Tsunamis in the Indian Ocean

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2004-12-30 10:10pm

It looks like the final death toll might get close to 175,000 -- and that's only those killed by the earthquakes and tsunamis. As everyone has been saying, disease could easily double it.

kheegster · Post by **kheegster** » 2004-12-31 02:34am

Lord_Woodlouse wrote:So far the British government has contributed more than the US and EU (of which it is ALSO a contributor) combined.

This is some uncharacteristicly fast movement on behalf of our nation.

You'd be far more generous if you had relatives in the affected countries, which is the case with the British Asian community.

CDS · Post by **CDS** » 2004-12-31 03:03am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:It looks like the final death toll might get close to 175,000 -- and that's only those killed by the earthquakes and tsunamis. As everyone has been saying, disease could easily double it.

I've been hearing 400,000 without disease[/url]

salm · Post by **salm** » 2004-12-31 05:42am

why is it so hard for western nations to pump out, say, a billion? i mean a billion would be only a fraction of what is speant on military budgets IIRC.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2004-12-31 06:58am

salm wrote:why is it so hard for western nations to pump out, say, a billion? i mean a billion would be only a fraction of what is speant on military budgets IIRC.

Because it requires a special finance bill under most of our constitutions. Congress is not in session here--and in most other western countries for a long block of time around the Christmas holiday as well--and then when Congress comes back they'd have to pass a supplementary funding bill to provide that much money, since it's rarely available in your discretionary spending funds.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2004-12-31 07:06am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
salm wrote:why is it so hard for western nations to pump out, say, a billion? i mean a billion would be only a fraction of what is speant on military budgets IIRC.
Because it requires a special finance bill under most of our constitutions. Congress is not in session here--and in most other western countries for a long block of time around the Christmas holiday as well--and then when Congress comes back they'd have to pass a supplementary funding bill to provide that much money, since it's rarely available in your discretionary spending funds.

ah, ok, i see. that sucks. we have the capability and intention to help more than we do now but this capability is blocked because people are on vacation and because of some formal issues. that sucks.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2004-12-31 08:34am

salm wrote:
ah, ok, i see. that sucks. we have the capability and intention to help more than we do now but this capability is blocked because people are on vacation and because of some formal issues. that sucks.

Yes. Anyway, it would be wrong to say we're not helping enough because we don't care about third world countries--the USA, for example, still has 3,000 missing from the tsunami, and they are quite possibly all dead.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2004-12-31 08:42am

The USS Abe Lincon battlegroup arrives in Sumatra today. The desalinization systems of the fleet can provide fresh water for thousands.

Lonestar and his boys should be arriving soon too.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-12-31 12:14pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:The USS Abe Lincon battlegroup arrives in Sumatra today. The desalinization systems of the fleet can provide fresh water for thousands.

Lonestar and his boys should be arriving soon too.

That's not a very practical method for supply water ashore, warships don't produce any really huge fresh water surplus and there is the issue of how to delivery it ashore. Thousands is good, but its hundreds of thousands minimal who need it.

The embarked Marines should have some portable reverse osmosis gear, but if they go ashore and start setting it up, they'd probably have to use most of that output for their own purposes.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-12-31 12:50pm

The RN has sent a couple of destroyers to help, what little they can do. The charity figure for the UK has also gone up to £45M in a day and there's going to be a 3-minute silence next Wednesday.

Indonesia has also stopped recording corpse counts. There's simply too many people dead and even flat out burying them isn't enough. There are literally entire streets filled with bonfires for cremating the dead where they rest and trying to control disease.

I suspect we'll never know the true figure of dead, but it could easily be over quarter of a million.

CDS · Post by **CDS** » 2004-12-31 12:57pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:I suspect we'll never know the true figure of dead...

Thats something I never thought I'd ever hear unless it was out of an history book...

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-12-31 12:59pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote: I suspect we'll never know the true figure of dead, but it could easily be over quarter of a million.

That's likely true. Many of these areas probably don't have very good census records in the first place, and comparing those against a future census (with allotments for allot of other factors) may be the only way to determine a body count. That method's had to be our source of information for more then one human tragedy before.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-12-31 01:11pm

CDS wrote: Thats something I never thought I'd ever hear unless it was out of an history book...

