US deficit of 11.1 Trillion acording to corporate accounting

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2004-12-30 08:37pm

http://www.scr ivener.net/2004/12/you-thought-2004-federal-deficit-was.html

....

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-30 09:07pm

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

Your national deficit in one year is around the total national debt Canada has. Holy shit you Americans spend a lot.

Brian

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2004-12-30 09:26pm

eh, its all play money anyway. not like anyone is goingto call us on it.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2004-12-30 09:27pm

Well, there's a cliff up ahead, the bus's at full speed, and the driver has his hands off the wheel....or some corny saying.

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » 2004-12-30 09:34pm

Always wanted to be like those cool people in Weimar Germany, taking their wheelbarrow of currency home from payroll .......

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2004-12-30 09:40pm

Shinova wrote:Well, there's a cliff up ahead, the bus's at full speed, and the driver has his hands off the wheel....or some corny saying.

Shoot the hostage!

Wait...

Post by **weemadando** » 2004-12-30 10:18pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:eh, its all play money anyway. not like anyone is goingto call us on it.

Though I'd laugh my arse off if someone did. Can you imagine the economic consequences worldwide if suddenly everyone decided to cash in their chips?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2004-12-30 10:22pm

weemadando wrote:
Enforcer Talen wrote:eh, its all play money anyway. not like anyone is goingto call us on it.
Though I'd laugh my arse off if someone did. Can you imagine the economic consequences worldwide if suddenly everyone decided to cash in their chips?

Yes we invaded

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-12-30 10:56pm

This thread is starting to take a turn for the silly, but seriously, it's rather disturbing that the government announces budget figures based on simple cash accounting, with no attempt whatsoever to include present value of future debt obligations.

I had no idea the sheer quantity was so high. The government's total liabilities increased by more than ELEVEN TRILLION FUCKING DOLLARS IN ONE YEAR, FOR BOB'S SAKE! Of that, more than 9 trillion dollars is in Medicare alone, which begs the question: what was changed in Medicare this year?

muse · Post by **muse** » 2004-12-30 11:18pm

Darth Wong wrote:The government's total liabilities increased by more than ELEVEN TRILLION FUCKING DOLLARS IN ONE YEAR, FOR BOB'S SAKE! Of that, more than 9 trillion dollars is in Medicare alone, which begs the question: what was changed in Medicare this year?

Dr. Evil made a demand for...TEN THOUSAND BILLION DOLLARS!!....and the US government had to find some place to bury the losses where people would not look too closely.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-12-30 11:41pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:eh, its all play money anyway. not like anyone is goingto call us on it.

Eventually it will begin to seriously compromise investor confidence and that will hurt the US economy.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2004-12-31 12:10am

I know. but the rrapture will save us by then.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-12-31 12:23am

Enforcer Talen wrote:I know. but the rrapture will save us by then.

Not to worry, the Republicans will solve the problem with tax cuts.

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2004-12-31 12:45am

Darth Wong wrote:
Enforcer Talen wrote:I know. but the rrapture will save us by then.
Not to worry, the Republicans will solve the problem with tax cuts.

Actually, they could do a small bit of help if they could actually privatise Social Security...

And if hard-liners got their way cutting Medicare probably wouldn't hurt the deficit either.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2004-12-31 12:50am

Straha wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Enforcer Talen wrote:I know. but the rrapture will save us by then.
Not to worry, the Republicans will solve the problem with tax cuts.
Actually, they could do a small bit of help if they could actually privatise Social Security...

And if hard-liners got their way cutting Medicare probably wouldn't hurt the deficit either.

1 decade without SS and Medicare, and that little debt will be gone.

Seriously though, all you economics guys, how much of the debt is interest owned on bonds? Its quite a fair chunk of it, isn't it?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-12-31 12:51am

Straha wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Enforcer Talen wrote:I know. but the rrapture will save us by then.
Not to worry, the Republicans will solve the problem with tax cuts.
Actually, they could do a small bit of help if they could actually privatise Social Security...

Read: eliminate Social Security. Honestly, if people are just investing their own money in the stock market as "social security", why should the government be involved in this process as a middleman at all?

And if hard-liners got their way cutting Medicare probably wouldn't hurt the deficit either.

Since Medicare obligations increased by 9 trillion dollars in the last year alone under this supposedly conservative administration, I think this would be the wrong horse to bet on for that solution.

