is Rogue Three, Wes is Wedge's GUNNER (ie he HAS no Rogue designation).

McC · Post by **McC** » 2005-01-10 12:05pm

Stofsk, chill

Rogue, re-watch the segment since you seem to have it available. Watch the whole segment, starting with "Rogue three!" from Logue and ending with "Rogue two?" "Yeah, I'm with ya Rogue Leader." Janson is Wedge's gunner. Rogue Two is clearly a pilot with a gunner of his own. Just re-watch it, and I'm fairly sure you'll see what's going on.