Even if they had a state-of-the-art computing system, massive infrastructure support and enough manpower, there's still far too much carnage and death to record everyone. I'm not even getting into those that simply got washed away, pulverised or the impending problem of disease which requires cadaver incineration.

The scale of this thing is beyond comprehension, whole towns have been blitzed and even islands. This is easily the fourth largest disaster of its type.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2004-12-31 01:15pm

CDS wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:I suspect we'll never know the true figure of dead...
Thats something I never thought I'd ever hear unless it was out of an history book...

one thing is certain, many people will be rethinking life's priorities.... myself included.

Petrosjko · Post by **Petrosjko** » 2004-12-31 01:23pm

At this point counting the dead is only an act of macabre curiosity. Beyond dealing with the medical concerns of having so many corpses laying around, the priority has to be on getting food, water, treatment and shelter set up for as many people as can possibly be saved.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2004-12-31 02:50pm

US 350 Million

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-12-31 02:54pm

Petrosjko wrote:At this point counting the dead is only an act of macabre curiosity. Beyond dealing with the medical concerns of having so many corpses laying around, the priority has to be on getting food, water, treatment and shelter set up for as many people as can possibly be saved.

Well known the death toll is important so you know how many survivors you are dealing with.

Petrosjko · Post by **Petrosjko** » 2004-12-31 03:14pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:Well known the death toll is important so you know how many survivors you are dealing with.

Good point, though to be honest it sounds like it'd be easier to head count the survivors than dig through the bodies right now.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-12-31 04:32pm

At least enough aid is going through now. It obviously wasn't seen as such a major thing at first until nations had observed the results a little and then donated a significant amount of money (the £15M and £18M from the UK and US respectively was pitiful).

The problems now are food and water. Five million are exhausted and without these essentials, disease and aftershocks won't have a chance to become a threat against them.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2004-12-31 06:13pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:At least enough aid is going through now. It obviously wasn't seen as such a major thing at first until nations had observed the results a little and then donated a significant amount of money (the £15M and £18M from the UK and US respectively was pitiful).

The problems now are food and water. Five million are exhausted and without these essentials, disease and aftershocks won't have a chance to become a threat against them.

Dude? STFU about how much government aid got out quick. It's a meaningless number.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-12-31 06:32pm

Beowulf wrote: Dude? STFU about how much government aid got out quick. It's a meaningless number.

Dude, no. It's not.

I don't give a shit if you think it's "meaningless". I dare you to say that to anyone involved in the tragedy, I'm sure they'll understand. "Oh, it's okay. We were holding out for a real kicker in the corpse count before we'd send the big bucks."

Post by **Beowulf** » 2004-12-31 07:14pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:
Beowulf wrote: Dude? STFU about how much government aid got out quick. It's a meaningless number.
Dude, no. It's not.

I don't give a shit if you think it's "meaningless". I dare you to say that to anyone involved in the tragedy, I'm sure they'll understand. "Oh, it's okay. We were holding out for a real kicker in the corpse count before we'd send the big bucks."

The fact that the US government has now increased the aid to 350 million, in addition to sending immediately usefully things over there, is meaningful. It takes time for bearucracies to get it into gear.

Stop acting like everything can occur instantly.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2004-12-31 07:33pm

The Abraham Lincoln herself can process 90,000 gallons of drinking water per hour, which should help.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-12-31 07:52pm

Beowulf wrote: The fact that the US government has now increased the aid to 350 million, in addition to sending immediately usefully things over there, is meaningful. It takes time for bearucracies to get it into gear.

Stop acting like everything can occur instantly.

I'm under no impression it can. I'm saying it was a piss poor initial effort because of that fact which has now been upgraded to the scale the tragedy requires.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2004-12-31 09:05pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:
Beowulf wrote: The fact that the US government has now increased the aid to 350 million, in addition to sending immediately usefully things over there, is meaningful. It takes time for bearucracies to get it into gear.

Stop acting like everything can occur instantly.
I'm under no impression it can. I'm saying it was a piss poor initial effort because of that fact which has now been upgraded to the scale the tragedy requires.

Please, how soon did those ships and Marines get tasked? Thats the infrastructure needed to deliever aid. Throwing money at the problem is meaningless. I'm glad that goverments and organizations are coming up with litterly millions of dollars for the relief, and I'm glad people are donating generously, but for a goverment to scribble out a check and feel done is BS. The US (and other countries) are donating assets to the region that will make relief easier and quicker.