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba · Post by **Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba** » 2004-12-31 12:58am

Shit, on a some horrifically preposterous level, this is funny.

tharkûn · Post by **tharkûn** » 2004-12-31 12:58am

That 11 trillion dollar deficit is what happens when you count the cost of medicare and social security for the next 75 years. Any country with similar demagraphics and social liabilities is going to generate massive numbers like that. Yes Medicare and Social Security need to be changed or they will blow up later, but in all honesty France, Germany, and Japan are going to explode first. Their debts loads are far higher, they get a far more diminished returned on higher taxes, and they have higher per capita liabilities.

Not to worry, the Republicans will solve the problem with tax cuts.

If Bush is serious about a spending freeze, and he manages to deliver anything close to that, it will more than work.

Long term tax cuts likely are benificial, maybe not Bush's particular style, but in my hunch is that in 30 or 40 years the short term revenue loss will be more than recouped by excess economic growth. The real budget killer always has been the spending side of the coin. Tax cuts + massive new entitlements = bad idea.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-12-31 01:38am

tharkûn wrote:That 11 trillion dollar deficit is what happens when you count the cost of medicare and social security for the next 75 years. Any country with similar demagraphics and social liabilities is going to generate massive numbers like that.

They are? An increase equivalent to roughly the entire GDP in just one year? That does suggest that someone piled on rather considerable extra liabilities in a short time, does it not? Can we just chalk this up to the size of the country in question when it was so much lower a year earlier, or are you saying that this kind of annual increase is typical?

Tzeentch · Post by **Tzeentch** » 2004-12-31 01:58am

tharkûn wrote:Yes Medicare and Social Security need to be changed or they will blow up later,

Those are impressive numbers for medicare, but I'd like to see evidence for the social security crisis. I've done some research on the subject, and from what I can see, it's an imaginary problem created and marketed by ideological proponents of privatization.

but in all honesty France, Germany, and Japan are going to explode first.

I don't know about japan, they've always been a little screwed up, but the european socialist states are doing pretty well for themselves. I'd be interested to see a link prophecying doom for them before we crash.

If Bush is serious about a spending freeze, and he manages to deliver anything close to that, it will more than work.

Oh, yes. Then we will just have all the debt we've currently racked up...

Long term tax cuts likely are benificial, maybe not Bush's particular style, but in my hunch is that in 30 or 40 years the short term revenue loss will be more than recouped by excess economic growth. The real budget killer always has been the spending side of the coin. Tax cuts + massive new entitlements = bad idea.

Unless, of course, people save their tax cut money instead of investing it in our economy, because making an investment looks like a dumb idea in what appears to be a country being managed into the ground...

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2004-12-31 02:43am

Tzeentch wrote:
tharkûn wrote:Yes Medicare and Social Security need to be changed or they will blow up later,
Those are impressive numbers for medicare, but I'd like to see evidence for the social security crisis. I've done some research on the subject, and from what I can see, it's an imaginary problem created and marketed by ideological proponents of privatization.

I would suggest going through the site I linked to above more thouroughly. It's actually quite informative at times about Social security.

http://www.scrive ner.net/2004/12/is-social-security-trust-fund-worth.html
is of particular note.

but in all honesty France, Germany, and Japan are going to explode first.

I don't know about japan, they've always been a little screwed up, but the european socialist states are doing pretty well for themselves. I'd be interested to see a link prophecying doom for them before we crash.[/quote]

Their populations are in serious decline, I think Italy is about to keel over with France in quick pursuit. It's late, but I'll see what I can do for you about a link tommorow.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-12-31 02:54am

Realistically, what this means is that they're setting up future administrations for political failure. Medicare and Social Security are programs whose present-value liabilities are calculated based on the assumption that all promises and plans currently in place (as well as any increases promised by the present administration) will be carried out and set in stone. Realistically, they can always be changed by a future administration (far more easily than a legally binding contract such as a collective bargaining agreement, for example), but only at a steep political price. It will always be far more politically costly to cut something back than to not increase it in the first place.

But I would still like to know what was done to Medicare to increase its promised outlays by such a large amount.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-12-31 04:17am

Anyone else think Japan or China might start selling off bonds in the near future? Suck to be the dollar then.

Alex Moon · Post by **Alex Moon** » 2004-12-31 04:53am

HemlockGrey wrote:Anyone else think Japan or China might start selling off bonds in the near future? Suck to be the dollar then.

Not if you are in an export industry.

China and India won't be selling off bonds anytime soon. They need a strong dollar to protect their export sectors.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2004-12-31 09:31am

Alex Moon wrote:
HemlockGrey wrote:Anyone else think Japan or China might start selling off bonds in the near future? Suck to be the dollar then.
Not if you are in an export industry.

China and India won't be selling off bonds anytime soon. They need a strong dollar to protect their export sectors.

What happens if China and Japan starts to strong-arm the US over some issue via the dollar threat?